Tell me about Hell

[Godweyn]

Wel... my crazy players want to go to hell... by foot, so so badly, so I'm already seeing a possible future.

The question is, there is alredy some kind of mapping about hell and how navigate/explore the terrain ? or... dont know, some advise ?
Do not get me wrong, I would love for them to go there, but I would like to be prepared, if there is official content of any edition, better, otherwise I will prepare to put everything together from 0

[Baron Wulfraed]

That sounds much like HeroQuest matters, so I'd maybe look there (presuming your "hell" is the Gloranthan underworld

Glorantha Sourcebook, page 78 is a rough map -- the most prominent entrances are the Gates of Dawn and Dusk, which have spiral stairs down (though how many supplies one would need to carry just to make it that distance I can't guess at).

[Godweyn]

19 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

That sounds much like HeroQuest matters, so I'd maybe look there (presuming your "hell" is the Gloranthan underworld

Glorantha Sourcebook, page 78 is a rough map -- the most prominent entrances are the Gates of Dawn and Dusk, which have spiral stairs down (though how many supplies one would need to carry just to make it that distance I can't guess at).

My bad, Gloranthan underworld exactly.

[svensson]

Well, lemme tell ya.... 😁

 

[PhilHibbs]

The adventurers go to hell in the Chaosium house campaign on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT8_rXxoYDk

[Squaredeal Sten]

There are references to  "Lunar hell' or hells, but I have never seen specifics of what is there except the souls of leading Lunar  enemies.  However i get the idea that these are NOT the generic Gloranthan underworld.

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, Godweyn said:

Wel... my crazy players want to go to hell... by foot, so so badly, so I'm already seeing a possible future.

The question is, there is alredy some kind of mapping about hell and how navigate/explore the terrain ? or... dont know, some advise ?
Do not get me wrong, I would love for them to go there, but I would like to be prepared, if there is official content of any edition, better, otherwise I will prepare to put everything together from 0

Ah, Hell!  What a wonderful place for a GM to bring their players to.  😱

The best places to help provide you some guidance are currently hard to get ahold of, specifically the HeroQuest line products:  Sartar Kingdom of Heroes, HeroQuest Glorantha, and the Eleven Lights.  All had quests into Hell, with some sense of how to run and get through.  However, King of Sartar contains the stages of the Lightbringer's Quest and that includes some description of several encounters through Hell.

Below is a general map from SKoH of the Underworld (copyright Moon Design).

There are any number of possible ways into Hell.  From the Six Stones in Lismelder lands, a Humakti ritual can put you there.  From certain Earth temples during holy days, if you descend the steps from the Inner Sanctum, you will find that they wind down, and down, and down and eventually into Hell.  The Westfaring ritual from the Orlanthi Lightbringer's Quest can bring you to the Gates of Dusk which is where the Sun descends each day.  Alkoth in the Lunar Empire is in Hell and passing its gates will put you somewhere within.  Other places such as the Hell Crack in Pent, Magasta's Pool, or even the Puzzle Canal in the Big Rubble, can all get you there.

Or, at least to the Threshold of Hell.  There's always a Guardian at whatever gate to Hell you use.  Someone or something that challenges your right to enter.  Can be Humakt, could be Zorak Zoran or Shargash or Rausa or others.  Someone must Die in order for the gate to open.  This is not an easy fight, and it is is quite possible a PC may die there (of course their ghost can carry on from there, but it may prove very difficult for them to leave). 

Generally you enter Hell from the "west" side of the map.  It helps if you have some idea of where you are trying to go or do.  Are you trying to retrieve someone from Hell?  They might be in the City of the Dead (on the "east" side of the map), or in Ty Kora Tek's Silent Caverns, or the Hall of the Empty Emperor (aka dead Yelm, the Maggot Liege), or in some "deeper" Lunar Hell. 

The Path of the Dead winds through Hell - it is a silent procession of the dead and it heads to the Place of Judgment at the center of the City of the Dead where Havan Vor (i.e. Daka Fal) waits to Judge all of the Dead.  The "pull" of the procession is very strong, and if you get into it, you may have difficulty getting back out.  It proceeds across the empty, barren wastes of Hell.  These could be Plains of Black Ash, pools of acid, brimstone pits, realms of roaming nightmares, lands of lost souls, etc.  Think of a Hellish, nightmare land where nothing is ever the same and you'll be at a good starting point.  They may find they leave the plains of ash to enter the Swamps of Despair only to find themselves when they emerge back in the plains of ash again, with no good bearing as to where to go. 

The Nightwood is somewhere in this "western" half and haunted by the Bad Dogs, Canis Chaos, Gagarth's Wild Hunt, or even dead aldryami.  There are chasms filled with monsters such as the Army of Deshkorgos or Zorak Zoran's Legion of Death.  There are giants buried in Hell with only their heads (or perhaps their arms) sticking out.  You can draw on sources such as Dante, Neil Gaiman's Sandman, or Hellboy for various images.  Your enemies (those you Fear or Hate) should ALWAYS appear at some point, perhaps in some nightmare form (e.g. the Greydogs of the Lismelder appear as greyish Hell Hounds; and there are no shortage of trolls in hell, or monstrous spiders, etc).

Hell is variously divided by the Dark Sea, the River Styx, or the River of Swords, all of which of course are part of the river of Hell.  Sometimes you reach Janak's Bridge over the River of Swords - anyone who has lied or committed perjury is knocked into the River of Swords to be cut up into many pieces.  Or you might reach the Black River where Jeset the Ferryman waits - and you must pay his fee to cross.  Of course there are monsters in the black waters, or the waters may cause loss of memory and/or self(e.g. loss of Knowledge skills, INT, or whatever), so trying to "swim" across is not recommended. 

Once across the dark waters, there is no "turning back".  No matter what direction you go, you cannot get back to the "western" side of Hell, you can only go on, usually to the City of the Dead, but as noted above there are other places to get to.  These are Places of Judgment.  The ghosts are either sent to their deity's respective "paradise" or "hell" (yes, there are deeper, more hellish places, including the Lunar Hells, where the souls of the damned are eternally tortured).

The challenge at this point is getting out of Hell.  Maybe the prayers of your community carried in a feather will help you.  Or maybe your gods can help you find the way out.  But Humakt, Jajagappa, and others are stationed to keep the Dead in Hell.  You'll likely have to overcome someone or something to get out - not an easy task after everything else.

So, hopefully, that gives you some ideas to work with.  There are generally no "wrong" answers when dealing with Hell, except it should not be: easy, simple, straightforward, work as "expected", or provide an easy exit.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

There are references to  "Lunar hell' or hells, but I have never seen specifics of what is there except the souls of leading Lunar  enemies.  However i get the idea that these are NOT the generic Gloranthan underworld.

Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes had a quest into a Lunar Hell to free the soul of Hofstaring Treeleaper. 

[Eff]

2 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

There are references to  "Lunar hell' or hells, but I have never seen specifics of what is there except the souls of leading Lunar  enemies.  However i get the idea that these are NOT the generic Gloranthan underworld.

Everyone and everything has a Hell for them. Even those that deny Hell any meaning, like Brithini, have their own Hells which they generally carry around with them. So Lunar hells are, quite simply, places in the Underworld which are charged with the power of the Moons. What does that mean?

1. Lunar myths are frequently obscure or novel. The primary defense you have when you wander from the middle world into the Otherside, including the Underworld, is knowledge of customs. You have been given a little map of Hell, a yellow brick road that guides you towards your understanding of judgment so long as you keep within the lines, and if you go outside of them, when you go outside of them, you have other stories and legends to guide you on how to behave and act. Lunar myths are associated with occult, minor, distant, or newly created deities and spirits, and so the only reliable way to know how to behave in the moonlit inferno is to have been educated in a Lunar way, probably the Lunar Way unless you're Artmali or Zaranistangi or have been initiated in the Annilla cult or are just lucky enough to know some things.

2. The nature of the Moon is that of liminality and points of convergence between different categories of things. Lunar hells exist in the spaces where ordinary hells start to fade into each other, where it's difficult to be sure what rules apply.

3. The nature of the Moon is also that of altered states of consciousness. You could easily end up in a Silent Hill scenario, or a Jacob's Ladder scenario, or a House on the Borderland scenario, or getting Rip van Winkled/Urashima Taro'd- a thousand years passing in a single very unpleasant night of being chased by a Lune around a ghostly mirror of your hometown, or getting caught in a confused state between reality and dream, this, that, and the other. 

4. And if that weren't bad enough, there are also specifically Lunar hells that have been consciously and deliberately constructed. The one we have the most information on, the "foundry", seems to be a place that offers a pain-focused approach to mystical austerity, built for Sheng Seleris and, charitably, also used for Hofstaring Treeleaper because as an accomplished Hero he could perhaps have leapt right out of a minimum-security afterlife. Less charitably, Fazzur wanted to make a point of grandiosity. Regardless, these places were designed, built, and directed by the Goddess's red right hand(s) and they are probably designed to keep you in disorienting, liminal lands of the lotus eaters, where you're kept between dreams and nightmares and reality and unable to ever escape, and just because your PCs are technically "innocent" doesn't protect you from getting caught in one of the trippier episodes of The Prisoner or the movie Cube II: Hypercube. Of course, just get the right paperwork and you can safely enter and exit!

Which is to say, in actual play, Lunar hells/Lunar places in the broader Underworld are a good way to mainline psychological horror, surrealism, the Kafkaesque absurd, or just elaborate, layered references to classic prison films like Cool Hand Luke, Midnight Express, Caged Heat, or Female Prisoner #701: Scorpion. The power is yours.

[Shiningbrow]

Does Illumination have any impact on traversing Hell (of any version)?

[Nick Brooke]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Does Illumination have any impact on traversing Hell (of any version)?

Yes. It lets you know as a certain Truth that all the seemingly evil and inimical things you encounter are meant to be there: they aren’t actually evil or inimical, they’re each playing their allocated part in the Cosmos, and in fact they’re a necessary part of it.

(Which might not help much if they’re currently playing cat’s cradle with your intestines, but it’s the thought that counts, eh?)

Illumination might also help you “meh” your way through guardians’ tests that are designed to reveal inner truths about your soul. Strong “I never done good things, I never done bad things, I never did anything outta the blue” energy. You are neither virtuous nor vicious, the Gods and their creations cannot judge you, and you make your way through the world on your own terms.

(“And yet, you still ended up here. How curious.”)

[Joerg]

9 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

There are references to  "Lunar hell' or hells, but I have never seen specifics of what is there except the souls of leading Lunar  enemies.  However i get the idea that these are NOT the generic Gloranthan underworld.

There are the commonly traveled parts of the Underworld, the trail blazed by Grandfather Mortal and traveled regularly by Yelm, which are fairly well explored, and there are deeper places, less stable rather shapeless and shifting, a trait of Darkness as well as of Chaos.

These are not places that human souls are normally exposed to - even some of the more punishing hells like say the fourth Dara Happan underworld (The Glorious ReAscent of Yelm is another good source on the underworlds) are comparatively cosy compared to these soul-shredding environments.

 

The Underworld may be the birthplace of Time, but Time isn't entirely in control of these places. It is unimaginably huge. Surface World Glorantha is covered by seas for more than 60%. The underworld comes first as the cube of Earth which is barely peeking out of the vast realm of water surrounding it on all other sides. Even if you slice it in neat 15km layers (which is way beyond the surface world atmosphere), you can fit 400 such layers into a cube of 6000 km to a side. Arne Sacknussem wouldn't run out of places to explore if he had a Brithini or Vadeli life-span, and neither would any Lidenbrock on his trail. And that's still way above the basements of the Spike, which may have survived the implosion of it to a certain degree. The Spike was shaped like a cone, only one eighth of its volume formed the visible mountain. That's a lot of invisible Spike beneath, probably Mostali-inhabited space, too. Or the remaining parts of the Castle of Lead which pokes out in a couple of places in the Surface World (Dagori Inkarth, Halikiv, others?). The Obsidian Palace is known to have a basement level with a banquet hall at the same level as the Court of Silence and Wonderhome/the halls of Maggotliege Yelm Bijiif.

There are many places in the Underworld which are places of bliss or at least solace and nurturing, at least to those at home in these places. Outsiders infringing on these places may experience them as dangerous, terrorizing and deadly. (A bit like the experience of visiting Glamour, another such Hell. Alkoth probably as well.) Places like Wonderhome before Yelm re-decorated it.

[soltakss]

15 hours ago, Godweyn said:

Wel... my crazy players want to go to hell... by foot, so so badly, so I'm already seeing a possible future.

Sounds good.

There are several easy ways to get to Hell:

• Pass through the Gates of Dusk, at the end of the world, you simply have to sail there and then travel overland a bit, then persuade the guardians of the gate to let you go through.
• Pass through the Gates of Dawn, at the other end of the world, you simply have to sail there and then travel overland a bit, then persuade the guardians of the gate to let you go through, although this is generally harder as this is traditionally an exit not an entrance.
• Jump down Hellcrack to the northeast of the Rockwoods
• Sail down, or jump down, Magasta's Pool
• Swim down through the Tarpit in the Holy Country
• Travel down into the basements of the Castles of Lead, Cragspider's Castle or the ruined basements of the Castle of black Glass
• Go through the doorway in the Sazdorf Caverns
• Perform, the Six Stones ritual at the Six Stones in Sartar to appear at Six Stones in Hell

15 hours ago, Godweyn said:

The question is, there is alredy some kind of mapping about hell and how navigate/explore the terrain ? or... dont know, some advise ?

In once sense, Hell is just a physical place. You can go there and travel between the different parts of Hell. However, Hell is really big, bigger than Genertela, Pamaltela and all the seas and oceans combined, so it will take many lifetimes to explore by normal means.

In another sense, Hell is on the Hero Plane, intimately connected to the God Plane, so using HeroQuest stations to navigate is a better bet.

Basically, Hell is the Land of the Dead, where all the souls of dead Gloranthans go. Each Realm holds the dead of a deity or a pantheon, so Ty Kora Tek oversees the Halls of Silence, where dead Earth Folk go, Humakt had his Sword Hall, Yelm's Realm is ruled by the Maggot King and is where Solar cultists go and so on. Your Adventurers would explore each area in turn, probably.

It has been done before, of course. sir Ethilrist famously led the White Horse Company into Hell, they traversed Hell and returned as the Black Horse Company, riding on demon steeds.

 

 

[Ali the Helering]

44 minutes ago, soltakss said:

In once sense, Hell is just a physical place. You can go there and travel between the different parts of Hell. However, Hell is really big, bigger than Genertela, Pamaltela and all the seas and oceans combined, so it will take many lifetimes to explore by normal means.

In another sense, Hell is on the Hero Plane, intimately connected to the God Plane, so using HeroQuest stations to navigate is a better bet.

IMG it is experiential, an Otherworld that isn't compliant with Surface World concepts like topological mapping.  HeroQuest stations work well, as does anything for a Cyberspace NetRunner!

[Joerg]

A certain degree of experiential measurement applies to all of the Outer World of Glorantha, whether the Sky, the rim of the Sky Dome and adjacent areas (lands of Dawn, Dusk, Altinela, the Sea of Flame), or the downbelow. Size and distance becomes subjective when traveling outward from the Inner World. If you fly at the command of the Ring of the VIngkotling to face the Luatha on the beach of Luathela, they will appear to be human-sized opponents, maybe with some weird sunset magic, but then so will you wield a bunch of Vingkotling magics bestowed by following that summons. Meet the same individual patroling Kanthor's Isles, and the Luatha will be a giant with unassailable magics.

Sir Ethilrist showed us that it is possible to traverse the Underworld without encountering any trolls. He brought the Hound, his Nightmares, and a cloak that releases Goblins, instead. None of these are pleasant.

Alkoth has ties into the Dara Happan Underworlds, and possibly beyond. Its Shadzoring demons are like a bad version of Zorak Zoran (if such a thing is possible).

There are a number of Antigod creatures in/from the Eastern lands which now are active in the Surface World. (But then the Easterners include the Babadi aka eastern Mostali in that category.)

One might say that the trolls are the most successful underworld species in the Surface World, or one might say they are one of the least successful Underworld species, having been evicted from their homelands like nobody else.

[Oracle]

I think, we need a clarification of terminology here, because there is a difference between the Underworld and Hell.

From the Guide to Glorantha, Vol. I, p.10:

Quote

...

Below: Beneath the Earth and the deepest waters is the Underworld. Six Hells are shown, including those of Annara Gor and Deshlotralas, Netta, Yelm, Natha, and Deskorgos the Monster Man.
...

So there are several Hells (certainly more than six, because in addition to the above list the Guide mentions at least the Lunar Hell several times), which are all located in the Underworld. In fact it seems, as if every cult or at least every Pantheon has its own hell.

Also from the Guide to Glorantha, Vol. I, p.162:

Quote

The Underworld is not any one of the Other Worlds, but encompasses them all. For some cultures, most notably the Uz and the Aldryami, the Underworld is their Otherworld. For the Uz, the Underworld is Wonderhome, a place of total darkness until dead Yelm was cast down, accompanied by his weeping and mourning minions. For the Aldryami, the Underworld is the home of Flamal the Father of Seeds and source of the Primal Plasma that animates all Life.

Obviously the Underworld is much more than just Hell or even all the Hells, and every known Hell is part of the Underworld.

[Joerg]

To a sun-worshiper, any sun-less environment is a kind of hell, starting with mines and natural caves. To trolls, vampires etc. a place where they are confronted with the glaring sun is hell.

Some of the draconic hells are what I regard as extreme outer realms, but not necessarily in the Underworld. I am convinced that quite a few are adjacent to or part of Dayzatar's realm.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Oracle said:

I think, we need a clarification of terminology here, because there is a difference between the Underworld and Hell.

Personally, I would leave this as a quibble among Lhankor Mhy sages or perhaps between Illuminated masters (e.g. something the PC's might be told or learn so that they can try to "avoid" Hell itself).

PC's may well travel to the "Underworld" expecting to avoid "Hell", and then discover that the distinction is meaningless when they are captured by the Demon of Seven Diamonds, enslaved, and forced to work the brimstone pits digging for Hellstones or forced to roll the Searing Eyeball of the Maggot Liege up the slopes of the Unyielding Crater, only to have it escape their grasp just before the crater's lip and roll back down again.

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

You can go there and travel between the different parts of Hell. However, Hell is really big, bigger than Genertela, Pamaltela and all the seas and oceans combined, so it will take many lifetimes to explore by normal means.

And unlike the Surface World, there's no guarantee that things will be in the same place each time you go (assuming of course that you have "multiple" opportunities to venture there!).  It should have a very grand yet amorphous quality.  It should have places of shadows, poisonous fogs and mists, of pure Darkness, of demons and evil.

There are places that are Parodies of real life.  The Stead of the Demon King who "welcomes" guests to his hospitality (i.e. invoking relevant Customs and guest rights and requiring rolls of Honor to refuse).  He might serve the foods and drinks that PC's have geases against consuming.  Or he might serve platefuls of squirming maggots or the Blood of Innocents.  

There are places that are the dead shadows of places gone from the real world.  It is quite possible that the City of Wonders is now in Hell, its ghostly "denizens" going through all the motions they went through when alive.  Or perhaps you wander into the Night of Horrors, the ghostly battlefield that still rages between the Red Emperor and the Orathorn mages and the Chaos they unleashed first in the real-world and continue to unleash in some corner of Hell.

Then there may be bizarre places from the world of dreams:  the "funhouse" Hall of Mirrors where each mirror reveals an aspect of you, an aspect that wants to overwhelm and replace "you"; or the Endless Play, where you are forced to play your part forever, and ever; or the Kingdom of the Boggles ruled by Eurmal where everything is said in Riddles, nothing makes sense or everything is nonsense, and Eurmal makes sport by sending vampire babies to hunt you.  Any nightmare makes good fodder for the Underworld.

[soltakss]

3 hours ago, Oracle said:

Obviously the Underworld is much more than just Hell or even all the Hells, and every known Hell is part of the Underworld.

The Trolls have a Burning Hell in the Sky where bad trolls go after death. That is definitely not in the Underworld. But, generally, yes, Hell is that part of the Underworld that is beyond the Styx.

 

[Joerg]

On 7/3/2021 at 5:13 PM, soltakss said:

Hell is that part of the Underworld that is beyond the Styx.

It probably depends on where you enter. Passing the Gates of Dusk leaves you dead to the world.

[M Helsdon]

On 7/2/2021 at 6:43 PM, Godweyn said:

Wel... my crazy players want to go to hell... by foot, so so badly, so I'm already seeing a possible future.

Which one?