Shamen as part of civilised cultures?

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

If shapeople are those that communicate and manipulate spirits, they are just as likely to be in cities as in the wild in Glorantha, where everything is magical and many things have a spirit. It's the method and view of the world that varies. 

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 2/15/2022 at 4:55 PM, g33k said:

I've just gotta note that Daka Fal is actually relatively common in Sartar, with ancestor-worship a real thing there (per a 2-year-old post from Jeff Richard, DF worshipers in Sartar have similar numbers to Chalana Arroy, Lhankor Mhy, & Storm Bull)...

Shamans of the town & city are absolutely canonical.

I expect they'd look less like "animist" types with animal fetishes &c... they might almost "look like" necromancers, honestly -- sporting human bones &c as ornamentation!  Similarly, they'd have more bound human ghosts, fewer animal-spirits.

That the shaman are city dwellers doesn't automatically follow, there is plenty of wild land and rural area in Sartar which they could  almost exclusively live. 

But even as I say that your idea of spiritualist/necromancer is an attractive one, with spirit guide and séances thrown in for good measure! 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Orlanthatemyhamster

[Qizilbashwoman]

8 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

shapeople

ok listen shaman doesn't have the word "man" in it, it's a Tungusic loanword. It might be a loan-borrowing from Sanskrit shramana. But it's shaman and the plural is shamans. It's not men who sha.

[g33k]

33 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

ok listen shaman doesn't have the word "man" in it, it's a Tungusic loanword. It might be a loan-borrowing from Sanskrit shramana. But it's shaman and the plural is shamans. It's not men who sha.

☝️ Linguist ☝️

(Knows whereof they speak)

[g33k]

9 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

That the shaman are city dwellers doesn't automatically follow, there is plenty of wild land and rural area in Sartar which they could  almost exclusively live. 

Except that DF is the intercessionary; they mostly keep people safe by dealing with spirits & spirit-issues.
In towns they serve, there's gonna be a lot more spirit problems in the towns, than out in the wilds.

Kind of the opposite case, really, to shamans who are out serving nomad tribes, where "the wild' is liable to generate big threats both mundanely and spiritually; and one shama may serve several wandering groups...

Tribe had a murder yesterday?  Fetch the shaman!  Town had a murder yesterday... and another two weeks ago... and...  Shaman lives 3 blocks over, they are pretty much ALWAYS busy in town!

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 2/17/2022 at 6:06 AM, g33k said:

Except that DF is the intercessionary; they mostly keep people safe by dealing with spirits & spirit-issues.
In towns they serve, there's gonna be a lot more spirit problems in the towns, than out in the wilds.

Kind of the opposite case, really, to shamans who are out serving nomad tribes, where "the wild' is liable to generate big threats both mundanely and spiritually; and one shama may serve several wandering groups...

Tribe had a murder yesterday?  Fetch the shaman!  Town had a murder yesterday... and another two weeks ago... and...  Shaman lives 3 blocks over, they are pretty much ALWAYS busy in town!

Only if you see them as only dealing with human spirits. DF is AN intercessionary but not the only one. Kolat [who are very much loners] springs to mind and there are both Elves and Trolls in Sartar. 

Perhaps you should read my reply again and not find the word 'all' or 'every'. 

 

Edited February 23, 2022 by Orlanthatemyhamster

[Ironwall]

In the game six ages an event you get is the spirit of your clans pottery kiln is upset so if pottery kilns can have spirits I can see a shaman having a place in cities 

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

23 hours ago, Ironwall said:

In the game six ages an event you get is the spirit of your clans pottery kiln is upset so if pottery kilns can have spirits I can see a shaman having a place in cities 

I agree, very much so, but I don't think it's either/or. 

[Austin]

I concur with most other commentators in this thread that shamanism isn't inherently opposed to urbanism. I think it might also be worth making a distinction between shamanism (the magical practice where holy people awaken a spirit half, the fetch) and animism (the belief that the world is basically alive, and made of many spirits). There's a lot of "squishy" overlap here, and also between animism and theism. I basically see the difference between animism and theism as the answer to the question, "Why does the wind blow?"

• Theism: The wind is Orlanth's breath.
• Animism: The wind is one of Orlanth/Kolat's children, an independent spirit.

Note that these perspectives don't necessarily contradict one another. And more importantly, they don't exclude the alternative. It's always living-air-stuff involved. I tend to conflate and blend a lot of animism/theism in how I think about Glorantha, and that might not necessarily be consistent with Chaosium's presentation of the setting. Fair warning.

In my Esrolian experimentation, I've created a very rough divide between animism and theism through "class" boundaries. This divide is explicitly artificial. Basically, the way I see it is that the "sophisticated" urban elite of my city look down their noses at folks who run around everywhere talking to spirits, unable to accept that 1) those spirits are just smaller manifestations of Great Ernalda/one of her Husband-Protectors/etc., and 2) those who can talk to the Great Deities are those with the right to rule. This extends to ancestor worship, because if Ernalda is one of your ancestors, that's a reason why you have the "right" to rule her lands. (Of course, Ernalda is many, many peoples ancestor, so local authorities usually pick a more recent ancestor to justify their claim.)

I see animism where I write as being rural not because of "untamed, natural landscapes" but rather "less centralized magical authority." Esrolia is densely populated, even in its "rural" countryside. Animism is useful to people in that area, because it has a greater focus on the here-and-now, the spirits of my farm, my grandparents. Shamans are useful because they aren't necessarily tied to a temple; they can actually come around and heal my child on her sickbed. They don't appear as obsessed with urban politics and wealth (this is false, but widely believed by my rural tenant/semi-free farmers).

I also tend to see spirit cults and shamans as being more individualistic and iconoclastic; this perspective is likely at odds with "canon" Glorantha. I see shamans that way because I experience shamanism as a sort of "build your own cult." The shaman negotiates with various spirits, based on what magic they need. This then translates into the community supporting the shaman's spirit cults based on what the community needs, and what the shaman can provide. I do believe that some shamans maintain spirit cults which are mostly selfish, by using other magics and powers to provide to the community. The "cost" for, say, using Cure Disease might not be in silver, bread, or beer, but rather in magic points and attending ceremonies on the shaman's behalf. Worshiping some strange spirit once a week isn't a bad trade-off for getting your children healed when they're ill! Especially since IMO most gods don't really care about spirit worship so long as it doesn't directly interfere/oppose the god's domain.

These concepts and ideas are all very much a work-in-progress. Especially in their most important expression: how to meaningfully integrate them into my RuneQuest game! 😅 

[Darius West]

Yes, you can have integrated Shamans in a civilized setting.

Consider that while shamans CAN only hunt for spirits in out-of-the-way and haunted places, they can perform their rituals anywhere once they know the spirits name for summoning purposes.

It is also worth pointing out that Shaman Cults follow powerful spirits who can grant Rune Magic.  This means that Shamans are defacto priests, just like Priests are defacto shamans thanks to their allied spirits.  Thus a shaman can have a "magical space" devoted to their "powerful spirit", but it isn't quite a temple and it isn't quite a god, just give it a couple of generations.

Also, the Horned Man might choose anyone to spontaneously become a Shaman.  There you are minding your own business, cooking a fish, and you doze off to have terrible dream where this antlered guy makes you fight your own shadow, and suddenly your world is populated with visions of spirits and you can do magic.  The Zzaburi are going to be very annoyed about this!

[yojimbo]

On 2/17/2022 at 5:24 AM, Qizilbashwoman said:

ok listen shaman doesn't have the word "man" in it, it's a Tungusic loanword. It might be a loan-borrowing from Sanskrit shramana. But it's shaman and the plural is shamans. It's not men who sha.

I think the confusion comes from the 90s Scottish dance music group, The Shamen. In their case, the name was clearly meant to be a pun on shaman. As Qizilbashwoman states, the plural of shaman is shamans and it is a gender neutral noun.

[g33k]

12 hours ago, yojimbo said:

I think the confusion comes from the 90s Scottish dance music group, The Shamen...

Honestly, I think the confusion comes from English.
With such a mongrel language, we native English-speakers sometimes seize upon any hint of familiarity... even though we often end up being overly-familiar with complete strangers.

[Brootse]

Duke Raus is about as civilized as they come, and he brought his shaman with him when he was exiled to Prax.

[davecake]

On 2/14/2022 at 4:27 PM, metcalph said:

The Eastern Isles (possibly Dream Magicians)

I don't think the Dream Magicians are shamans, though there may be some connection.

But the East Isles absolutely does have shamans, quite a few. We know of 'the School of the Dead, the Talk to the Grandparents School, the Ancestor Worshippers, and the Vulture People, who are morticians'. '[The Great Shaman] Festanur’s people are the necromancers, spirit speakers, medicine people, and controllers of elemental spirits.' So they seem mostly interested in ancestor worship, and dealing with the dead, with a minority of elemental spirits. 

I think in typical East Isles style, many of the other inhabitants often regard them as just a particularly magical profession. Oh, you have trouble with ghosts? Go see the shaman, his office days are Windsday through Godsday. And in just as typical East Isles style, any generalisation about the Isles may prove to be false for any given Island, and many of the Posandpara, the small island gods, are worshipped in shamanic style. Plus many of the Parloth, the East Isles gods, may have few temples and worshippers and often must be worshipped spirit cult style. 

I don't think this means there are that many shamans in big urban centres in the East Isles, but thats mostly because the East Isles doesn't have that many big urban centres. 

 

On 2/14/2022 at 4:27 PM, metcalph said:

The Kralori (some draconic paths, like Daruda, may be shamanic in origin) plus there's also the worship of the Hungry Ghosts to keep them quiet.

A really large proportion of the peasantry are descended from Hsunchen and keep some shamanic traditions going. Loads of shamans among the Hsunchen hill tribes, and traditions descended from hsunchen shamanism exist, like the Dancing Spirit Doctors of Hanjan province (of the Korgatsu tradition). And we know of a few others - the Red Hats of Hongguan, for example. 

Very notably, though, the practical basis of Kralorelan urban civilisation mythically comes from Ancestor worship. Ebe the Wild Man is the progenitor of mortal races, with the Man and Spirit runes - eg he is Grandfather Mortal and Daka Fal, he is ancestor worship shamanism. But his son is Aptanace the Sage, founder of civilisation, and his 700 descendants the ancestors of the Kralorelan people. I think this is mainstream religion for the urban people, most of the people in the artisan and crafter occupations at least, maybe most of the traders too - you revere your ancestors, this is Ancestor Worship through mostly methods of simple worship, mostly you can chat to your ancestors on the holidays, mostly you claim descent from one or more (of course there is intermarriage, and probably adoption too) of the 700 ancestral family lines, and this also give you your inherited profession and some magic to do with that. And most families have no need of a shaman for regular worship of the ancestors - but they need them often enough that shamans exist in the cities and can be contacted for problems with the dead, dealing with angry ancestors, and various spirit plagues (including, as you say, the Hungry Ghosts). 

And sure, Darudism is the great sinews of Empire and the magic that gives them Exarchs and the Emperor, and in turn may be descended from ancient dragon hsunchen, though I think that connection is a deeply obscured one these days - though of course perhaps profound mythical and magical secrets are hidden in that (officially ignored) connection. It seems dragon magic is for mystic monks and hermits and for martial artists, and the mandarins and other elites are largely sorcerous. 

[davecake]

Shamanism isn't opposed to urbanism.

Rather, priestly worship without shamanism is advantaged and empowered by urbanism - large urban centres means big temples, it means practical mundane support of a dedicated priesthood, it means powerful cult spirits and permanent temple buildings and all the rest, it means enough worshippers of minor gods to maintain a permanent temple can find each other. Shamans  have nothing against cities in the abstract (I mean, some, like hsunchen, do, but some are fine in cities), but they do tend to get outcompeted, and aren't as needed. And stable temples and priesthoods put their stamp on the magical landscape just as agriculture and urbanism put their stamp on the physical - animist spirits that the local temples support and favour thrive, yes, but the ones that they do not know how to deal with usefully they will tend to drive out or constrain, and this in turn reduces the need for shamans. But they aren't absolutes, so a few shamans survive - mostly ancestor worshippers who deal with spirits of Man, but not only them. 

This is also not a hard distinction - while cults in RQ are presented in their current form, and some are distinctly anti-shaman in their current form, that has at least as much to do with the social context in which they exist. Dara Happen Yelmic noble-priests probably think shamanism is a backwards practice of barbarians, but Pentan Yelm/Yu-Kargzant worshippers have shamans at the core. And some shamanic traditions intermingle with cults, like Earth Witches among the Ernalda cult. Shamans can be found in cities, but thrive where there aren't cities, because they are more needed there. 

On 2/23/2022 at 11:05 AM, Ironwall said:

In the game six ages an event you get is the spirit of your clans pottery kiln is upset so if pottery kilns can have spirits I can see a shaman having a place in cities 

But in 'modern' Glorantha, Gustbran is the spirit of the kiln as well as the forge, and initiates of Gustbran are also the guild members of the smiths and potters guilds, and that gives them enough initiates to maintain a temple in the city, and the spirit of the kiln is probably the allied spirit of the guild master, who is also a priest. Animism is kind of part of the whole bronze age world view, and is distinct from shamanic traditions. 

[hipsterinspace]

38 minutes ago, davecake said:

But in 'modern' Glorantha, Gustbran is the spirit of the kiln as well as the forge, and initiates of Gustbran are also the guild members of the smiths and potters guilds, and that gives them enough initiates to maintain a temple in the city, and the spirit of the kiln is probably the allied spirit of the guild master, who is also a priest. Animism is kind of part of the whole bronze age world view, and is distinct from shamanic traditions. 

Gustbran isn’t the spirit of kilns and forges, he’s the god of kilns and forges. I would imagine most big kilns and forges would house the guild’s wyter or a similar community spirit in them rather than the allied spirit of a single member. While the guild master is likely to be the wyter’s priest, that’s a very different relationship. A big reason to have a shaman around for that sort of thing would be to find a suitably powerful and intelligent local spirit that is willing to function as the wyter.

Cities are bound to have a very dense spirit ecology. There’s a lot of stuff there, and while you can control for some of those things theistically, it probably helps quite a lot to have shamans for things like propitiating vermin spirits and their beast children, ensuring the drinking wells remain uncontaminated, resolving curses, and keeping the ghost density under control. It’s a different (perhaps less glamorous) niche, possibly analogous to the role a cult like Yinkin might have in a city: still hunters, but the hunters of rats and other pests.

[Squaredeal Sten]

5 hours ago, davecake said:

........ and the spirit of the kiln is probably the allied spirit of the guild master, who is also a priest. ...

 

Just thinking about that particular detail: It seems to me the kiln issue is whether it is a personal asset or a family / guild / community asset. 

It's an efficiency issue: If it is the priest's allied spirit then when the priest dies its gone.  Very inconvenient if indeed you need a spirit of the kiln. In that case you have to hire a shaman to find you a new spirit, or you need a new priest of Gustbran who may or may not get an allied spirit in his first year.  Can you afford to have no kiln spirit for a year?

On the other hand if your kiln spirit is a wyter or simply a fire elemental who likes hanging out there, the family or  community persists, the spirit had several worshippers,  and a new person can take over heading up the relationship with the spirit.

[Qizilbashwoman]

4 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

possibly analogous to the role a cult like Yinkin might have in a city

which makes me wonder about Yinkin bounty hunters

[Shiningbrow]

21 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Just thinking about that particular detail: It seems to me the kiln issue is whether it is a personal asset or a family / guild / community asset. 

It's an efficiency issue: If it is the priest's allied spirit then when the priest dies its gone.  Very inconvenient if indeed you need a spirit of the kiln. In that case you have to hire a shaman to find you a new spirit, or you need a new priest of Gustbran who may or may not get an allied spirit in his first year.  Can you afford to have no kiln spirit for a year?

On the other hand if your kiln spirit is a wyter or simply a fire elemental who likes hanging out there, the family or  community persists, the spirit had several worshippers,  and a new person can take over heading up the relationship with the spirit.

I would have thought just a cult spirit, which could be summoned and bound pretty easily... This may or may not be an elemental with INT and Rune spells...

[g33k]

Huh.
Lookee the necrothread!

Is this some Daka Fal work, or accursed Delecti abomination...?  😁

===

In any case, re-reading this thread makes me want to create an "urban shaman" type who is kinda  exactly opposite  most of the fantasy / rpg "shaman-hermit in the wilderness" & "semi-pariah weirdo" tropes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-umABjuNHo

I envision a hardcore townie, with few-to-none of the classic "survival" hunter/gatherer skills, and a surprisingly-strong social skills.

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by g33k

[hipsterinspace]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

In any case, re-reading this thread makes me want to create an "urban shaman" type who is kinda  exactly opposite  most of the fantasy / rpg "shaman-hermit in the wilderness" & "semi-pariah weirdo" tropes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-umABjuNHo

I envision a hardcore townie, with few-to-none of the classic "survival" hunter/gatherer skills, and a surprisingly-strong social skills.

That’s definitely pretty easy with Daka Fal and the typically very strong Man rune that comes with his cult. Plus, veneration of the ancestors is an important job, and I’d imagine dealing with that for Esrolian noble houses in Nochet could be quite lucrative.

[Nevun]

I see Shamans and their relationship to the civilized heirarchy of spiritual engagement, as analogous to hunters and their relationship to the defense and martial arrangement of a civilization.

They both work on the fringes. Dealing with the rough and unstructured elements that are not typically part of a civilized society. But still very important for their skills and their presence on the outer limits of society.

[DrGoth]

20 hours ago, g33k said:

Huh.
Lookee the necrothread!

Is this some Daka Fal work, or accursed Delecti abomination...?  😁

===

In any case, re-reading this thread makes me want to create an "urban shaman" type who is kinda  exactly opposite  most of the fantasy / rpg "shaman-hermit in the wilderness" & "semi-pariah weirdo" tropes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-umABjuNHo

I envision a hardcore townie, with few-to-none of the classic "survival" hunter/gatherer skills, and a surprisingly-strong social skills.

 

Which is how I see a lot of Jalakeel shamans...

 

[davecake]

On 3/28/2023 at 2:52 PM, hipsterinspace said:

Gustbran isn’t the spirit of kilns and forges, he’s the god of kilns and forges.

Sure. A god who commands and rules over spirits. And can be approached through a spirit cult if necessary. The division between gods and great spirits is largely one that mortals make. 
 

On 3/28/2023 at 2:52 PM, hipsterinspace said:

I would imagine most big kilns and forges would house the guild’s wyter or a similar community spirit in them rather than the allied spirit of a single member.

Imagine what you like, but forges in general are not capable serving a whole temple worth of crafters, and when I said the forge/kiln spirit was likely an allied spirit of the priest/guild master, I was taking that directly from the draft Gustbran write up.

On 3/28/2023 at 7:17 PM, Squaredeal Sten said:

It's an efficiency issue: If it is the priest's allied spirit then when the priest dies its gone. 

Yes, and when a new priest is appointed they get a new spirit. A wyter would imply only one spirit for every community, a community large enough for a wyter will be one large enough to have many forges and kilns. I would assume a city has multiple forges and kilns, and multiple master craftsmen, each usually with several journeymen/assistants and apprentices, but at most one cult wyter. 
And a forge spirit that is not actively connected to a priest as an allied spirit might still be summonable with Command Cult Spirit. It doesn’t cease to exist when the priest dies, just ceases to be an allied spirit. 

[Joerg]

On 4/17/2023 at 8:15 AM, davecake said:

The division between gods and great spirits is largely one that mortals make. 

Mainly in how they approach them magically and what senses and magical means they use to perceive them. (Even a theist's identification with a mythical entity may be based on incomplete or even faulty understanding.)

Shamans who are associated with cults may take identification as their approach on the Other Side inside cult ceremonies (and quests based on these), but when acting on the Spirit Plane (or Spirit World), they act as their spirit self and approach other entities that way.

(It is worth noting that one doesn't even have to be an initiate of the mythical entity whose role one takes on a heroquest - a matching passion or two might be better than a half-hearted initiatory relationship to that entity.)

 

During the Hero Wars / HeroQuest 1 era, Greg meant to make the Three Different Otherworlds and how the difference between them gets overcome a major element of the Hero Wars, but that somehow failed to excite the majority of the fans (who still took three different types of Beast X depending on its Otherworld origin in Anaxial's Roster in stride).