Shamen as part of civilised cultures?

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

Can you have such a thing? 

What would they look like*, besides the carroty noses'? 

 

*obviously I don't mean physically really. 🤔🙄

Edited February 14, 2022 by Orlanthatemyhamster

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

Or women. 

[Richard S.]

Shamans typically won't live within a "civilized" area, but they can either be called in or gone to when you have problems with spirits that your priests can't handle. If a shaman does take up residence in a town or city they'll be sort of like a local wise man or woman, living in their dark old house at the very end of the lane that people do their best to steer clear of. It's certainly not impossible, just rare, since a) it's generally rural or nomadic people who have established shaman paths, b) many shamanic practices are disturbing and/or dangerous to those not used to them, so urban shamans often get ostracized, and c) spirits are generally more plentiful and more accessible in places without a lot of people around (not because civilization impedes the spirit world or anything, just because the places spirits congregate are often avoided in the first place).

[g33k]

On 2/13/2022 at 6:05 PM, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

Or women. 

(n.b. "shaman" is from another language, and pluralizes in English as "shamans" not "shamen;" to some people, this is a pretty meaningful distinction (to me, it's just an anal-retentive nagging (depending always on context, e.g. not from someone who's actually a practicing shaman, or from a culture thereof; but English is a bastardized polyglot tongue and has been grabbing loanwords with wild abandon for almost a thousand years...)))

Edited March 28, 2023 by g33k

[JRE]

Going to the Real World, there are several urban cultures that have kept shamanistic paractices, and in some cases such as China they are even called shamans in translated works. They are always tied up with ancestor worship, but also propitiation (hungry ghosts, for instance). As such, cultures need some way to deal with restless spirits, so they will have cults specialized in spirit control, or they will have shamans. Or both. Except in the west. Sorcerous ghostbusters are the solution to all your spirit infestations. 

They are specialists, with only  fractions of a percentage of practitioners, so small volumes, such as a few shamans per city would be enough in most cases. 

The Pelorians have several mixed shamanistic-theistic practices, the Orlanthi have kolati, so I am sure Esrolia has some earth associated shamans. I also had a wandering Man-of-all based on the Taoist swordsman of A Chinese Ghost Story, as a ghost troubleshooter. 

[metcalph]

6 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

Can you have such a thing? 

Why not?  It's the bronze age after all.

RW Civilizations with shamans in them include:

• The Maya
• The Manchus (they concealed their shamanic practices to avoid the Han Confuians sneering at them)
• South Korea.

Gloranthan civilizations with shamans in them might be:

• The Seshnegi (to help the Nobles with their worship of the Ancestors much to the digust of the Wizards)
• The Kralori (some draconic paths, like Daruda, may be shamanic in origin) plus there's also the worship of the Hungry Ghosts to keep them quiet.
• The Lunar Empire (Jakaleel the Witch)
• The Eastern Isles (possibly Dream Magicians)
• Flanch and Elamle (who are on record as having an active worship of ancestor worship and hero cults Guide p600)

[Shiningbrow]

9 minutes ago, metcalph said:

RW Civilizations with shamans in them include:

• The Maya
• The Manchus (they concealed their shamanic practices to avoid the Han Confuians sneering at them)
• South Korea.

Chingis Khan had his (Mongolian) shamans with him when he had his hordes invade everywhere, such as taking over much of China.

[metcalph]

2 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Chingis Khan had his (Mongolian) shamans with him when he had his hordes invade everywhere, such as taking over much of China.

Yeah but was he... civilized?

[Shiningbrow]

I'm thinking... It will depend on what you consider "civilised".

Kyger Litor priestesses can become shamans, so absolutely in any troll hall.

While Orlanthi have Kolati shamans, the winds tend not to blow inside big towns and cities, so they prefer their other places. 

Nochet? Lots of ancestor worship going on there, so there should be a few.

 

I strongly suspect that the issue of this comes down to imposing our world views on theirs. And do, I don't see a great problem having shamans housed in nice comfortable buildings (unless they generally summon nature - or animal or plant - spirits).

[Shiningbrow]

5 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Yeah but was he... civilized?

Actually, apparently so! Very cosmopolitan!! Allowed those here conquered to have their own religion. Had administrators appointed from different groups. Education and effective administration was important.

[metcalph]

16 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Actually, apparently so! Very cosmopolitan!! Allowed those here conquered to have their own religion. Had administrators appointed from different groups. Education and effective administration was important.

Civilized is its basic sense means city-dweller, which Genghis was not (as he is a classic definition of a nomad).

[soltakss]

8 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

Can you have such a thing? 

Yes, sure, why not?

They could be the memory of a tribe that was absorbed by the civilised culture, perhaps forced to settle down, or a Folk Tradition, perhaps like the Zola Fel cultists in Pavis.

[Akhôrahil]

Ancestor worship (Daka Fal) is surely widespread, with the Man Rune focus meaning that they're not opposed to civilization, so DF shamans ought to work for this.

Of course, some shamans pick up oddball geases or issues that might push them outside society, such as the somewhat crazy DF shaman in the Quickstart.

Black Fang is urbane as well.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Bill the barbarian]

10 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Shamans typically won't live within a "civilized" area, but they can either be called in or gone to when you have problems with spirits that your priests can't handle. If a shaman does take up residence in a town or city they'll be sort of like a local wise man or woman, living in their dark old house at the very end of the lane that people do their best to steer clear of. It's certainly not impossible, just rare, since a) it's generally rural or nomadic people who have established shaman paths, b) many shamanic practices are disturbing and/or dangerous to those not used to them, so urban shamans often get ostracized, and c) spirits are generally more plentiful and more accessible in places without a lot of people around (not because civilization impedes the spirit world or anything, just because the places spirits congregate are often avoided in the first place).

Gee Richard, I do not often disagree with you but I see no reason why a Shaman can not be urban, nothing in the RAW or the RAI that I can think of...

Edited February 14, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Godlearner]

Worship of a city Founder can certainly be done through shamatic rituals. In fact, "City God" worship can work better as a Spirit Cult.

[dumuzid]

IMG there's a surviving shamanic component to Heler worship in the urban heart of Nochet, revolving around the Tarena Cloudmother subcult.

[Qizilbashwoman]

9 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Gee Richard, I do not often disagree with you but I see no reason why a Shaman can not be urban, nothing in the RAW or the RAI that I can think of...

for specific shamans there might be only because of their needs, but that's no different to the temple to Kero Fin being located at the mountain: unique to that specific cult. there's nothing un-urbane about shamanic practices per se.

[Ladygolem]

3 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

there's nothing un-urbane about shamanic practices per se.

Agreed. There seems to be a circular logic in this thread: shamans are "uncivilised" because only the "uncivilised" are shamans, therefore shamans must be "uncivilised" etc. Once we let go of that presupposition, there's nothing really barring shamans from cities other than the mental image of a shaman as a raggedy old man wearing a deer skull etc. which isn't inherent to the occupation.

[Bill the barbarian]

12 minutes ago, Ladygolem said:

Once we let go of that presupposition, there's nothing really barring shamans from cities other than the mental image of a shaman as a raggedy old man wearing a deer skull etc. which isn't inherent to the occupation.

Hey now, let’s not get all judgmental about it. I have an old soul down the hall from my high-rise apartment who rocks that look!

[Brian Duguid]

7 hours ago, Ladygolem said:

Agreed. There seems to be a circular logic in this thread: shamans are "uncivilised" because only the "uncivilised" are shamans, therefore shamans must be "uncivilised" etc. Once we let go of that presupposition, there's nothing really barring shamans from cities other than the mental image of a shaman as a raggedy old man wearing a deer skull etc. which isn't inherent to the occupation.

I think there is something deeper here, which I'm exploring in the Hsunchen book I'm writing, but it's cultural rather than specific to the shamans that form part of that culture. Hsunchen don't practice agriculture, even seeing it as taboo; there's a sense that they are defending a palaelolithic or mesolithic culture against the progress that the neolithic era brought. And there could be sound Gloranthan reasons for that: agriculture and temples evolve together, along with a transition from an animist to a theist culture, and all that goes along with that (obedience to priests and landowners, longer working hours, poorer health). This transition in the real-world is seen in Glorantha in the form of cultural change from the Basmoli to the Pendali, the Mraloti to the Entruli etc. Hsunchen shamans are therefore uncivilized because the conservative tendency in their peoples see civilization as a trap, which will dilute their magical heritage and their very culture. Those Hsunchen tribes who did become civilized generally assimilated theist pantheons and culture behaviours.

That's specific to the Hsunchen culture, but several other Gloranthan cultures with significant animist aspects are also non-agricultural (and therefore uncivilized): the Praxian Waha tradition, the Golden Bow tradition amongst the Grazelanders, etc.

There's absolutely no reason why a shaman can't live in a city (as pointed out earlier in the thread, if there's something weird in the neighbourhood, who ya gonna call?) But where they are fulfilling a social role as part of a wider culture, it will come down to the extent to which a theist culture (obedient in magical matters to a priesthood) can coexist with animisim (magic based on direct one-to-one experience with spirits, possibly less hierarchical).

[Akhôrahil]

9 hours ago, Ladygolem said:

Agreed. There seems to be a circular logic in this thread: shamans are "uncivilised" because only the "uncivilised" are shamans, therefore shamans must be "uncivilised" etc. Once we let go of that presupposition, there's nothing really barring shamans from cities other than the mental image of a shaman as a raggedy old man wearing a deer skull etc. which isn't inherent to the occupation.

This does seem to be something of a pattern in Glorantha, though - for whatever reason, it's the more "primitive" societies that are more inclined to have shamans. There doesn't seem to be any obvious in-world reasons for it, unless you want to argue that theistic worship arises in more complex societies and then take over.

And as seen for several cults in this thread, there are a number of exceptions.

[Godlearner]

54 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

it's the more "primitive" societies that are more inclined to have shamans.

I think it is because of the assumption that they are more attuned to nature, Afterall they would have to be to survive as there are fewer reserves in basic necessities. The chain of thought that one needs to be more like the element that being earth, air or more like the animal to survive like them. The focus is not on the deeds, but the state. 

[JRE]

The other factor is that with a good worshipper base, cults offer more services and benefits. With primitive societies, shamans are your main magic. In big cities (that may have as many shamans as a whole praxian clan) they are still only a small fraction of the magic available. 0.1% in a population of 10,000 and 1% in a population of 1,000 come both to 10. The 10,000 add a lot other priests, magicians, and wonderworkers. A high population base has a magic of its own.

The shamans will be also more appreciated in a primitive clan, and that usually allows them, by community support, to become more powerful, and to share more widely the magic with the clan. Also in conflict with "primitives" is when the "civilized" will face shamanic magic as opponents, entrenching the image that shamans are primitive.

[g33k]

I've just gotta note that Daka Fal is actually relatively common in Sartar, with ancestor-worship a real thing there (per a 2-year-old post from Jeff Richard, DF worshipers in Sartar have similar numbers to Chalana Arroy, Lhankor Mhy, & Storm Bull)...

Shamans of the town & city are absolutely canonical.

I expect they'd look less like "animist" types with animal fetishes &c... they might almost "look like" necromancers, honestly -- sporting human bones &c as ornamentation!  Similarly, they'd have more bound human ghosts, fewer animal-spirits.

Edited February 15, 2022 by g33k

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 2/14/2022 at 8:49 AM, Shiningbrow said:

Actually, apparently so! Very cosmopolitan!! Allowed those here conquered to have their own religion. Had administrators appointed from different groups. Education and effective administration was important.

Yes, he murdered people from many parts of the world and every social strata. He truly was an equal opportunities psychopath.