When is it too late for a Humakti to D.I. to avoid death in combat?

[Rodney Dangerduck]

For example, a typical series of events.

1. Opponent rolls a critical attack (or maybe a special and they are big and nasty)
2. Humakti PC misses their parry or dodge, or perhaps achieves merely a "normal" parry.  Or it is a missile attack.
3. GM rolls damage, it's a big number
4. An alert GM asks "just how much armor and magical protection do you have?"
5. GM rolls location on a D20, it's somewhere vital!
6. Humakti PC falls dead.

At what steps can the PC, or, one of their companions, call for D.I. to save them from death without pissing off Humakt?

If the PC were not a Humakti, the answer is simple: "anytime".

[HreshtIronBorne]

Also anytime at our table. Even for a Humakti. Sometimes people get caught up in the excitement of a situation or get talked over or something. Best to not nitpick on protocols as far as our group is concerned.

Divine Intervention is just a CHANCE to get saved, anyway. Even if it does save you, you can be completely crippled if you roll badly. 

[Bill the barbarian]

1 minute ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Sometimes people get caught up in the excitement of a situation or get talked over or something. Best to not nitpick on protocols as far as our group is concerned.

Ooh, I love that thinking!

[Ladygolem]

Runequest: Roleplaying in Glorantha page 272:

Quote

Calling for divine intervention takes no time, and
occurs simultaneously, in the time between a blow striking
and the adventurer’s death, for example.

To me this implies that in actual play terms, you can call for divine intervention after damage is dealt. "That's 26 damage to the head, you're dead. Do you want to try to D. I. before that happens?"

[HreshtIronBorne]

1 hour ago, Ladygolem said:

To me this implies that in actual play terms, you can call for divine intervention after damage is dealt. "That's 26 damage to the head, you're dead. Do you want to try to D. I. before that happens?"

This is almost verbatim how it comes up at our table too, regardless of cult. Lol. 

[SDLeary]

I'm not sure that a Humakti would ever DI to avoid death. I think it would be more along the lines of:

"Let me take my enemy with me!"

"Allow me to complete my quest, then I will join you!" 

...or something along those lines. Something to allow them to bring their opponent with them to the underworld, or to extend their time before heading to be judged. Never to "avoid" death! 😉

That being said, such a DI would be appropriate at any time the player thought it was. Humakt may not agree though.

SDLeary

Edited February 16, 2022 by SDLeary

[soltakss]

5 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

At what steps can the PC, or, one of their companions, call for D.I. to save them from death without pissing off Humakt?

Dragged from the clutches of Death, or asking Humakt to give them more time to serve him.

Either way, using DI to save yourself from a mortal blow is fine in my games, even for Humakti.

Bringing a Humakti back some time after death, though, is probably not good.

[PhilHibbs]

Technically you die in the bookkeeping phase of the round in which you took the damage. So anything that can get in before that can save you, which typically means rune/divine magic and DI.

So technically...

6. Wait for bookkeeping phase.
7. Humakti PC falls dead.

Edited February 16, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[French Desperate WindChild]

7 hours ago, SDLeary said:

I'm not sure that a Humakti would ever DI to avoid death. I think it would be more along the lines of:

"Let me take my enemy with me!"

"Allow me to complete my quest, then I will join you!" 

...or something along those lines. Something to allow them to bring their opponent with them to the underworld, or to extend their time before heading to be judged. Never to "avoid" death! 😉

That being said, such a DI would be appropriate at any time the player thought it was. Humakt may not agree though.

SDLeary

yes it is not "Save me", it is "let me kill more" and maybe... the humakti will die but directly become an allied spirit or just a spirit, in the sword of the party

[JRE]

I would recommend having this discussion with the player of the humakti character before it is needed, mainly to clarify whether the player will accept the intervention, if another player does so, and if a humakti ally spirit will do so. I have known a few humakti characters that refuse being saved because the character would not do so, and in one memorable case, staying alive by Humakt's will till the enemy were dispatched and then dropping dead. Character death can be a very emotive moment, and it is better in cases where for roleplaying reasons a character, whether PC or NPC, may refuse salvation, to avoid frustration and unnecessary arguments. 

In my experience humakti are usually either roleplayers that often, depending on their geas, will refuse to ask for DI to be healed, or power players that will certainly ask for it. So it needs to be clear what is your own interpretation of what Humakt will grant, and whether the character will accept it. I can imagine the frustration of an orlanthi (this came up in such a discussion) that justifies as their leader to DI to heal a humakti companion, to have the humakti (the same one that asked just to survive enough to defeat the enemy) kill himself after the battle ends, as the player said he would do. That way everyone was psyched up for the glorious death we knew was likely.

Players are all different, but in similar ways.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

4 hours ago, JRE said:

I would recommend having this discussion with the player of the humakti character before it is needed, ... I can imagine the frustration of an orlanthi (this came up in such a discussion) that justifies as their leader to DI to heal a humakti companion, to have the humakti (the same one that asked just to survive enough to defeat the enemy) kill himself after the battle ends.

Excellent points, and that's exactly why I asked.  His PC just became a Sword, and mine just became a Vinga Wind Lady.

[French Desperate WindChild]

back to my position

should a god, friend of humakt, act to resurrect a humakti (because a DI was requested by a worshipper)

I think no

 

but if the DI is save the humakti from the "very soon" death I would say yes of course, and Humakt himself too (I change my previous idea)

 

the point finally is not to bring back the humakti from the dead (too late) but to change the rolls :

1. Opponent rolls a critical attack (or maybe a special and they are big and nasty)

well not a critical attack, the god (humakt or other) moved a little bit the weapon

2. Humakti PC misses their parry or dodge, or perhaps achieves merely a "normal" parry.  Or it is a missile attack

at the end the Humakti was inspired by a god, or one friend parries it

3. GM rolls damage, it's a big number

argh it should be, but finally only a few part touched

4. An alert GM asks "just how much armor and magical protection do you have?"

not a roll, not DI here

5. GM rolls location on a D20, it's somewhere vital!

Hey, no, it touched something else

6. Humakti PC falls dead.

too late

 

but as you can DI when you want = you anticipate 1 2 3 or 5, or just the result, the DI occus at the step you want (= when the god act)

Edited February 16, 2022 by French Desperate WindChild

[Godlearner]

We always give a character (PC and NPC) a chance of a DI at two points. One as they go unconscious and another at the point where they would die. One attempt per deity and you cannot ask for the same thing, if it was already denied that same day.

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

When they draw their weapon. 

[Akhôrahil]

16 hours ago, SDLeary said:

...or something along those lines. Something to allow them to bring their opponent with them to the underworld, or to extend their time before heading to be judged. Never to "avoid" death! 😉

Time to get creative! Moments before impact: "I call on Humakt to shatter the sword of this unworthy wielder of the Power of Death!" 🙂

Although DI to slay your killer makes Humakti even more terrifying to fight!

Edited February 16, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

I hate the 'kill more' request. 

"Oh, I've asked my god for a request that's going to make the rest of you chumps redundant for the rest of this critical combat. Sos."

No thanks. 

Surviving til the end, yeah. Superpowers til the end? 

Er, No. 

Humakt's already a bit of a copout as Death Gods go, just give them DIs' like everybody else. 

[Ladygolem]

1 minute ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

Surviving til the end, yeah. Superpowers til the end?

Who said anything about superpowers?

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

1 hour ago, Ladygolem said:

Who said anything about superpowers?

It's a bit of a let down if you ask your God to let you kill more of your foes and you die next round. 

😉😉

[Ladygolem]

Divine Intervention is supposed to be a big deal for anyone, not just Humakt cultists. I'd expect no less from eg. an Orlanthi ("Grant me but one more breath to scatter the hated foe!"). You're sacrificing a hefty chunk of permanent POW and have a good chance of dying right then and there - that seems like a reasonable price to steal the spotlight for a scene. What's more memorable - the hero overcoming their foe in one last grand burst of power with their dying breath, saving the village... or "The trollkin brains you with a well aimed pebble. You're dead. Start rolling up a new character sheet"

[JRE]

A well developed humakti will usually steal the spotlight in most combats, and that is ok, it is their thing. We allow replacement characters to be at the same power level as the other characters, so death is painful but not terrible. Everybody accepted the increased mortality of humakti as par for the course, and some players play the same humakti time and time again, with slight cosmetic variations.

Our own house rule would not allow DI to roll back time (for obvious mythical reasons), so when you DI is important. Shattering the foe's sword seems a bit petty for a DI, unless it is a powerful weapon. Many people would prefer surrender and ransom than rolling DI. In our game a Humakti could ask for healing only if they are still alive at that point. After you roll the damage dice and the damage is decapitation, it is ressurrection, not healing. So when you see the critical and location head, is when you ask Humakt for a little more time. But this is our own standard, and one I am sure will not change in RQ:G. 

[Shiningbrow]

I largely agree with @JRE's post above. It's the character calling for the godly intervention, not the player. This, there can't be any calls for DI prior to the results being felt (in the instant death cases above. Obviously, if you know you're going to die, it's another thing... Maybe that's something to consider? **) No time travel!

However, I think that death may not be as instantaneous as that. We already know, for example, that decapitated heads still have intelligence, sight, and can move their eyes and lips. So, I'd suggest "not dead" sufficient for the DI to not be a Resurrection but a Heal Body.

 

** if you see that greatsword about to go through your eye (Crit, Hit Location 20), the GM could precedece with the description, and give them a chance to DI before knowing the actual numbers. At that point, the character would know they're about to die.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

The concept of a Humakt DI shattering an opponent's sword seems very wrong.  Assuming that the opponent is behaving vaguely honorably.

[SDLeary]

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

The concept of a Humakt DI shattering an opponent's sword seems very wrong.  Assuming that the opponent is behaving vaguely honorably.

Except... Humakt. He loves shattering swords as a sign of displeasure, so it doesn't seem all that wrong. It shows that the one that asked for the "favor" was in the right.

SDLeary

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 hours ago, SDLeary said:

Except... Humakt. He loves shattering swords as a sign of displeasure, so it doesn't seem all that wrong. It shows that the one that asked for the "favor" was in the right.

SDLeary

I see it the exact opposite.  YGMV.  Now, sorry, here I'm definitely exaggerating for effect:

"Hey Humakt, even though you are the greatest fighter ever, and I have your great Gift of XXX, and your awesome combat spells, I can't beat that guy in a fair fight.  Could you please break his sword so I can kill an unarmed man?"

Edited February 18, 2022 by Rodney Dangerduck

[JRE]

In my DIs wording matters a lot. And mythic knowledge is really power. So I agree in principle shattering swords of honorable opponents is not a right action for a humakti. But you can shatter it if they are chaotic, follow Yanafal Tarnils or are just cheating, and attacking 2 on one could be said to be cheating... If they have other weapons, and they are not humakti or members of an associate cult, you could argue they are not worthy of using a sword.

I still think that unless it is an extremely lethat sword, or you do not actually want to kill the enemy, it is little effect for a high risk act. Shattering all the enemies weapons would be more appropiate for Issaries, or even Earth (Harmony deities), but I would argue killing the unarmed foes would be a disorderly action, and could have consequences. Still getting used to RQ:G, but I am thinking of adjusting runic affinities in the case of succesful DI, as the divine acting through you should be a momentous event, depending on how the intervention fits with the conceding god runes. Including, as in what you do with your unarmed foes, the aftermath of the power use. So a discordant effect could still be conceded, as you are paying the power cost, but it could also cost you some of your Truth affinity, if we stay with Humakt. Choosing a mythically appropiate effect would reinforce it. This is clearly a work in progress, as I get familiar with the rules interactions.

I also allow enemies DI, though only rune levels use it with any frequency. That is another reason why we set up house rules and limits in advance. Normal people surrender or flee in dire straits.