'Elemental' Shamans?

[svensson]

So, here's a question one of my players posed that I'm kicking up to higher authority...

In RQG is there such a thing as shaman that specializes in elemental spirits?

I'm aware that Heortling Orlanthi culture has Daka Fal /Grandfather Mortal shamans and earlier editions had 'Kolatings' that dealt with spirits of Air and Air elementals. So how about RQG? And for that matter, the other Element Runes as well?

[AndrewTBP]

Glorantha has the Kolating shamans still, Kolat is Orlanth’s oldest brother. 
There’s an Earth witch in Pegasus Plateau, the Crimson Petals adventure. 
Jakaleel the Witch was once a shaman-priestess of dark powers in the mountains of Jord.
So I think it’s safe to assume there’s elemental shamans for all the elemental runes. 

[HreshtIronBorne]

There are specific shaman abilities in the RQG core book that allow a shaman to Specialize in the sense that he will be more likely to encounter more powerful examples of his specialized spirit and has a bonus to interacting with them. 

 

This has led to our shamans showing a definite tendency to specializing in the local spiritual 'fauna' so to speak. A praxian was pretty likely to take bonuses versus animal spirits and use them and their spells pretty liberally. We also used a bunch of the new spirit powers like Spirits that can bite and stuff so they can interact on multiple levels. 

[Akhôrahil]

Oakfed, Kolat, Kyger Litor…

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Is there any downside to being an "elemental shaman"?  Our party shaman is in Kolat and it seems to be all for the better.

[g33k]

15 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Is there any downside to being an "elemental shaman"?  Our party shaman is in Kolat and it seems to be all for the better.

AFAIK/IIRC, the only real downside of having taken a Shamanic "specialization" ability is that you therefore have not taken a different Shamanic ability instead (e.g. Soul Expansion, Spell Barrage, etc).

Undoubtedly, a minmax'er could figure out the "best" ones to take, and take them in order of best-then-nextbest-etc.

As a HR, I might consider a minor penalty to everything NOT within the specialty (but also, maybe not!  None of my regular players have yet expressed interest in playing a shaman, so I don't yet have to work on the "Shamans" issue).

 

[soltakss]

River Shamans and sea Shamans would be the Water ones.

Jakaleel cultists or Blue Moon cultists would be Moon Shamans.

30 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Is there any downside to being an "elemental shaman"?  Our party shaman is in Kolat and it seems to be all for the better.

Not really.

You could impose a penalty when working with an opposed element, so Darkness Shamans might find in harder to work with Fire Spirits, for example.

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Is there any downside to being an "elemental shaman"?  Our party shaman is in Kolat and it seems to be all for the better.

Taboos which limit access to other elementals. As @soltakss wrote above, but rather than just 'harder', a complete ban.

Similarly, forbidden spells, similar to the geasa of Yelmalio and other cults. A Water or Darkness great spirit might say no to having Firearrow, Fireblade, Ignite, etc

[Brian Duguid]

An obvious disadvantage of specialising is that as per Spirit Affinity (RQG page 362), opposed elemental spirits may be automatically hostile (perhaps acting as malign spirits, RQG page 342).

[svensson]

Thanks for all the good info in the replies. Plenty to think about here.

In regards to the elemental witches described in RQG and earlier editions...

My impression of the two I know about [the Earth Witch in 'Red Petals' and the witch in RQ3's 'Shadows on the Borderlands' adventure, 'Bad Day at Black Rock'], neither of them belonged to the Ernalda temples per se. Their magic seemed to be complimentary to but completely separate from the Ernalda temple hierarchy.

Is that how you guys see a Kolat-shaman interacting with Orlanth's faith?

I tried putting an Orlanthi Assistant Shaman together via the basic RQG rules. I presumed that he focused more on Primal Air [i.e. Thunderous] aspect, that he can Summon Air Elementals of any size, but chose not to purchase any other Rune spells with the character's Rune points that didn't directly effect them... just Control, Dismiss, and Summon.

But do full-fledged shamans of Orlanth exist and, if so, how do they fit into the church? Would a 'Shaman of Air' be treated as an associate cult of Kolat instead?

[Akhôrahil]

18 minutes ago, svensson said:

Is that how you guys see a Kolat-shaman interacting with Orlanth's faith?I

Yes. Kolat is Orlanth’s brother, and in some ways the shamanistic version of Orlanth Thunderous. Kolat is considered a friend and ally (of Thunderous in particular), and is important as the Father of the Umbroli. It may or may not count as an Associated Cult. But most cult activities are run seperately. The Kolating Shaman certainly isn’t in the chain of command of the Orlanth temple.

17 minutes ago, svensson said:

But do full-fledged shamans of Orlanth exist and, if so, how do they fit into the church? Would a 'Shaman of Air' be treated as an associate cult of Kolat instead?

I would say no - this is what Kolat is instead. Only few cults have both a full Runemaster hierarchy and Shamans as well (Kyger Litor is perhaps the strongest example, but everything gets mixed up in Darkness). Orlanth doesn't. Thunderous Priests can do a lot with Air elementals and cult spirits, but they're not shamans.

Although you could probably have some obscure Orlanth cult that runs shamans that everyone else would say follow "Kolat" instead.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[French Desperate WindChild]

my opinion :

there are three types of "elemental shamans"

1) those who follow an established cult (golden bow, kyger litor, aldrya...) and specialize their spells/knowledge/powers in their god element more than their god deeds/values

2) those who follow an established spirit society (oakfed, kolat, ...). They are by nature specialized in their great spirit element. Of course they have too to follow their great spirit values

3) those who don't follow any established community

 

I don't see any difference (game play speaking) between the 3 options:

they are shaman, and they have to bargain with great entities (call them gods, demi gods, great spirit, etc...) to obtain their powers.

 

The true difference is that when you are in an established cult or spirit society, you have a specific bound with the one you worship:

• you gain access to some rune spells / prayers,
• you have to obey (more or less) your hierarchy/tradition
• you are recognized as an ally or ennemy by spirits allied or hostile to your tradition

 

The 3 option is interesting :

• you can contact who you want *, including gods who don't accept shaman in their cult (so you are not a shaman of Orlanth cult, but you may be a shaman of Orlanth even if no priest will recognize you as is, Argrath where are you ?)
• you have not to follow any mundane hierarchy/tradition. You are free to do what you want
• but you cannot ask for any support from the mundane hierarchy/tradition and its associated/friends cults. You are a self made shaman
• you are not recognized as an ally or ennemy by spirits allied or hostile to the traditions of your element
• but you are not protected and can be attacked by any harsh spirit (in your element included)

 

* well except if you have accepted from one of your previous "spiritual" ally to not contact some other entities. I m not sure if you obtain some pact with Oakfed he will welcome the news that you are now Valind's or Magasta's friend  for example

 

[David Scott]

12 hours ago, svensson said:

In RQG is there such a thing as shaman that specializes in elemental spirits?

Independent of cults, yes. The easiest way to approach this to build it into their choice of Greater entity in Stage One of their initiation (see page 354). Choices for elemental Greater entities would be:

• Air - Kolat / Umbrol (one of the Dragon Pass Greater Entities, see page 359)
• Earth - Earth Witch (one of the Dragon Pass Greater Entities, see page 359), the most powerful Earth Shaman can likely see she is a mask of Gata.
• Water - King Undine, the most powerful water Shaman can likely see he is a mask of Zaramaka.
• Darkness - Nakala 
• Fire - Aether

Pure elemental shaman would transcend cults as they are mixed runes, and not pure. Anyone else is just a cult shaman.

Pure Elemental Moon shaman can likely use She Who Waits (also listed as one of the sources of the Moon rune in the upcoming prosopaedia) as a Greater Entity. These few illuminated individuals are likely the pillars of the Lunar spirit world, knowing that it actually exists inside She Who Waits.

Many pure elemental shaman would be accepted with related cults if the shaman wished, but not part of the hierarchy. Obvious connections (for Dragon Pass) are:

• Kolat - the Orlanth Cult, they would be most likely be an Orlanth Thunderous initiate, but could be God Talker or Storm Voice.
• Earth Witch - the Ernalda Cult, they would be most likely be an initiate, but could be Wise Woman or Earth Priestesses.
• King Undine - most likely be an the Magasta Priest or shaman of Triolina
• Nakala - the Kygor Litor Cult, they would be most likely be a shaman-priestess, but could be an initiate.
• Aether - Only possible amongst the Grazers, most likely be an Yelm the Archer Initiate, unlikely to be a Golden Bow shaman (conflicting greater Deities in a hierarchical setting Yelm is the son of Aether)
• Moon - Most likely the Red Goddess cult as an initiate.

Edited April 13, 2022 by David Scott

[Rodney Dangerduck]

9 hours ago, soltakss said:

You could impose a penalty when working with an opposed element

Good concept.  Except "Opposed Elements" is not really an official thing.  I vaguely recall some of that in past material, but didn't always make a ton of sense when you got down to it...  Especially with Glorantha's unusual "Dark defeated Light" mythology.

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Similarly, forbidden spells, similar to the geasa of Yelmalio and other cults

Reasonable, but it's not clear what spirit spells might be forbidden to Kolat.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Rodney Dangerduck

[David Scott]

14 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Except "Opposed Elements" is not really an official thing.

Not opposites exactly, but a wheel of who overcomes who. It's on the adventurer sheets: Air beats Fire beats Darkness beats Water beats Earth beats Air. It's based Zzabur's Sigil (Glorantha Sourcebook 194 or GtG 149). I'd have the shaman discover their own, see also 

 

[Richard S.]

41 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Not opposites exactly, but a wheel of who overcomes who. It's on the adventurer sheets: Air beats Fire beats Darkness beats Water beats Earth beats Air. It's based Zzabur's Sigil (Glorantha Sourcebook 194 or GtG 149). I'd have the shaman discover their own, see also 

IIRC, Dark->Water->Earth->Air->Fire is the cosmological arrangement, dark on bottom and fire on top, and is also the order in which the elements are usually presented in rulebooks. The wheel showing who overcomes who, Zzabur's Sigil, is Dark->Earth->Air->Water->Fire->Dark, and tracing the pentacle gives us the dark->water->earth->fire->air genealogy as well.

[Shiningbrow]

16 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Reasonable, but it's not clear what spirit spells might be forbidden to Kolat.

Yeah, I haven't thought that far ahead...

[Bill the barbarian]

On 4/12/2022 at 7:35 PM, HreshtIronBorne said:

There are specific shaman abilities in the RQG core book that allow a shaman to Specialize in the sense that he will be more likely to encounter more powerful examples of his specialized spirit and has a bonus to interacting with them. 

 

Combine that w with creating a Spirit Cult et voila.