Are Gloranthan Lions Cats ?

[scott-martin]

On 8/27/2022 at 3:31 PM, Eff said:

If you liked the idea of the "Atroxi Church", this would also be a way to reintroduce the concept, tying it into totem societies in Seshnela, as Panthera atrox is an extinct species of cave lion, and this would be Ethilrist reinventing the lion society following his prolonged katabasis. 

Within such proximity of people talking about pumas, the notion that Ethilrist takes over from the puma people is too tempting to remain silent.

A little more seriously, sakkar, basmol and "hsa" (not actually an original hsun chen nation in the archaic sources so possibly a later import, invasion or invention) can all be yinkin's relatives to the exact extent people who care about yinkin care to prove the relationships. Personally I think it's really interesting to contemplate scratchy little yinkin as someone who can draw on the primal terror surrounding sakkar (dinofelis, the pelorian devil who together with digijelm taught them to fear the night). Other yinkinists might dream of reestablishing one of the royal basmol dynasties. 

But the fact that none of them seems to have tried yet reflects something essential in their nature.

The Seshnegite attitude toward cat people is more complicated . . . the magical goal is served when they're kept disunited and weak, so that's how the genealogies were enforced. It can work backward. Nothing says a given phylum or tribe can't be adopted or fostered into a new taxonomy to acquire a different set of magical prerogatives and obligations. Use the weapons of the taxonomists against them.

[g33k]

To answer the OP:

"YGWV"
😁

[davecake]

On 8/27/2022 at 5:06 PM, svensson said:

In another discussion, we dived into the question 'Is there a Grandmother Bat?'

I personally came down on 'Yes, there is and she's MIGHTILY pissed off at the Crimson Bat's corruption of her people.'

Similarly, there is a non-Chaotic god of scorpions who hates Bagog, and goat people unconnected to Ragnaglar and Broo. And other Chaotic species hated by the original non-Chaotic version, like Damali? versus Dorastan slime deer. Chaos sits outside the genealogies of other creatures. 
Though bats are a little more complex - the Dara Happan goddess of bats is also a Death god and associated with the Blue Moon as well as Artia the bat planet, so while not Chaotic has been incorporated somewhat into the Lunar religion, and was an enemy god of Yelm. The Hsunchen bat deity of the Pujaleg bat Hsunchen appears to still be associated with the blue moon and other celestial deities, even in Pamaltela (ie see Guide p.561). 
The Crimson Bat is definitely a Chaotic corruption of a previous bat-monster, but the previous monster was still a terrifying demon of Death, and it’s unknown when it was corrupted by Chaos - while the Crimson Bat as we know it was brought back from the Underworld by Sedenya and was far more Chaotic than it had been, the previous version was banished by Arkat and he must have had good reason, perhaps it was turned to Chaos by Gbaji in the First Age? There is enough there that a good story of bat corruption could fuel some interesting material for bat mythology adventures (perhaps connected to Harrek’s conquest of the Pujaleg in Laskal). 

[davecake]

On 8/28/2022 at 8:57 PM, svensson said:

I live in the US Pacific Northwest. We have three local native Orca /killer whale pods. Messing with those whales in any way, shape, or form and you'll be answering charges from the county, state, and federal courts. The whales can initiate contact on their own... they often pop up to see what the bipeds are up to... but you stay in the area at your own risk

There have been a recent spate of attacks on sailboats by or as off the coast of Spain and Portugal, which indicates that orcas can be a significant threat to humans if they decide to be hostile. It appears limited to there, possibly to a single pod. It’s fascinating, because it shows how much of orca behaviour is learned and ‘cultural’ - orcas can pick up behaviour from each other, and transmit it to others. This shows how important control of orca interaction is, a pattern of hostile to human behaviour could start from an bad human behaviour, and potentially get learned by others. 
We know that pods can differ in their hunting and other behaviour quite a bit, that individuals can transfer between pods and change their behaviour to fit in. Most amusingly, they even appear to have fads - there is a recorded incident of multiple orcas all adopting the odd habit of balancing a dead salmon on their nose for a season, then giving it up the next year. 
Which all adds up to me thinking of orca as some level of sapient, in Glorantha and probably Earth as well. 

Obligatory Glorantha - there isn’t much about cetaceans written in Glorantha, but we know they exist, and are all over the place - or at least, in the frozen waters of the north-west Hudaro ocean (many species including baleen whales), in the warm waters of the south-west Swemela (Worm) sea, and Orcas at least in the Kahar Sea in the north-East. They are children of Tholaina, goddess of sea animals, and some Storm deity (I’d suggest mostly descendants of Valind). Whales seem to be summonable by the Magasta cult, and also used as war beasts by Waertagi (perhaps by the same means, as some Waertagi worship Magasta). This seems to indicate they are allied with the Sea gods, like their cetoi cousins the Ludoch. Some sources say there was a third type of cetoi merman, the hreekeen whale men, until they were destroyed by the God Learners in the Third Age (probably because they were Waertagi allies). 

We know that orcas in particular are significant in the north-east, in Kahar’s Sea of Fog, and we know that there is a Cult of the Orca in Kralorela, which humans learnt of from Thunhin Da, the Dragon of the Waters, to combat the Zabdamar mermen. This becomes a potentially quite complex story - because the Kralorelan dragon Thrunhin Da is claimed to be the same being as the East Isles sea goddess Harantara, and the Zabdamar are the children of Harantara and Kahar. So what is Thrunhin Da doing creating a human cult of the Orca in order to war on her own children? And what do Orca (presuming intelligence) think of it? Orca IRL have been observed attacking dolphins and even right whales on occasion - I’m tempted to make them not unified, not all worshipping sea powers, and perhaps having a role in the fairly complex story of familial disharmony among the sea powers that is the core of the Harantara story, especially as, like all Cetoi, there will be a storm god as their ancestor. 
 

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

The Crimson Bat is definitely a Chaotic corruption of a previous bat-monster, but the previous monster was still a terrifying demon of Death, and it’s unknown when it was corrupted by Chaos - while the Crimson Bat as we know it was brought back from the Underworld by Sedenya and was far more Chaotic than it had been, the previous version was banished by Arkat and he must have had good reason, perhaps it was turned to Chaos by Gbaji in the First Age? There is enough there that a good story of bat corruption could fuel some interesting material for bat mythology adventures (perhaps connected to Harrek’s conquest of the Pujaleg in Laskal). 

Isn't the corruption of the Crimson Bat related to the death of Muharzam while the Face of Yelm by Orlanth?

[svensson]

@davecake I too am more and more convinced that cetaceans are probably sentient, but if so it's a VERY different kind of intelligence.

David Brin and Doug Adams anyone? 😁

Edited September 1, 2022 by svensson

[Joerg]

On 8/27/2022 at 11:06 AM, svensson said:

Sure.

In another discussion, we dived into the question 'Is there a Grandmother Bat?'

I personally came down on 'Yes, there is and she's MIGHTILY pissed off at the Crimson Bat's corruption of her people.'

Artia the Bat is a southpath planet, with ties to both the Rinliddi death deity and the Pujaleg ancestress.

AFAIK the Crimson Bat used to be a darker, more bluish hue in the Dawn Age until Arkat overcame and flayed it. No idea at which occasion, though, or what happened to that skin. The bat went to Hell, where it was re-discovered by that patchwork goddess incarnated in Teelo Norri's body.

BTW, no idea whether the Bat was already (as) chaotic in the Gbaji Wars as it was when the Red Goddess brought it back from her goddess-quest which culminated in her whole-heartedly embracing Chaos. The monster appearing at the First Battle of Chaos might have been (further) corrupted by the Goddess.

Artia is not commonly counted among the Lunar bodies in the sky, although there are (old) mostly unpublished texts that mention her as a moon.

 

9 hours ago, davecake said:

Similarly, there is a non-Chaotic god of scorpions who hates Bagog, and goat people unconnected to Ragnaglar and Broo. And other Chaotic species hated by the original non-Chaotic version, like Damali? versus Dorastan slime deer. Chaos sits outside the genealogies of other creatures. 

Chaos can occupy a branch of such a genealogy with the rest of the genealogy refraining from cutting their ties with the unfortunate chaotics. The Cave Trolls are such a case.

The Telmori don't quite count because they acquired Chaos only within Time, during the Gbaji Wars, but the same might be true about the Bat.

 

9 hours ago, davecake said:

Though bats are a little more complex - the Dara Happan goddess of bats is also a Death god

And one of the four Rebel Gods who collectively caused the death of the Emperor and the downfall of Brighteye. While active cooperation between Orlanth and Jagrekriand (Shargash) seems unlikely, the same might be said about the siblings Verithurusa and Shargash.

The Bat would only have become a Death God through her association with the killing of the Emperor and the dismemberment of Yelm, as there was only one earlier recorded Death, that of gramps Morty, with a very limited audience of four - Eurmal, Humakt, Nontraya, and Flesh Man. (Although there may be a different First Death in each pantheon. An irreversible change in Age of the World, aka Green Age moment, might be a wave-front rather than a singular event.)

 

9 hours ago, davecake said:

and associated with the Blue Moon

I had the impression that at the time of the rebellion against Yelm and slaying of the Emperor, it was Natha or Verithurusa who took part in that coup - possibly a late come-back for Yelm Brightface stealing sovereignty from the cyclical White Goddess(es).

 

9 hours ago, davecake said:

as well as Artia the bat planet, so while not Chaotic has been incorporated somewhat into the Lunar religion, and was an enemy god of Yelm. The Hsunchen bat deity of the Pujaleg bat Hsunchen appears to still be associated with the blue moon and other celestial deities, even in Pamaltela (ie see Guide p.561). 

The Vampire Bat pujalegs are dabbling in Chaos much like the Greater Darkness Artmali were, and they seem to be the power behind the Pujaleg Empire.

There is a bat goddess of the Blue Moon Plateau, and Greg's idea of the Blue Moon trolls about 20 years ago included two different types and tribes of bat-winged trolls descended of and worshipping the Bat Goddess, one with their arms adapted as wings much like bats are, the other "balrog-shaped" and thus six-limbed.

 

9 hours ago, davecake said:

The Crimson Bat is definitely a Chaotic corruption of a previous bat-monster, but the previous monster was still a terrifying demon of Death, and it’s unknown when it was corrupted by Chaos - while the Crimson Bat as we know it was brought back from the Underworld by Sedenya and was far more Chaotic than it had been, the previous version was banished by Arkat and he must have had good reason, perhaps it was turned to Chaos by Gbaji in the First Age?

Whether it received a special gift from Gbaji or not, if Arkat slew it there is a possibility that he cursed the flayed almost-carcass with Chaos as he tossed it into the lowest Hell. Chaotic Dorastor was created by Arkat. Nysalor's Dorastor had Chaos, but not yet the verdant land, only its sapient inhabitants desperately fighting Arkat.

The Red Goddess is the third possible culprit. Like Arkat, she might have been shedding some of her chaotic nature on the Bat.

 

9 hours ago, davecake said:

There is enough there that a good story of bat corruption could fuel some interesting material for bat mythology adventures (perhaps connected to Harrek’s conquest of the Pujaleg in Laskal). 

The bat trolls of the Blue Moon Plateau might have one or two other paths to deal with the corruption and its perpretators.

There might be a portion of Hell dominated by bat entities, connected to the Rinliddi demon and possibly the Blue Moon Plateau trolls, and with vents unknown and impassable to non-Hellbats.

[Akhôrahil]

On 8/27/2022 at 9:34 AM, Darius West said:

You raise a very fair question.  The answer is probably that Basmol was a different beast, and is now dead.  Large cats like sabretooth tigers, tigers etc are likely descended from Yinkin not Basmol therefore.

I don't believe this for sabretooths or tigers either - the Sabretooth god is Sakkar and he's no friend of Yinkin's, and Tigers have the Hsa Hsunchen with their separate great spirit while Yinkin famously has no shadowcat hsunchen as he ditched his sprit part.

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I don't believe this for sabretooths or tigers either - the Sabretooth god is Sakkar and he's no friend of Yinkin's, and Tigers have the Hsa Hsunchen with their separate great spirit while Yinkin famously has no shadowcat hsunchen as he ditched his sprit part.

I don't think the story of Yinkin ditching his spirit part has been canononical for quite a while and the deities of the Hsunchen are all Gods (Telmor, Basmol etc) not Great Spirits.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

I don't think the story of Yinkin ditching his spirit part has been canononical for quite a while

I mean, it's in BoHM and hasn't been contradicted as far as I know. If it's not fully canonical, it seems pretty close, at least?

[metcalph]

13 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I mean, it's in BoHM and hasn't been contradicted as far as I know. If it's not fully canonical, it seems pretty close, at least?

Some parts of Book of Heortling Mythology have been abandoned.  

[Agentorange]

Having started this whole thing off, my solution  - in the spirit of YGMV is that there going to be a few gaps filled in on the animal geneology tree, Fralor will be responsible for lots of felines via unions with  Mother Mammal , or possibly Mother Feline ( or Mother Tibbles if I'm in a whimsical mood ) there may well be Mother Canines and Mother Ursines as well.

Not canon,  nor do I expect it to be, but if it works well enough for my purposes I'm gonna run with it.

[Darius West]

18 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I don't believe this for sabretooths or tigers either - the Sabretooth god is Sakkar and he's no friend of Yinkin's, and Tigers have the Hsa Hsunchen with their separate great spirit while Yinkin famously has no shadowcat hsunchen as he ditched his sprit part.

Okay, but are Sakkar and Hsa children of Basmol or Yinkin?  You only get one choice as they are the only children of Fralar the primal predator they can choose from.  I would suggest that Basmol comes from Pamaltela, so it must be Yinkin.  Neither tigers nor sabertooths have manes.

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, Agentorange said:

Having started this whole thing off, my solution  - in the spirit of YGMV is that there going to be a few gaps filled in on the animal geneology tree, Fralor will be responsible for lots of felines via unions with  Mother Mammal , or possibly Mother Feline ( or Mother Tibbles if I'm in a whimsical mood ) there may well be Mother Canines and Mother Ursines as well.

Given that Basmol and Basmola are the parents of lions, other mothers are likely easily made - Rathora (in older texts), Telmora (in older texts) and we know who Yinkin's mother is.

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

Okay, but are Sakkar and Hsa children of Basmol or Yinkin? 

Does it have to be either, as opposed to from Fralar? I don’t think we have one single Cat Father (even though that would be practical)?

Edited September 4, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

Okay, but are Sakkar and Hsa children of Basmol or Yinkin?

Sabertooths (called  Sakkar by the Pelorians) are the children of Sakkar, the God of Fear and Hunter of Men from Doblian (GtG 312, and on the God's Wall 678).

Hsa tiger Hsunchen are the children of Longhsa Shan Mountain: The Dragon Tiger Mountain is the mother of the Hsa Tiger People of Kralorela and Teshnos. (GtG 271). Similar to Yinkin and Kero Fin.

I also suggest looking at Greg Sez: Rathori Creation Myth 

[Eff]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Given that Basmol and Basmola are the parents of lions, other mothers are likely easily made - Rathora (in older texts), Telmora (in older texts) and we know who Yinkin's mother is.

Side note: the interchangeability of Basmol and Basmola in myth is strongly suggestive of these pairs being single entities reproducing via parthenogenesis or hermaphroditic autofertilization to produce kinds of animals. 

[Brian Duguid]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

I also suggest looking at Greg Sez: Rathori Creation Myth 

I guess Greg was very into the "uncle" thing when he wrote that (and the associated "What my Uncle told me" for the Rathori as the Hsunchen exemplar).

I think it's a useful text in pushing back against the whole idea that there's any neat phylogenetic tree for the Gloranthan beasts, like the ones that will presumably be in the Prosopaedia. No, just because the only cats shown under Fralar are Basmol and Yinkin doesn't mean that all other Gloranthan cats are descended from lions and alynxes! 🙂

I wonder who the "Sungchi" might be, listed as one of the First Folk in that myth. If it wasn't for their Uncle Tana/Tara being the "Noon World" I'd have guessed the Owls.

There is also the "*" first people, whose Uncle is Inikos of Below, who I take to be the Bats.

The mention of Sakkar is interesting: all the other peoples mentioned had Hsunchen descendants, except for Coyote (Trickster?) and Puma (let's not get into that one).

Sakkar sabretooth Hsunchen would be extremely cool. I did briefly consider mentioning them in The Children of Hykim but thought better of it.

I like the links to the land goddesses in that myth as well.

[scott-martin]

15 minutes ago, Brian Duguid said:

I guess Greg was very into the "uncle" thing when he wrote that (and the associated "What my Uncle told me" for the Rathori as the Hsunchen exemplar).

Oh you know, there was a long moment when the avuncular relationship was considered essential to male transmission before ideas of paternity took over. I'm sure a lot of the details been deprecated now anthropologically but it was even trendy in my family within my lifetime.

[Brian Duguid]

6 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Oh you know, there was a long moment when the avuncular relationship was considered essential to male transmission before ideas of paternity took over. I'm sure a lot of the details been deprecated now anthropologically but it was even trendy in my family within my lifetime.

Oh yes, it's definitely a thing, it's just these were some of the only occasions where it was so clearly expressed. Other nomadic tribes in Glorantha (e.g. the Praxians) appear to take paternity more seriously.

[Erol of Backford]

Would Pamaltelian Basmoli be kaki in color on the plains and darker like a panther in the jungles? What about those from Prax?

[Joerg]

9 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Would Pamaltelian Basmoli be kaki in color on the plains and darker like a panther in the jungles? What about those from Prax?

Ask yourself: What skin color will show if you shave a lion? At a guess, it will be dark brown or even black. Fur pigmentation may be lighter.

 

Pamaltelan Basmoli are definitely Agimori in appearance. The Basmoli berserkers of Prax are supposedly Wareran in appearance, but that doesn't mean light skin color any more than it does for e.g. the Impala riders. The Pendali (descendants of Basmol and Seshna Likita) may appear Wareran, too, although there may have been pure-blooded Pamaltelan Basmoli among them when they or at least their deities arrived in Seshnela.

IMG the Pendali are a demigod ruling lineage no longer quite as Hsunchen as their kinsfolk descended only from their beast deity ancestors, more versed in other magics than Hykimi shape-shifting. The Serpent King dynasty faced three children of Basmol and a Pendali great-great-granddaughter of his, including a "sorcerer" making dark pacts with quite evil deities, and a witch sister who ends up confronting her sorcerer brother after having been "tamed" by one of the Seshnegi men-of-all for a while. Later, as a widow, she becomes the wife of one of the less militant Pendali "kings", and her sons play various roles as the conflict fades out in favor for the Malkioni.

As of the Dawn, the Wareran farmer caste folk are nearly as dark-brown in skin color as some of the Agimori of southern Pamaltela, never mind the broad range of skin color among the Thinobutan "Agimori" who populate much of coastal Pamaltela, strongest in Maslo and Kimos, dominant (but still enslaved) in Thinokos in the eastern part of the Fonritian peninsula, and surviving on the Kumanku archipelago.