Charisma ( CHA ) and Broo and Tusk riders ( oh my...)

[Agentorange]

I'm curious why these CHA scores for these and other races are so incredibly low...especially for Tusk Riders.

[David Scott]

CHA is the measure of leadership and strength of personality. Tusk Riders are weak willed, squabbling people, and are a loathsome, bestial race which is, at best, disliked by everyone. Their Cult of the Bloody Tusk, glorifies combat and blood sacrifice. The religion is extremely cruel and brutal and provides terrible magic to the worshipers, at the cost of their victims’ souls.

Their bestial nature is a great part of their CHA. Without CHA or INT they would just be vicious pack hunters. 

[Akhôrahil]

32 minutes ago, David Scott said:

weak willed, squabbling people, and are a loathsome, bestial race which is, at best, disliked by everyone

Ducks get the full 3d6. 😉

[metcalph]

3 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Ducks get the full 3d6. 😉

Ducks are renegade Keets rather than a vile species in their own right.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Ducks get the full 3d6.

Please keep to the topic rather than derailing it with Ducks. As has been mentioned they are not one of the peoples that have incredibly low CHA.

I would suggest we are talking about peoples that have 1D6 CHA, as opposed to low 2D6. At the moment I can only see Tusk Riders & Cave Trolls.

Edited December 10, 2022 by David Scott

[Arcadiagt5]

Worth noting in passing that Tusk Riders have a special rule exempting them from the CHA18 requirement for Rune Lords. I don’t have the Bestiary handy but I think the requirement is for 6 or possibly 7 (which would be the species max) instead. 

[Godlearner]

The big problem I have with CHA and these creatures is that CHA limits the amount of magic one can know for both Spirit and Rune. 

[Akhôrahil]

25 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

The big problem I have with CHA and these creatures is that CHA limits the amount of magic one can know for both Spirit and Rune. 

This issue is inherent in combining looks & personality with potential for divine and spiritual connection. It's not obvious why the Bloody Tusk would care about your CHA, unless these two factors are metaphysically linked somehow.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Ormi Phengaria]

Worth noting that CHA in RQG is neither appearance nor "personal allure", but strength of personality. CHA matters to magic not as potential for connection (really, that would be POW), but as the ability to continue to distinguish yourself from the abstract or immaterial forces of personality, that is the gods and spirits, which you are interacting with. For this reason it also applies to distinguishing yourself from other mortal people, i.e. through leadership.

[EricW]

Maybe there is a case for using POW as CHA when Tusk Riders are interacting with other riders? Or Broo interacting with other Broo? A leader has to have charisma in some form, even if the only beings which appreciate it are their fellow horde.

[Martin Dick]

53 minutes ago, EricW said:

Maybe there is a case for using POW as CHA when Tusk Riders are interacting with other riders? Or Broo interacting with other Broo? A leader has to have charisma in some form, even if the only beings which appreciate it are their fellow horde.

In the land of the low CHA, the tusk rider with a 7 CHA is King

[Mugen]

22 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This issue is inherent in combining looks & personality with potential for divine and spiritual connection. It's not obvious why the Bloody Tusk would care about your CHA, unless these two factors are metaphysically linked somehow.

Clearly, this was an attempt to make CHA more... appealing... which has unexpected impact on some species.

[Andrew M]

If for some reason I was running a game were the PC's where Tusk Riders I would revisit the charisma , to allow it to scale for social interactions between Tusk Riders. When they are NPC's the low score is fine although if they were main antagonists to experienced pc's I would consider allowing them to learn extra spirit magic and rune magic

[Squaredeal Sten]

I recall a rule of thumb somewhere in RQG, to the effect that interspecies CHA effects are at -10.  I cant reference that.  Perhaps Tusk Riders' effective CHA could be set at +10 for relations with other Tusk Riders.

On the other hand Tusk Rides don't really need  CHA boost for magic, because with Bloody Tusk  rune magic they can bind spirits into body parts.  Sort of like Thanatari but different.  

But a Tusk Rider PC??  That's real dedication to playing the bad guys.  Too many gratuitous torture sessions for my taste.

 

 

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I recall a rule of thumb somewhere in RQG, to the effect that interspecies CHA effects are at -10.  I cant reference that.  Perhaps Tusk Riders' effective CHA could be set at +10 for relations with other Tusk Riders.

 

Don’t remember if it is rqg or not. But it is for sure in previous rule. However I don’t conclude like you

the cha is not +10 if between tusk riders: it is -10 with others species (mmm 0 ?!)

the base cha tells you what is your magic limits and some others abilities

the -10 is a global penalty to social interaction with other… and who wants to have social interaction with tusk riders ?

 imo the design tells us that tusk riders are not good for magic by themselves but thanks to their cults / ancestors / what you want… have an ability to be powerful by other ways (as you described )

[French Desperate WindChild]

7 hours ago, EricW said:

Maybe there is a case for using POW as CHA when Tusk Riders are interacting with other riders? Or Broo interacting with other Broo? A leader has to have charisma in some form, even if the only beings which appreciate it are their fellow horde

 

imo it is not really modern leadership

(and yes modern leadership uses cha)

the point here is if you are broo, tusk riders or scorpion people you will follow your « leader » only if you think he (she for scorpion) is stronger than anyone else you know (you included)

I play all these good guys decision with the fear mechanism :

i fear my boss more than the danger in front of me then I obey my boss

i fear the danger more than my boss then I flee the danger

i think I m stronger than my boss and there is no other danger or competitor in my opinion  then I challenge my boss to become the new boss

nothing about leadership there (so no cha) i agree than pow could be used but more to simulate if the no-boss is courageous enough to decide to challenge the boss but not because the boss (after all he will not challenge if he doesn’t think able to win) more because the others (ok I will win but probably will be wounded… I fear -again- that another one will take the opportunity to defeat me)

Edited December 11, 2022 by French Desperate WindChild

[Ormi Phengaria]

10 hours ago, Mugen said:

Clearly, this was an attempt to make CHA more... appealing... which has unexpected impact on some species.

I don't know if it's unexpected. Their Rune Lords are literally called Leaders, and rather than a CHA requirement, get the status by demonstrating any leadership in raids and battle at all (alongside the skill requirements.)

[Darius West]

On 12/10/2022 at 9:22 PM, Akhôrahil said:

Ducks get the full 3d6. 😉

This needs to change.  2d4+1 max for ducks

Edited December 12, 2022 by Darius West

[Darius West]

On 12/10/2022 at 7:00 PM, Agentorange said:

I'm curious why these CHA scores for these and other races are so incredibly low...especially for Tusk Riders.

This is a fair question.  Frankly there is this hang over from D&D that Charisma is somehow attractiveness when in fact it is a measure of leadership and strength of personality.  This makes charisma sound more like a Willpower stat.  RQG Page 52 goes on to say that it should not be mistaken for mere attractiveness.  

Now, to be fair, perhaps we need to create a derived attractiveness stat?  I would suggest that we divide each of CON (healthiness is a fundamental of attractiveness, if you aren't healthy you are not at your best, and wan looking droopy sorts are not in fashion during the Hero Wars), DEX (human beauty standards across all cultures tend to favor the gracile look which is indicated by high dexterity), and finally CHA (personal magnetism matters).  Divide each by 3, rounding up each fraction, and add them together, then halve if you aren't human or at least human-like in facial appearance.

Arguably there is no reason why a tusk rider or troll might have less leadership and strength of personality than a human.  The fact that their charisma is low is purely a result of bad writing imo as it reflects only that they're ugly, which is exactly what the rules say should not be the case for assigning CHA.

[Mugen]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

This is a fair question.  Frankly there is this hang over from D&D that Charisma is somehow attractiveness when in fact it is a measure of leadership and strength of personality.  This makes charisma sound more like a Willpower stat.  RQG Page 52 goes on to say that it should not be mistaken for mere attractiveness.  

(...)

Arguably there is no reason why a tusk rider or troll might have less leadership and strength of personality than a human.  The fact that their charisma is low is purely a result of bad writing imo as it reflects only that they're ugly, which is exactly what the rules say should not be the case for assigning CHA.

I agree with this, but, on the other hand, Uz have a CHA value of 3D6, and I don't think they looked more attractive to humans in the eyes of the people who did the first stat blocks.

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Now, to be fair, perhaps we need to create a derived attractiveness stat?

I really don't think that's necessary, and I'm fine with CHA as attractiveness. Also, I think which attributes are appealing depend on each individual.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Mugen

[svensson]

On 12/10/2022 at 12:00 AM, Agentorange said:

I'm curious why these CHA scores for these and other races are so incredibly low...especially for Tusk Riders.

Uh... because they are half troll, half pig and tend to take after the latter.

I understand that 'charisma' takes into account more aspects than just attractiveness and an inspiring personality to a Tusker is going to be different than that of a Sartarite. But the basic behavior favored by the race and their leadership techniques tends to degrade their CHA stat.

Now, that doesn't mean you can't custom design your own Tusk Rider super-boss. A highly charismatic and magically powerful Tusk Rider chieftain could seriously upend the balance of power in the Dragon Pass region. Tuskers are a pain the fundament now, but if they ever got really organized they could be terrifying. Think 'Ralzakark of Dorastor' with cavalry. That could be a Very Bad Thing that might require some real thrillin' heroics [nod to 'Firefly'] to put right.

[Darius West]

1 hour ago, Mugen said:

I agree with this, but, on the other hand, Uz have a CHA value of 3D6, and I don't think they looked more attractive to humans in the eyes of the people who did the first stat blocks.

I seem to recall that the writers of Trollpak reached a similar conclusion as we did.  The writers of Broos and Tusk Riders, not so much.

1 hour ago, Mugen said:

I really don't think that's necessary, and I'm fine with CHA as attractiveness. Also, I think which attributes are appealing depend on each individual.

Except that the RQG rules specifically tell us that CHA is not about attractiveness, so there in fact is no Attractiveness stat.  According to the present rules Hon-Eel the Artess can only have a strong will and ability to lead.  She may well have a face like a robber's dog according to RQG.

As to beauty being an individual choice, nothing in Anthropology bears this out.  Beauty standards are remarkably consistent across cultures, with the notable exception that the Middle Easterners used to be "chubby chasers" prior to 1900.  And before anyone says anything, please remember that Kink Shaming is my kink.

[Scotty]

Please not derail this thread with Ducks, they have 3D6 CHA and as such do not have the incredibly low CHA. If you need to discuss Ducks further, please open a new thread.

[svensson]

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Please not derail this thread with Ducks, they have 3D6 CHA and as such do not have the incredibly low CHA. If you need to discuss Ducks further, please open a new thread.

Chaosium Scotty: Duck Wrangler 😁

[svensson]

14 hours ago, Darius West said:

I seem to recall that the writers of Trollpak reached a similar conclusion as we did.  The writers of Broos and Tusk Riders, not so much.

Except that the RQG rules specifically tell us that CHA is not about attractiveness, so there in fact is no Attractiveness stat.  According to the present rules Hon-Eel the Artess can only have a strong will and ability to lead.  She may well have a face like a robber's dog according to RQG.

As to beauty being an individual choice, nothing in Anthropology bears this out.  Beauty standards are remarkably consistent across cultures, with the notable exception that the Middle Easterners used to be "chubby chasers" prior to 1900.  And before anyone says anything, please remember that Kink Shaming is my kink.

Well, I think even a human can see the 'charisma' of a Uzuz Matriarch even if he's repulsed by almost everything else about her.

I mean, to take an extreme example, look at Adolf Hitler. He wasn't handsome, quite a bit of what he said is very ugly, and even his speaking style was overwrought. When he started out, he was so poor a public speaker that he had to take classical rhetoric lessons. I've watched a fair number of his speeches in their entirety as a military historian and what cannot be denied about the man is that had a certain magnetism, that indefinable 'something' that drew people to him. Reagan, Thatcher, Bill Clinton, all those had that same quality as politicians. You don't have to like them, I certainly don't, but identifying their ability isn't 'liking' them.

Getting more Glorantha-specific here, it may simply be that some races are ill-favored and lack that magnetic personality trait in the genome. If we can accept enlo [trollkin], newtlings, baboons, etc. are lacking certain traits [intelligence, willpower, whatever], it's not unreasonable to think that broo and tusk riders lack the magnetism and leadership ability for what the 3d6's call 'Charisma'.

And if you want to change that at your table, have at it. YGMV and all that.

Edited December 12, 2022 by svensson