Observations of the Lunar Way Cults.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

The Lunar Cults should provide

1. Worthy and challenging adversaries for most PCs
2. Interesting opportunities for some PCs

I think Yanafal is a success.  And I really like His gifts and geases, because they are simple and (largely) logical, with little need for a GM to interpret.  The Humakt geases require a lot of GM interpretation.

As for some of the other cults, at a very preliminary reading, I somewhat agree with @Eff, they do seem lacking in magic and "cool stuff".  Some of which, like leadership for Deezola, I was expecting. 

Whether that is mythically correct or not, ultimately,  I don't care.  The cults are there to support the game.

Now, maybe, as I explore the combined arms aspects of the Lunar Way, they will become more interesting.  I very much hope so.

[theconfusingeel]

52 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

The cult of Sartar won’t give its members all the weird personal magic Sartar used as a wonder-working magician who eventually became a minor god.

The cult of Hon-eel doesn’t give its members all the weird personal magic Hon-eel used as a wonder-working heroine who eventually became a minor goddess.

This honestly shouldn’t come as a surprise to anybody, but apparently it does.

I don't think anybody was expecting a "people to termites" spell(i know that's sartar but whatever), just that the cult would be different than it is in the book

[Memestream]

Some spicy peppers in this thread. I think I'm going to give especially sickle-shaped chilis to Hon-Eel IMG to commemorate this mythic correspondence.

I'll also confess that I start from myth in all cases(not just this one, and not just regarding rune spells) and read all cult defined rune spells as "guaranteed minimum availabilities" rather than comprehensive lists of the feats performable by members of those cults. As whether or not accurate or even helpful to the discussion, I construe official source material for RUNEQUEST as more like a hobby kit than a finished model. From that perspective, I feel like the writeups in this book are pretty adequate, and what's listed seems like appropriate foundation material.

I would shake my head at someone who tried to suggest that Hon-Eel is just another grain goddess though.

[Eff]

5 minutes ago, theconfusingeel said:

I don't think anybody was expecting a "people to termites" spell(i know that's sartar but whatever), just that the cult would be different than it is in the book

It's a line of reasoning that could be applied quite easily to Orlanth, of course: "the cult of Orlanth won't give its members the weird personal magic Orlanth used," that's why there's no weather magic provided, and so on. So with Hon-eel we could point to the decision to make her sole spells ones to bless corn and to make herself more sexually desirable and ask whether she should have a third spell related to her actions in some fashion- perhaps breaking a barrier, or disguising herself an anonymous individual, or whatever. 

But another alternative would be to assume that the goddess herself understands her cult primarily as a kind of harem, and thus provides maize blessings grudgingly and spells to make the maize dancers all pretty for her.

[theconfusingeel]

As a side note, does anybody else like Jakaleel?
I don't think it would lack power seeing that it's a shaman cult, and I like the opportunities it gives with it being darkness aligned, things like being lunar but also part of the ZZ cult.

[g33k]

6 hours ago, Eff said:

... it's a question (to me) of whether her mythological actions (breaching the barriers of the Lunar Sacred Time rituals, befriending the dragon and sending him away from Doblian, turning the Telmori into wolves to break their curse, bringing back maize through ritually slaughtering the Blood Sun, the long and complicated mythological actions necessary to produce the twin deities Nightlight and Twilight, and proving that She-Who-Waits was Ernalda to the people of Tarsh) are indeed represented fairly by those two runespells and only those two runespells ...

I think this is a fair standard to look for, albeit:

6 hours ago, Eff said:

 ... in the end, all fiction is mutable in a way that the real world is not.

We know that RQ:G is explicitly paving its own canonical ground, and that prior "canon" is not to be relied-upon.

Still, I'd have expected a bit more substance.  Bless Corn for Hon-eel seems like a mandatory one, for sure!
And Charisma for the Artess?  Oh, yeah.

Stopping there... notsomuch, tbh.

Doesn't have to be a LOT more, but IMHO there should be (at least a bit) more.  But it's within the scope of "MGWV" variation...  I can add as feels right.

 

Also noting:

8 hours ago, theconfusingeel said:

...
Also I would have thought they'd leen a bit into Hon-eel's violent aspect too, I was expecting her to be a mix of babeester gor and a grain goddess I guess.

I don't think Hon-eel has a combat aspect (a la Babeester Gor), though she has a bloody one.

 

But honestly, @Eff... despite largely agreeing with many of your points, this bit:

7 hours ago, Eff said:

... because of gendered assumptions that appear to apply to any new cults that are being formatted ...

Yeah... that feels like an ad hominem attack.

Personally, tho:  I wouldn't call Charisma a "girly" or "Passive" spell:  have you looked at what that does for Spirit Combat (particularly for a high-CHA priestess-type) ??!?   Getting access to that runespell, however they can, is like "Life Goals" for most shaman-types, just sayin'

Edited May 23 by g33k

[Akhôrahil]

41 minutes ago, g33k said:

 have you looked at what that does for Spirit Combat (particularly for a high-CHA priestess-type) ??!?   Getting access to that runespell, however they can, is like "Life Goals" for most shaman-types, just sayin'

I know I have - last session our shaman under Charisma one-shotted an opposing POW 25 Centipede spirit in the very first round of combat.

(The +20% to Spirit Combat was alright too.)

[Techpriest]

Having done a once over of the book I have to say the illumination stuff is extremely useful for what I'm working on, along with some associations with various cults in the book with other gods and goddess. If I had to say anything is disappointing, or that I have questions over, it's Teelo Norri.  Also this old chestnut from 2006 was something I did stumble on and think is an interesting supplement to the book as a whole. I don't know what it's status as 'canon' is, but Greg did write it.

I'd also have liked a bit more expansion on the Red Emperor's cult and it's relation to the Yelm cult (we do have the Golden Proxy mentioned) but I suppose that will need to wait for the Solar Cults book, which hopefully will drop before the end of the year. I am only truly disappointed by the fact that there's no more potato bread. Bring back the potato bread Jeff! We have room for a Lunar Goddess of Potatoes! It's the perfect crop for the Red Goddess!

[Joerg]

45 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

The cult of Sartar won’t give its members all the weird personal magic Sartar used as a wonder-working magician who eventually became a minor god.

The cult of Hon-eel doesn’t give its members all the weird personal magic Hon-eel used as a wonder-working heroine who eventually became a minor goddess.

This honestly shouldn’t come as a surprise to anybody, but apparently it does.

To be fair, we don't have that many cults based on people who apotheosized inside History/Time. There are Pavis and Dormal with weird sorcerous associations, Hrestol and Arkat for the Malkioni, there is dynastic founder Sartar, and there is that Lunar bunch. And other than Pavis's long form and the six years old pre-release on Dormal (in that Gen Con preprint of RQG Gods of Glorantha, or the short form in RQ3 Gods of Glorantha) no official write-ups existed outside this book.

 

For all those entities who were (or became) Gods before Time we find that their miraculous actions in myth manifest as their Rune Magic spells. A similar assumption for ascended entities shouldn't be surprising, either.

 

[metcalph]

On the subject of Queen Deezola's lack of ruling magics, there seems to be an assumption that she was a Queen Regnant. 

But there is another type of Queen - the head of an important earth temple who is the source of sovereignty and ownership for the lands but does not actually rule.  Even Sartar has a few of these Queens. 

Alternatively, Yanafal was a ruling Noble but nobody is complaining about  his lack of leadership magics or even sorcery as a Carmanian.  Except me.  So I will now indulge in gratuitous personal slurs... 

[Eff]

13 minutes ago, metcalph said:

On the subject of Queen Deezola's lack of ruling magics, there seems to be an assumption that she was a Queen Regnant. 

But there is another type of Queen - the head of an important earth temple who is the source of sovereignty and ownership for the lands but does not actually rule.  Even Sartar has a few of these Queens. 

Alternatively, Yanafal was a ruling Noble but nobody is complaining about  his lack of leadership magics or even sorcery as a Carmanian.  Except me.  So I will now indulge in gratuitous personal slurs... 

You could indeed choose to engage in that interpretation. That would be an interesting choice given the consistent use of "Queen Deezola" in previous texts, as if her status as a queen was somehow relevant to her involvement in the Seven Mothers' deeds. It would also be a choice that very deliberately decides to remove an instance of a woman having political authority from the setting, and so I would personally question the point of making that choice. But I suspect that simply saying that last sentence is another instance of "gratuitous personal slurs", as you put it.

[Jason Farrell]

It's become clear to me that it will be a personal necessity someday to sit down with all the RQ cults on one hand, and all the spells (official, plus ones I like culled from 3rd party sources) and make some changes and/or additions to a bunch of cults.   Yelmalio, Yinkin, Hon-Eel... the list goes on. 

And that's...okay.  What's there provides a solid framework, plus the underlying mythological and real-world justifications (even if Chaosium themselves don't always seem to follow them) for me to make my own adjustments.  It's pretty clear that a) it's impossible to have everyone agree on what spells exactly each deity should have, and b) no arguments are going to remove the braintrust from some highly entrenched positions. 

Now I just need to be less lazy and do it.  My big excuse right now is waiting for all of the cults books to be released, so I know what my starting point is.

[Mark Mohrfield]

18 hours ago, metcalph said:

JAKALEEL

New (although Tales did do a version)

General Vibe: Lunar Shamans.

Biggest surprise: She's still friends with Zorak Zoran.

I notice that ZZ provides her with Command Shade. But isn’t this redundant? Surely her own Command Cult Spirit covers this, as well the other elementals provided by the Young Elementals. Am I missing something?

Edited May 23 by Mark Mohrfield

[metcalph]

1 minute ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

NI notice that ZZ provides her with Command Shade. But isn’t this redudant? Surely her own Command Cult Spirit covers this, as well the other elementals provided by the Young Elementals. Am I missing something?

I suppose it might not be covered by Cyclic Lunar Magic so she won't be completely helpless if attacked by a Shade on the Black and Dying phases.

[Squaredeal Sten]

3 hours ago, theconfusingeel said:

As a side note, does anybody else like Jakaleel?
I don't think it would lack power seeing that it's a shaman cult, and I like the opportunities it gives with it being darkness aligned, things like being lunar but also part of the ZZ cult.

Yes.  Jakaleel may even be better (well more powerful)  for a player) than Ty Kora Tek.  I'm still thinking about that one.  TKT seems to me to call for making up powerful ancestors, and I'm not sure most players want to do / have the foresight to do that in the character generation phase.  Nor that most GMs would go along with power gaming your ancestors.  Jakaleel is a different path to shamanhood, so will take some thought to unpack.

[g33k]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

On the subject of Queen Deezola's lack of ruling magics, there seems to be an assumption that she was a Queen Regnant. 

But there is another type of Queen - the head of an important earth temple who is the source of sovereignty and ownership for the lands but does not actually rule.  Even Sartar has a few of these Queens. 

Unless sources speak to her specifically in that "Earth Queen" mode (I always see "earth magics," which is different), I would presume from unadorned "Queen" that the "Regnant" mode is meant.

Furthermore, I think the 7M needed someone "Regnant" in their rituals, as they were going for a Goddess with a rulership aspect.

 

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

... Alternatively, Yanafal was a ruling Noble but nobody is complaining about  his lack of leadership magics or even sorcery as a Carmanian.  Except me.  So I will now indulge in gratuitous personal slurs... 

Being among the nobility is different, though.
There are many nobles at any given time, all with their own limited areas.
There is only one throne, only one ruler.

I've never seen any reason for the Ram and Warrior to have any particular rulership magic (battle-leader, yes!  YT absolutely should have battle leadership magic!)

[Joerg]

6 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Yes.  Jakaleel may even be better (well more powerful)  for a player) than Ty Kora Tek.  I'm still thinking about that one.  TKT seems to me to call for making up powerful ancestors, and I'm not sure most players want to do / have the foresight to do that in the character generation phase.  Nor that most GMs would go along with power gaming your ancestors.  Jakaleel is a different path to shamanhood, so will take some thought to unpack.

Do we know whether associate magic from non-Lunar cults becomes cyclical for Lunar initiates?

I suppose magic from non-Lunar cults (in cases of double initiation, e.g. Boltor Hairybreeks) will remain unaffected by the cycles?

 

[Richard S.]

7 hours ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

I notice that ZZ provides her with Command Shade. But isn’t this redundant? Surely her own Command Cult Spirit covers this, as well the other elementals provided by the Young Elementals. Am I missing something?

Jakaleel by default can only control small darkness elementals. Zorak Zoran gives her the ability to control any size of shade.

[glarkhag]

12 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

The cult of Sartar won’t give its members all the weird personal magic Sartar used as a wonder-working magician who eventually became a minor god.

The cult of Hon-eel doesn’t give its members all the weird personal magic Hon-eel used as a wonder-working heroine who eventually became a minor goddess.

This honestly shouldn’t come as a surprise to anybody, but apparently it does.

...but presumably they could be discovered through heroquesting.  These are the most esoteric secrets of the cult and maybe not even known by any mortal (yet) and would require exploring off the well-trodden paths in the God Realm?

[metcalph]

7 hours ago, g33k said:

Unless sources speak to her specifically in that "Earth Queen" mode (I always see "earth magics," which is different), I would presume from unadorned "Queen" that the "Regnant" mode is meant.

In Glorantha and the RW, very few Queens actually rule in their own right.  Considering the land concerned is Rinliddi, a place which has been dominated by the Dara Happans for a thousand years and contested by the not so enlightened Horse Nomads during that time, I'm skeptical there was ever a tradition of female rulers there.  In addition, in the sundry writings of the Lunar Empire since then, it's always been the Satraps ruling on behalf of the Red Emperor and not a Queen Among The Seven.  

 

7 hours ago, g33k said:

Furthermore, I think the 7M needed someone "Regnant" in their rituals, as they were going for a Goddess with a rulership aspect.

No, they were going for someone to destroy the Carmanian Empire.  And it's debatable whether the Goddess herself was interested in ruling, considering how quickly she palmed off the job to somebody else.  After defeating the First Enemies just after she was born, she "named her new lands to be First Blessed while appointing her first satrap" LW p117

 

7 hours ago, g33k said:

Being among the nobility is different, though.
There are many nobles at any given time, all with their own limited areas.
There is only one throne, only one ruler.

The actual description of Yanafal Tarnils is "an exiled nobleman from Yuthuppa who still ruled his lands" LW p10, p27 and p137, which is something that's been extant since Cults of Prax. 

 

 

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, glarkhag said:

...but presumably they could be discovered through heroquesting.  These are the most esoteric secrets of the cult and maybe not even known by any mortal (yet) and would require exploring off the well-trodden paths in the God Realm?

Sure. Just as if you're deeply steeped in the inner lore of the Pavis cult you might end up heroquesting to command vast stone statues or bring Aldryami and Mostali together, but those aren't entry-level powers that everyone gets to emulate just for 1 Rune point.

I suppose I'm saying the niche a mortal heroquester who attains divinity ends up occupying is what they carve out for themselves in the God World; they can't share every tool they used to carve out that niche with their worshippers. Sartar, like Pavis, provides "City Harmony"; Hon-eel is a new Grain Goddess who brought us the Fifth Wane wonder-crop. That's awesome! But that's because they were awesomely successful mortal heroquesters, and are now (very) minor gods.

[glarkhag]

2 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Sure. Just as if you're deeply steeped in the inner lore of the Pavis cult you might end up heroquesting to command vast stone statues or bring Aldryami and Mostali together, but those aren't entry-level powers that everyone gets to emulate just for 1 Rune point.

I suppose I'm saying the niche a mortal heroquester who attains divinity ends up occupying is what they carve out for themselves in the God World; they can't share every tool they used to carve out that niche with their worshippers. Sartar, like Pavis, provides "City Harmony"; Hon-eel is a new Grain Goddess who brought us the Fifth Wane wonder-crop. That's awesome! But that's because they were awesomely successful mortal heroquesters, and are now (very) minor gods.

Yep, wasn't disputing or challenging what you said. Just teasing out the extrapolation for beginners...

[davecake]

21 hours ago, theconfusingeel said:

As a side note, does anybody else like Jakaleel?
I don't think it would lack power seeing that it's a shaman cult, and I like the opportunities it gives with it being darkness aligned, things like being lunar but also part of the ZZ cult.

I do like the Jakaleel cult. They make excellent villains or foils. The incredibly creepy potential of playing games with the dead - souls of the dead (summoning dead relatives, dead friends, etc) is great. And the association with Annilla, and Invisibility for all sorts of creepy stuff. 

[theconfusingeel]

Just now, davecake said:

I do like the Jakaleel cult. They make excellent villains or foils. The incredibly creepy potential of playing games with the dead - souls of the dead (summoning dead relatives, dead friends, etc) is great. And the association with Annilla, and Invisibility for all sorts of creepy stuff. 

do they?
I guess I'm more on the lunar side so I imagine palying as a jakaleel cultist more than fighting them.

[davecake]

4 minutes ago, theconfusingeel said:

do they?
I guess I'm more on the lunar side so I imagine palying as a jakaleel cultist more than fighting them.

Oh, they are even more fun as villains when you are playing Lunars. Of course the ones with Invisibility make great Dart Competition assets.