Human Blood & Iron

[Erol of Backford]

How can trolls eat humans if their blood has iron in it?

(James Polk April 94) Gloranthan Games For People who Insist that Human Blood Doesn't Contain
Iron and then Talk About Gloranthan Baseball:   🙂

[Richard S.]

Trolls eat people. Iron burns trolls. Human blood obviously doesn't hurt trolls, ergo it doesn't contain iron. Glorantha doesn't operate by our rules, even if many of its rules create effects that resemble our own.

[Squaredeal Sten]

It's not pure iron in the real world  just one atom in the hemoglobin molecule.  But the real world doesn't seem to apply in this case.

But Glorantha doesn't even have atoms, and the elements don't include metals.  The concept isn't part of the world.  Nor is physical chemistry.  

 

[Eff]

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

How can trolls eat humans if their blood has iron in it?

(James Polk April 94) Gloranthan Games For People who Insist that Human Blood Doesn't Contain
Iron and then Talk About Gloranthan Baseball:   🙂

Of course, in the real world the iron in human blood is tightly bound up. You can imagine that blood does indeed have little bits of death-iron in it, which must be surrounded and interwoven with the powers of water and life and movement and stasis and moon so that its power might sustain life but be held in check from running loose and killing.

Thus, fresh human blood should be fine for trolls, but let it age and it becomes a potent spice, and let it age further and it does become a danger to eat. And then you can imagine a sprinkling of iron dust over the battlefield, tiny and blown away by the wind if you're lucky. Heavy, sometimes, and weighing down the dead. 

[Ali the Helering]

We consume poisonous substances all the time - the FDA website has an extensive (though not exhaustive) list of foods, and many (some would contend all) recreational drugs, including my personal favourite, booze.  

Well nourished and healthy individuals have 4-5 grams of iron in their body.  The average lethal dose of alcohol poisoning is 5-8 grams, so not that radically different.  Devouring an entire human might be the equivalent of a really heavy night out, resulting in all the symptoms one might expect!

[Akhôrahil]

I don't think human blood has iron in it in Glorantha. It's not like atoms or molecules exist, in my estimation. In our world, blood carries oxygen by means of hemoglobin. In Glorantha, it presumably carries the life force or something (this is why you die when too much of it leaks out).

Edited October 8 by Akhôrahil

[mfbrandi]

In Glorantha, blood carries a life-giving component of Orlanth’s “Air” — or simply Orlanth — around the body, and if it cannot do this without a little death-metal in the blood, isn’t that entirely appropriate for the god for whom lethal violence is always an option?

It doesn’t matter whether we say “oxygen” or call iron an “element”.

One might almost write a myth about how Orlanth had to seize Iron–Death from a dying Sun (supernova) in order that His people might breathe. “Those Solars have it all wrong. I wasn’t sticking it in. I was gathering it up.” For our blood to function, stars must die.

[Malin]

I like the idea of human blood having iron in it since they became mortal. Just a little hint of death metal there now that wasn't there before.

As with everything, the dose is what determines if it's a spice, a drug, or a poison. Just a little kick won't be more harmful than chili I bet.

[Jeff]

The existence of iron in blood was discovered only in 1713. Some cultures believed that iron had healing properties, but that was not based on the presence of iron in the body. I think it is safe to say that in Glorantha, iron is not in blood. It is perfectly possible to imagine Glorantha without needing to use modern RQ anachronisms.

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

In Glorantha, blood carries a life-giving component of Orlanth’s “Air”

mmm you take a risk to "irl-ize" the gloranthan air.

Human needs air/orlanth to live, that's true and proven.

Human needs blood to live, that's true and proven.

However nothing says blood carries air, except irl influence

 

Why not blood carries a life-giving component of "Water" or "Earth" or "Darkness" or fire ? After all, at the end  of the day, blood is liquid, helps scaring, sometimes becomes very dark, and is hot when it leaves your body (no no, don't test it on your on body, please 😛 )

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

it presumably carries the life force or something (this is why you die when too much of it leaks out).

seems to me more cautious 🙂 

[svensson]

There are three answers to that question:

1. As @Jeff said, human blood does not contain iron in Glorantha

2. It's not enough to matter. Think of it like almonds. Every type of almond contains amygdalin, a chemical that can turn into cyanide in the body if you eat too many of them.

[note: Sweet almonds have very little amygdalin and are generally safe to eat. Bitter almonds have much more and should only be eaten in small amounts]

3. Ignore it [that's my favorite, btw].

[davecake]

Gloranthan chemistry isn't like terrestrial chemistry, but if it was, terrestrial chemistry doesn't work like that anyway. Sodium is dangerously because it blows up in water, chlorine is a poisonous gas, salt is necessary for life. 

And gloranthan Iron has verifiably different properties to terrestrial iron, so it's clearly not the same stuff. In the ways that matter, Jeff is right. 

But if bothers you, consider that maybe the small amount of iron in human blood (how the hell did it get there? did dwarves somehow put it there?) just makes humans taste deliciously spicy. 

[Erol of Backford]

14 hours ago, Eff said:

potent spice

 sorry I had to post this...

12 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

poisonous substances

bad liver (some iron in there) and onions

2 hours ago, svensson said:

Every type of almond contains amygdalin, a chemical that can turn into cyanide in the body if you eat too many of them.

Great now every time I have a cup of Costco chocolate covered almonds (often if not raisins) I'll think not only is the sugar in the chocolate bad for me but I am poisoning myself as well!

All that being said the responses to posts herein are like a box of chocolates...

Not enough iron and or no iron in the blood had me thinking, that guessing dwarven bolts would be tipped with iron when trolls or elves would be expected, would dwarves not have perfected form-set iron to cover a crossbow quarrel with just enough iron to make it painful-poisonous enough to cause double damage? Assuming so, how much iron would a quarrel take to get it to the point (no pun) of inflicting double damage to a troll or elf?

BTW, tuskers and half elves also take double damage IIRC?

Taking the thought of iron arrows or quarrels a bit further (iron in the blood) would dwarves not have invented the "iron core" bolt or arrow, similar to say a tungsten core AP shell or is that way too God Learner-ish for them?

I am sure they have iron buckshot or even bullets/mini-balls for their firearms?

(sorry a little off topic)

 

I couldn't find a tungsten core shell section but would the cannon cult have iron shells or buckshot of iron when facing trolls and elves?

When fighting trolls one would also venture to guess that elves would figure have figured a way to use iron tipped arrow heads.

How many encumbrance of iron would be needed to make an arrowhead.

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

 sorry I had to post this...

bad liver (some iron in there) and onions

Great now every time I have a cup of Costco chocolate covered almonds (often if not raisins) I'll think not only is the sugar in the chocolate bad for me but I am poisoning myself as well!

All that being said the responses to posts herein are like a box of chocolates...

Not enough iron and or no iron in the blood had me thinking, that guessing dwarven bolts would be tipped with iron when trolls or elves would be expected, would dwarves not have perfected form-set iron to cover a crossbow quarrel with just enough iron to make it painful-poisonous enough to cause double damage? Assuming so, how much iron would a quarrel take to get it to the point (no pun) of inflicting double damage to a troll or elf?

BTW, tuskers and half elves also take double damage IIRC?

Taking the thought of iron arrows or quarrels a bit further (iron in the blood) would dwarves not have invented the "iron core" bolt or arrow, similar to say a tungsten core AP shell or is that way too God Learner-ish for them?

I am sure they have iron buckshot or even bullets/mini-balls for their firearms?

(sorry a little off topic)

 

I couldn't find a tungsten core shell section but would the cannon cult have iron shells or buckshot of iron when facing trolls and elves?

When fighting trolls one would also venture to guess that elves would figure have figured a way to use iron tipped arrow heads.

How many encumbrance of iron would be needed to make an arrowhead.

To me it is always pointless to worry about something that nobody within the setting would worry about. Especially within the context that this is a roleplaying game. We know that trolls eat humans, dwarfs, and elves. We know that iron is poisonous to the trolls, so therefore there isn't enough iron in any of those species for trolls to get worried about or to have a game mechanic result.

[Erol of Backford]

 

43 minutes ago, Jeff said:

To me it is always pointless to worry about something that nobody within the setting would worry about.

I'd guess almost all Gloranthians worry about protecting themselves?

Armor and weapons, metal is a large trade commodity in Glorantha.

What trader wouldn't take advantage of say, the demand for silver at the periphery of a Telmori area where they have been raiding? Also who wishes to melee with a werewolf that they could possibly harm at a distance, especially when silver swords are expensive?

The same goes for those fighting trolls or elves? Wouldn't iron arrowheads or quarrels to place on arrows or bolts be a trade good in demand? 

Half the fun about Glorantha for me is going down rabbit holes associated with trivial items.

If discussions generate a few fun gaming ideas it's worth it for me.

The thought of "what if" is so much more fun than "must be canon".

Thinking its better to encourage more game fun, pointless, silly, trivial discussion items than the alternative, turning people off. That will steer players away from the game and Glorantha.

IMHO.

 

[MOB]

On 10/8/2024 at 12:52 PM, Erol of Backford said:

How can trolls eat humans if their blood has iron in it?

As @Malin says, as with everything, the dose is what determines if it's a spice, a drug, or a poison. Just a little kick won't be more harmful than chili I bet.

That's why Uz with more bravado than sense engage in "Iron Dwarf" eating contests, to prove how hard they are. A bit like those extreme chilli-eating contests humans here indulge in.

Edited October 9 by MOB

[Jeff]

13 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Half the fun about Glorantha for me is going down rabbit holes associated with trivial items.

If discussions generate a few fun gaming ideas it's worth it for me.

The thought of "what if" is so much more fun than "must be canon".

Thinking its better to encourage more game fun, pointless, silly, trivial discussion items than the alternative, turning people off. That will steer players away from the game and Glorantha.

IMHO.

 

I've got to admit that after 30+ years of the internet, going down rabbit holes associated with trivial items has far less charm for me (I remember Greg telling me he got tired of it 20 some years ago). It is also something that is raised by many many new or would-be players as something that turns them off from the community, so it is worth keeping that in mind.

[French Desperate WindChild]

16 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

What trader wouldn't take advantage of say, the demand for silver at the periphery of a Telmori area where they have been raiding? Also who wishes to melee with a werewolf that they could possibly harm at a distance, especially when silver swords are expensive?

why not ? some issues however, you must sell the weapon silver not just silver, because you can't be sure if there is smith able to use it.So you need a smith. As it is rare, you need mercenaries. As it is needed here, you need some agreement with local authority to sell it (and not be raided by those who need it, your 10 mercenaries will not resist against a full clan)

The issue with basing your defense on distance is a) you need silver / iron arrows quarrels or magic to touch them (with a fair % to lose the material after each fire) b) that's fine with a dumb telmori / best, but if you face ambush or even just the charge, yes you will hit one or two telmori, but for the rest they will have time to run and reach you (and even the wounded, they are not killed automatically)

 

16 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

The thought of "what if" is so much more fun than "must be canon".

depend on who. 😉 

 

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

going down rabbit holes associated with trivial items has far less charm for me

maybe something that we may have is a subforum dedicated to it; something I will not visit btw, but at least those who are happy with it will not disturb those who dislike it

[soltakss]

On 10/8/2024 at 2:52 AM, Erol of Backford said:

How can trolls eat humans if their blood has iron in it?

Alchemists might be able to extract iron from blood. However, trolls are not hurt by iron compounds, just by runic Iron.

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 10/8/2024 at 3:05 PM, Erol of Backford said:

 

......Not enough iron and or no iron in the blood had me thinking, that guessing dwarven bolts would be tipped with iron when trolls or elves would be expected, would dwarves not have perfected form-set iron to cover a crossbow quarrel with just enough iron to make it painful-poisonous enough to cause double damage? Assuming so, how much iron would a quarrel take to get it to the point (no pun) of inflicting double damage to a troll or elf?

BTW, tuskers and half elves also take double damage IIRC?

Taking the thought of iron arrows or quarrels a bit further (iron in the blood) would dwarves not have invented the "iron core" bolt or arrow, similar to say a tungsten core AP shell or is that way too God Learner-ish for them?

I am sure they have iron buckshot or even bullets/mini-balls for their firearms?

(sorry a little off topic)

...... 

I couldn't find a tungsten core shell section but would the cannon cult have iron shells or buckshot of iron when facing trolls and elves?

When fighting trolls one would also venture to guess that elves would figure have figured a way to use iron tipped arrow heads.

How many encumbrance of iron would be needed to make an arrowhead.

it seems likely and reasonable that players will think of iron arrowheads vs. Aldryami and Uz.  And that dwarfs might think of it.  Actually doing it seems much less likely for Gloranthans.

First ,  iron is tremendously expensive.  700 Lunars per Thing vs. 60L annual average  Standard of Living!  It is not defined how many arrowheads can be made from a Thing of metal, and blacksmiths are rare on Glorantha. but I would rule that they are not cheap.  Say 35L or 70L or more?  There is an old English phrase for it: "breaking windows with guineas."

And arrowheads get lost, as whole arrows do!  Miss and you may not find it.  Shoot a troll, penetrate armor with a low damage roll, your 1 or 2 points of damage becomes 2 or 4, and the hurt troll runs away with your arrowhead.  In pain from the iron, yes but so what?  The extracted arrow will be buried or thrown in the sea.

Under the raw RQ rules we don't have to count arrows.  But as a GM I would count iron arrowheads.  I might even count bronze arrowheads because IMG a lot of heads are flint or bone.  Praxians don't shoot bronze arrowheads.

I would expect an iron arrowhead to be an heirloom quality thing, and reserved for special desperate occasions.  Like the black arrow that kills the dragon in Lord of the Rings. 

? Make it an heirloom in character generation? Sure!

As for dwarfs making iron buckshot ,  buckshot may not be armor piercing: Balls are, but there is a reason the old English musket caliber was .75.  An 00 buck at .32 will have about 1/9th the kinetic energy. And buckshot are usually lead.  Iron is less dense than lead, so will carry even less kinetic energy. Watch it bounce off your plate, or simply not get through a linothorax.  

Elves using iron?  It burns them too!  It's mere presence might bother them.  I can't see it for elves any more than for trolls.

Dwarfs using iron cannon balls?  Seems to be another case of breaking windows with guineas.  Cannonball composition is  not defined in Gloranthan  canon but I would think stone cannonballs are likely  because  they were used in the RW in the early days of cannon.  

Edited October 11 by Squaredeal Sten
Typing

[Erol of Backford]

On 10/7/2024 at 8:52 PM, Erol of Backford said:

(James Polk April 94) Gloranthan Games For People who Insist that Human Blood Doesn't Contain
Iron and then Talk About Gloranthan Baseball:   🙂

Joreg, why did this make you sad. I thought the old posts were interesting. If it was something personal there was no intent to offend Sir!

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

why did this make you sad. I thought the old posts were interesting.

I can't speak for Joerg, but makes me sad because James was one of my best friends and unfortunately he passed away 8 years ago. Bittersweet memories of another time. 

[Erol of Backford]

I am sorry about the loss of a friend. Always would be.

Maybe go to Flashback Friday and share some good memories of Mr. Polk? I assume he'd like the good memories being shared?

I'm sure many on the blog would love to hear them? If the bitterness portion is too strong all will shurely understand.

Thank you both either way.

 

Edited Sunday at 03:53 AM by Erol of Backford

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Joreg, why did this make you sad. I thought the old posts were interesting. If it was something personal there was no intent to offend Sir!

This is a chemist's sadness about people confusing the metal with the chemical element in ionic or (in this case) complex form.

A metal is a (usually crystalline) solid or a liquid surrounded by a "plasma" of electrons forming a cloud. Quite a few elements that we know as metals also have non-metallic modifications, most prominently tin which (slowly) turns into its non-metallic form under cold temperatures.

Ochre is an iron-rich oxide/hydroxide that contains several orders of magnitude more iron than blood does, but it is a material that is perfectly acceptable as troll food, as is red sandstone, also an iron-rich mineral.

 

Assuming that blood has the properties of metallic iron soon leads to the assumption that you would be able to breathe water as it consists to 89% of oxygen. Good luck at your next dive. Bound oxygen also makes up most of the mass in carbon dioxide, something I prefer to exhale rather than inhale. Elemental oxygen comes as diatomic di-radical (the stuff that binds reversibly to the hemoglobin) and as triatomic ozone, another gas I prefer not to inhale in measurable quantities.

 

On 10/8/2024 at 3:52 AM, Erol of Backford said:

How can trolls eat humans if their blood has iron in it?

To me, this feels about the same as asking a fan of Star Trek why that Cylon R2D2 is the villain in Dr. Who.

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

This is a chemist's sadness about people confusing the metal with the chemical element in ionic or (in this case) complex form.

A metal is a (usually crystalline) solid or a liquid surrounded by a "plasma" of electrons forming a cloud. Quite a few elements that we know as metals also have non-metallic modifications, most prominently tin which (slowly) turns into its non-metallic form under cold temperatures.

Ochre is an iron-rich oxide/hydroxide that contains several orders of magnitude more iron than blood does, but it is a material that is perfectly acceptable as troll food, as is red sandstone, also an iron-rich mineral.

Yes, I agree 100%.

Alchemists might be able to transform blood to extract iron, but that is a magical process involving transformation. In Glorantha it magically produces iron, as blood is not iron.