Chaosium's Latest Statement on BRP

[seneschal]

What does it take to get stuff into Barnes and Noble*?  Not being an industry person, I don't know so I can't offer that.  I do know I have seen both boardgames and RPGs at many Barnes and Noble branches and have actually seen posts in other media about book stores like B&N being taken over by games and game nights. 

 

*I know that they're in decline but there are probably more of B&N than there are independent game stores.

I agree.  Both my local game shops and my local Barnes & Noble stores devote valuable shelf space to a good half-dozen Lovecraftian card and board games but Sandy "Mister Cthulhu Himself" Petersen's Cthulhu Wars is not among them.  I hear he's doing a Kickstarter campaign for a CW II.  Sorry, Sandy.  Get version 1 on real-life store shelves first.  Other folks' products are getting the spotlight that should by rights be yours.

If Barnes & Noble and Walmart are too big or too expensive to carry Chaosium product, what about Walgreen's or CVS Pharmacy?  Both chains have prominent book and toy sections.  Dollar General and Family Dollar?  Independent bookstores?  College campus bookstores? Flying J truck stops?  Remember, you're trying to get out of the comic book/game shop ghetto and bypass the Big Three distributors who won't give you a fair shake.  And you're trying to reach new customers who wouldn't necessarily know about or go to a game shop.

[seneschal]

Getting into  any national chain,  like B&N,  requires a distributor or buying agreement with the company at a corporate level. Distributors protect their markets,  demand a hefty discount and book stores at this level rarely,  if ever,  deal directly with a publisher. Most also work on a sale or return model,  meaning that a small publisher has stock tied up,  is only paid when it sells,  and may even find large volumes coming back if sales don't transpire. If a publisher wants a store to promote a title,  it costs  money. 

This is one of the main reasons why selling RPGs through the book store method is a road to ruin.  You need substantial resources to get the agreements in place,  will likely lose money,  and you have stock tied up that actually works against you. Sadly it simply isn't good business sense  to go down this route. 

Fine.  But I'm tired of hearing why this or that suggestion is impossible.  Remember Step 1 -- Change your attitude.  Instead of telling me what won't work, find and explore new tactics that will.  Because what Chaosium, et. al., is doing right now is not working.  People don't know that Chaosium/Moon Design/The Design Mechanism exist.  People don't know their products exist.  People can't examine product before buying and can't accidentally discover it on a store shelf somewhere.  Product is not available through channels that potential new players are likely to encounter or know about.  And product is put out too slowly to generate and maintain customer interest and enthusiasm.

Step 2 -- Hire a crazy, determined marketeer and salesman.  So again, if bookstores are out, toy stores?  Dollar stores?  Truck stops?  Independent grocery stores that have book or toy sections?  Don't tell me it can't be done.  Find someone who can figure out a way to make it happen.

Again, it does no good to devote blood, sweat and tears to create beautiful books and games that no one will ever know about or purchase.  You and your co-creators have worked too hard for your stuff to rot in obscurity.  Marketing is the second half of writing.  You must, you must, you must promote your work and you must make it available to potential customers.  If traditional methods of selling books and games aren't working, you have to adopt and discover non-traditional ones, whatever they may be.  Otherwise, all your hard work is wasted.

[lawrence.whitaker]

Sigh,

Seneschal, with all due respect, you might think that everything you suggest is easy, doable and guaranteed of success, but most, if not all, of your suggestions require massive investments of risk, time and cash that very, very few RPG companies have, can find or can afford. The retail markets do not work in the way you think they do or would like them to. It has nothing to do with attitude or complacency, and everything to do with the way the world works. If you think, for one second, that I'm going to invest time, energy, money and stock in putting copies of RuneQuest and supplements into every truck stop across North America, in the hope that there'll be a sudden, mad rush to buy them, then you're quite simply deluded. There's no denying that products must be marketed, and there's no denying that innovative ways need to be found, but just about everything you suggest is expensive (hugely) and high risk.

You are also labouring under the (mistaken) assumption that we (that is, Chaosium, Moon and Design Mechanism - and most other game companies) haven't already looked, very carefully, at the costs, logistics and practicalities of different modes and methods of marketing and distribution and come to some sensible conclusions, and are exploring other avenues. But please, until you have worked in this industry directly and have some experience of its economic and practical realities, refrain from lecturing on what should and shouldn't be done, and how we're clearly doing it wrong.

Conversely, I wholeheartedly agree that running games at local stores, promoting at conventions, and arranging demonstrations, is of enormous help - as are reviews, social media exposure and so on. This has more practical value than a ton of unsold, unsellable games languishing on the bottom shelf of The Dollar Store, close to the air filters in Fifth Wheel, or next to the cut-price hair dye in Walgreens.

[SDLeary]

 

Not sure why SDLeary is speculating on future directions for CoC it seemed to me that the Chaosium team had no qualms about the current 7e version other than the issues with getting the KS fulfilled. Although Mike Mason wasn't present the Chaosium were full of praise for the direction he's taking with fresh material , organised game play and similar things with CoC 7e. The Chaosium team at The Kraken were more focused on Glorantha as that is the main focus of the convention but had no difficulty in covering concerns about MW and CoC even if lot's of participants didn't appear that concerned.

Basically because it will be very hard for such a small team to support two different systems simultaneously much less three. IF BRP is being aligned around RQ6, then it would only make sense at some point in the future to "bring CoC back into the fold". Doing this sooner would make design logistics easier.

SDLeary

[Trifletraxor]

I didn't get that Chaosium will have a EU printer I believe it was more that POD printing will be done for EU product avoiding the international shipping issue (Lulu seemed to be the option with most positive feedback from customers).

Might have misunderstood what they said. Head of Kraken organizer Fabian did however tape the session, so we should be able to access a video or podcast of it pretty soon.

[SDLeary]

That does make sense.  I know B&N has not been able to get me certain books and I think it was for a similar reason. 

It is a shame that Chaosium did not look at this earlier in its history as I think Call of Cthulhu has enough name recognition from the HPL novella if not the RPG itself.  IIRC, I've seen Arkham Horror there.  (Runequest I think would be a harder sell as D&D version whatever has the larger name recognition.)  "If ifs and ands were pots and pans there'd be no tinkers in the lands."

Actually, I think they did. Years ago, around here (SF area), both B&N and Borders had Cthulhu on the shelves.

SDLeary

[seneschal]

Sorry you felt lectured, Loz.  If I wasn't rooting for you, I wouldn't have bothered to say anything.  Steps 1, 3 and 4, however, are relatively cheap and low risk, something anyone with a smile, a phone, a library card, a computer, and an internet connection could do -- and that was half of my suggestions.

[Aelwyn]

 

I don't know what the gaming scene is like in some parts of the US or world. But game stores are a dying breed in my neck of the woods.

That is true in my area as well. I'm in an area with a huge population, and we've only got three that hang on by selling comic books and conventional board games, and renting space to gamers. Game stores can't be the only solution, but they are a great place to find new players, and they are likely the only brick-and-mortar stores where Chaosium product will move. 

My marketing advice for Chaosium, FWIW, which isn't much: the website could be easier to navigate. I'd suggest organizing products by genre rather than by whether the item is a rulebook, supplement, monograph, e-book, or pdf. New customers don't really know or care about the difference between a supplement and a monograph--they want something on pirates or cyborgs.

And I get that the leadership team is trying to turn a lot of things around. Nothing is going to happen overnight.

[nclarke]

I think that it is important for everyone putting their twopenny-worth into the discussion is that Chaosium is five guys only four of which appear to be doing it as a full time thing and their full time includes writing the  material for the new Glorantha material as well as running the company and doing everything for marketing the product lines, product design, distribution etc etc.

If you want to promote Chaosium products then join the program that Mike Mason is starting out with which does a sort of D&D Encounters but for Chaosium. Getting games being run at Conventions and in game stores is what some of you appear to want so put your money where your mouth is and get with the program.

If I don't see each of the complainers posting that they are running a game and a con or game store with support from Chaosium and Mike then I'll know who I can switch off as a bag of wind.

[Trifletraxor]

I think Chaosium and other publishers of d100 games in the BRP family are lucky to have such a passionate bunch of players. It just means there's interest in their games. "Meh..." would be the worst possible reaction to the news.

[soltakss]

So you're suggesting an angry letter-writing campaign? OK, let's get on that...

Nah, the best thing to do is to wait to see what happens, then complain bitterly for 20 years.

[soltakss]

The method of calculating base Skill Stats based on combining Characteristic scores may be simplified a bit for newbies who want to save time not having to calculate much. 

SIMPLIFY? You add two numbers together! That hardly counts - pardon the pun - as complicated. Either to explain or actually do... 

 

It is one of the best things about the new RuneQuest! 

 

I am easily pleased ...

[lawrence.whitaker]

Here's the thing about steps 3 and 4...

3.  Compile a current national list of game shops, town by town, state by state.  Don't rely on old, outdated lists that you may have had to purchase.  Contact these folks directly, let them know that you and your product exist, ask them to stock your stuff.

Most retailers deal exclusively through distributors and cannot/will not deal direct with individual companies. We're fortunate that Design Mechanism also deals with Alliance and Warpath, the two biggest, as does Chaosium, but a direct approach is not guaranteed of shelf space or sales. I have two game stores within 30 minutes of where I live. One will carry my books without going through a distributor, but because the other deals with Alliance North, they won't deal with me directly. They are also highly selective over what products they will stock because RPGs overall only account for about 10% of their revenue. The rest is Warhammer, Magic, trading card and comic book sales.

4.  Solicit reviews in small sci-fi and gaming magazines as well as in online venues.  Small publishers and bloggers need copy.  They might as well be talking about you!

This is far easier said than done. Soliciting reviews means finding a suitable reviewer, and one that will genuinely take a book and review it, rather than take a book and chalk it up as another fine freebie. The latter is far more common than the former. We do actively pursue reviews and have been reviewed on Black Gate, RPGnet, Penguin, and in a Dutch New Media magazine; but really, we also need fans and people on the BRP Central community to review too - and not here, but RPGnet, RPGsite, Drivethru, ENworld and RPG Geek. Honestly, relying on 'professional' reviewers is hit and miss.

So BRP Central regulars need to see themselves as part of the marketing effort. Run games. Go to cons. Review and post (especially Drivethru, which accounts for 50% of our sales). Don't wait for someone else. Don't wait for official. Don't moan there's no exposure. We publishers work very hard to market our work, but it isn't easy, isn't cheap and is a continual process.

Instead of constant speculation as to whether the BRP Essentials will be RQ6 based (it is, and I'm saying no more about it at this stage), or moaning about what you think it SHOULD be, get out there and write some reviews of BRP, RQ, MW and Cthulhu supplements and channel your energies into something positive...

[seneschal]

But by approaching the game shops within 30 minutes of your house you just increased your local exposure by 50 percent, even though the second shop said no.

Now, during our scattered conversation I've been encouraging you and brainstorming marketing possibilities.  Meanwhile, you've been systematically shooting them down, saying how impossible each idea is and basically telling me to shut up because I'm an ignorant so and so.  Which of us is being positive and which of us is being negative?

Edited October 7, 2015 by seneschal

[Simlasa]

As Loz said, the only way I see to make it simpler would be to switch to rock-scissor-paper.

I do not know what Vile intended to suggest, but I would recommend not doing anything angry or ill-mannered. Express your preferences, politely.

Again I forget my sense of humor does not come across on the internet...

No... I wasn't serious at all. I have no desire to sling poo at the people who have written such nice games for us.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Simlasa

[threedeesix]

Here's the thing about steps 3 and 4...

Most retailers deal exclusively through distributors and cannot/will not deal direct with individual companies. We're fortunate that Design Mechanism also deals with Alliance and Warpath, the two biggest, as does Chaosium, but a direct approach is not guaranteed of shelf space or sales.

I both managed the gaming department of a local hobby store and was the co-owner of another for a number of years and I can say from experience that just getting your product carried by Alliance Games is a major step in the right direction. While I have never heard of Warpath (its been over twenty years), that's great as well. I know that Alliance is the largest distributor of games in the US, or at least it was, and any hobby store that was worth a damn had an account with them.

Plus the turn around was great. I would get a delivery every Friday, and as long as a customer got their order in to me by Wednesday, they would have it that week.

Rod

[lawrence.whitaker]

But by approaching the game shops within 30 minutes of your house you just increased your local exposure by 50 percent, even though the second shop said no.

No,  I improved our exposure by going there every other Sunday and running games. Getting the game on the shelf is only part of the battle. 

Edited October 7, 2015 by lawrence.whitaker

[Mankcam]

Well I love BGB and MRQ D100 SRD builds of BRP, but these days, if I have to choose, I choose the later.

I think the add two Characteristics together idea for actions is great. GMs can pretty much ask PCs to attempt any action by this method, applying difficulty degrees if necessary. Players just check their skill list to see if they have any skill of relevance based on that which will increase their chances. As far as NPCs are concerned, I just have their stat blocks listed as Characteristics, followed by two to four defining skills, and I can pretty much cover any situation with that.

I think a trimmed down version would of the RQ6 mechanics will be great, but I'm not keen on it being 32 pages. About half the size of RQ Essentials (about 100 pages) would be my preference. I can see it working without Magic and Gifts, and perhaps a smaller list of Special Effects. Keep the professions, but make them a tad more generic so they can be used across a wide range of genres.

It could look a bit like OpenQuest or Renaissance actually

In any case I think it has been a good move to go with a more recent build of BRP, and I only wish that they could look at Call of Cthulhu to be consistent, despite the further delays in getting it out there.

It is a shame for the BGB/MW fans however, and it's easy to understand the feeling of rejection one has when these things occur. I would encourage everyone to keep bringing out fan material for MW - the stats port over with minimal ease if playing another build of BRP in any case, and everything can be salvaged by GMs who tinker as much as BRP GMs tend to do.

But that goes for fans of the RQ as well, and putting out fan stuff for RQ6 etc / new BRP Essientials should be encouraged. I think Loz's comments are quite positive in that fact that if a fan base is enthusiastic then obiviously a company can thrive better in return, and our hobby stays alive.

 

 

Edited October 7, 2015 by Mankcam

[Simlasa]

Conversely, I wholeheartedly agree that running games at local stores, promoting at conventions, and arranging demonstrations, is of enormous help - as are reviews, social media exposure and so on. This has more

practical

value than a ton of unsold, unsellable games languishing on the bottom shelf of The Dollar Store, close to the air filters in Fifth Wheel, or next to the cut-price hair dye in Walgreens.

This is a HUGE aspect of modern marketing that us fans can actually help with.

One of the first things I do when I hear about a game is look for a review and see if anyone is doing a show and tell on Youtube. There is a shitstorm of people online posting reviews and 'unboxings' and actual play reports of D&D and Pathfinder... but very few for BRP or Runequest. The only reason I perceive Fate and Savage Worlds as popular is how many people I see talking about them online... it's not like I'm seeing either of those advertised in newspapers or for sale at the checkout counter of our local Flying J (mmm... bacon waffles).

Most of the new games I've discovered over the past decade have first come to my notice on blogs and forums... not advertising or bookshelves.

We really should get out there and talk up our games a whole lot more... be the squeaky wheels.

[SDLeary]

 

I think that it is important for everyone putting their twopenny-worth into the discussion is that Chaosium is five guys only four of which appear to be doing it as a full time thing and their full time includes writing the  material for the new Glorantha material as well as running the company and doing everything for marketing the product lines, product design, distribution etc etc.

If you want to promote Chaosium products then join the program that Mike Mason is starting out with which does a sort of D&D Encounters but for Chaosium. Getting games being run at Conventions and in game stores is what some of you appear to want so put your money where your mouth is and get with the program.

If I don't see each of the complainers posting that they are running a game and a con or game store with support from Chaosium and Mike then I'll know who I can switch off as a bag of wind.

Yup... only 5 or six people. Each with other things to occupy their time (Glorantha). Which makes it even more perplexing that they would try to create a NEW BRP, when the OLD BRP is serviceable and less expensive to manage while Chaosium is in the state that its in right now. If they had stated that it was their long term intent to switch over, it would be more understandable, but this seems to be something they want to accomplish relatively quickly; again while also managing CoC, and RQ, Glorantha, and day jobs if they have them.

Complainers... so anyone who expresses a concern about the new direction a company they have supported for over 30 years is a complainer? Really?

This is a public forum. We are here to discuss the games we like, in this case BRP based and inspired games, and the companies that produce them. I may not agree with the opinions of everyone here, or they with mine, but I don't see them as complainers. I see them as people who care about these games and companies expressing their opinions. 

SDLeary

PS: Oh and by the way, some of us have jobs that require we work weekends, so some of us can't support the convention circuit quite as much as we would like. 

[SDLeary]

But by approaching the game shops within 30 minutes of your house you just increased your local exposure by 50 percent, even though the second shop said no.

Now, during our scattered conversation I've been encouraging you and brainstorming marketing possibilities.  Meanwhile, you've been systematically shooting them down, saying how impossible each idea is and basically telling me to shut up because I'm an ignorant so and so.  Which of us is being positive and which of us is being negative?

In this particular instance though, with regards to brick and mortar game and bookstores, Loz is right. This is not a new phenomena. It has been this way in the game industry almost as far back as I remember it. In addition, the minimums that Alliance and others insist on often make it prohibitive for a small shop to experiment with new lines unless they have people coming in pre-ordering.

The only real targets are small independent booksellers. The issue with them, is that they often have similar cash flow issues as small game companies.

Its not really an issue of being negative, but at some point a business a business has to be realistic. If things haven't changed then treading the same path again only eats up resources better focused in another direction. Monitor things, such that if they change you can take advantage, but focus on what keeps the companies and their lines going.

SDLeary 

[Simlasa]

 

What about online gaming? There's loads of that going on any day of the week... and I have seen folks comment on how hard it is to find a RQ6 game or anything BRP-related besides CoC. 

I'm in an ongoing RQ6 campaign online and taking part in a BRP one-shot this weekend... all through Roll20... so that seems like a valid avenue to run games and build the game's reputation.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Simlasa

[Aelwyn]

If I don't see each of the complainers posting that they are running a game and a con or game store with support from Chaosium and Mike then I'll know who I can switch off as a bag of wind.

Not sure if you were referring to me, but I tried running a BRP game a few years ago with no support from Chaosium (nor would I expect any). All of the participants were new to BRP. It didn't go well. Also trying to introduce my current girlfriend to RPGs. That is also not going well. I blame my own inexperience as a GM for both. Since I'm equally inexperienced at retail and running gaming conventions, I think I'm going to wait a bit before diving headfirst into either of those. I haven't given up on running games, and I don't expect any support from anyone. I've already mentioned other things I've done to support Chaosium and Design Mechanism in this thread, in addition to buying their products. If that's not enough for you, feel free to switch me off as a bag of wind.

I don't expect Chaosium to take any of my suggestions, and I certainly don't expect them to make business decisions based on my own personal preferences. But everyone on this site has the right to express those preferences... that's what this site is for.

Loz, I'd be glad to post some online reviews. That was an excellent suggestion.

[lawrence.whitaker]

PS: Oh and by the way, some of us have jobs that require we work weekends, so some of us can't support the convention circuit quite as much as we would like. 

So do many writers and game designers. I work full time, sometimes have to work weekends, have a family, and I both write material and run Design Mechanism.

It doesn't need to be a convention. Run games, as I do, at your local game store (if you have one; many don't). Doesn't have to be weekends - weekday evenings are often the best time to do it. If that's impractical, write a short review of a d100 supplement that's impressed you. Post a review on Drivethru. But be proactive.

The point is, this is, and has to be, a community effort.

Loz, I'd be glad to post some online reviews. That was an excellent suggestion.

Thanks Aelwyn - I look forward to reading them.

 

[lawrence.whitaker]

The only real targets are small independent booksellers. The issue with them, is that they often have similar cash flow issues as small game companies.

Very true. My local gaming store is 'Dan's Books and Games' in Cobourg, Ontario (I post resumes of my games there on FB and G+ - I'll start posting them here, too) and his main business is, in this order...

1. Second hand books

2. Magic & Yu-gi-oh cards

3. Boardgames

5. Collectable games, like X-Wing

6. RPGs, a few figures and dice.

Dan works hard, and he manages to maintain a small staff, pay himself a living wage and keep the bills paid. He does this by having frequent game nights, game weekends, and a free to use games library where you can pick a game off the shelf, get a coffee, sit at a table and just play. I run a fortnightly game that attracts about 9 people, none of whom had ever heard of RQ before, and 3 of whom had never role-played before. I've sold 4 copies of RQ through Dan's place, but that's really immaterial; every other week, 9 people turn up to game, have a great time, and, I know, tell others - to the point where we're looking to establish a separate RQ campaign. Having RQ on Dan's limited shelf space is fine, but it's the gaming that helps the most.

Edited October 7, 2015 by lawrence.whitaker