Truestone

[styopa]

Question came up this session: we all know what happens when truestone is touched by a character with rune points (ie divine magic), but...

Does it do anything to a person's spirit magic?  What about a shaman with no divine magic?  What about a sorcerer?  Or a dragon?

Maybe it says it buried in the Guide or Elder Secrets, but I don't recall any specifics for these contexts.

[hkokko]

After 18 hour flight back home I cannot recall any more the answer to the rune points part. It has been a long time we have seen one...

[Zozotroll]

Pretty sure it just absorbed any rune magic you had, it did nothing to anything else.

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, hkokko said:

After 18 hour flight back home I cannot recall any more the answer to the rune points part. It has been a long time we have seen one...

Back in the "Rune Power" days, where more-or-less the current Rune Points were a set of house rules, there were opinions on what happened, but it's never been officially ruled. Do Initiates lose their Rune Points permanently? What spells end up in the stone, does it keep the full flexibility that the initiate(s) had or do the spells somehow get fixed with point limits?

It used to be really simple - if I know Shield 2, Heal Wound 2, and Lightning 1, that's what goes in. But if I have 5 Rune Points and I know 10 spells (including all the Common Divine spells), what does that mean? If an Orlanthi and a Chalana Arroy have 4 and 6 RP each, does it get two separate Rune Point pools that can be called upon, each limited to the spells that the two adventurers had access to?

As to spirit, draconic, sorcery etc., it does nothing.

What does it do in HeroQuest or 13G?

[soltakss]

There is an example somewhere, buried in one of the old supplements, where a Truestone had some Spirit Magic. However, I think that might be a case of someone not being familiar with the powers of Truestone.

It makes sense for Rune Pools and Divine Magic to be transferred to a blank Truestone.

Filled Truestone just allows you to use the magic.

As for other kinds of magic, we had a discussion about Draconic Magic a while ago and it was inconclusive. 

Maybe the GM Book will contain a fuller description of Truestone, with explanations of how other magic is stored/not stored.

[David Scott]

Now that runes have been integrated into RQ, Truestone as a piece of pure Law rune presents the opportunity for a new exploration of what it is (and it’s refined form of Adamant). Why would a pure piece of Law rune store rune spells?

[jajagappa]

28 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Why would a pure piece of Law rune store rune spells?

Because Law abhors entropy and emptiness.  Law wants to be filled and ordered and consistent - the same law eternally enacted.  Therefore when an empty Truestone is touched it absorbs what touches it to form its matrix.  It's three points might be established by the 3 highest runes of the person touching it, and then it absorbs all Rune Points to fill it - taking known special rune magic first, then if there are still rune points, some set of common rune magic.

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Because Law abhors entropy and emptiness.  Law wants to be filled and ordered and consistent - the same law eternally enacted.  Therefore when an empty Truestone is touched it absorbs what touches it to form its matrix.

Im not sure that's how Law works in Glorantha. RQG says 

Quote

Law: This Rune describes the immutable laws of the universe and is typically associated with sorcery.

Truestone is part of the structure of the universe - a piece of the shattered spike. If a Lhankor Mhy member studied it magically, what would they see. Is it like a fractal that reveals the structure of the universe repeated within? I would suggest that Truestone is the ultimate sorcerers research tool.Within it contains all the rules and therefore all sorcery. You need to understand it, it doesn't give you the magic. Side effects of this could be an understanding of other magic systems - like the God Learners using sorcery to mimic rune and spirit magic.

As an aside, the Block is a giant piece of Truestone, there's never been any references to it having this magical effect.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Truestone is part of the structure of the universe - a piece of the shattered spike.

Yes, so you should then see pieces of that structure, i.e. Runes. But perhaps not in perfect alignment.

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Within it contains all the rules and therefore all sorcery. You need to understand it, it doesn't give you the magic.

I could see that. Perhaps by attuning/aligning it with the Runes you know, it allows you to manipulate the intensity better.

[Noita]

There's a fewTruestone threads somewhere dealing with heroquest. Will go and find them.

https://www.glorantha.com/forums/topic/truestone/

So am i getting this right, with RQG truestone is now something totally different to what it was before?

Edited March 24, 2019 by Iskallor

[CBDunkerson]

5 hours ago, Iskallor said:

So am i getting this right, with RQG truestone is now something totally different to what it was before?

So far there have only been a few passing references to Truestone in RQG. Mostly in connection with The Block. We know it is very rare, very strong, and can be used to make something called adamant about which we know even less.

Presumably details will be in the gamemaster guide, but no reason to assume it will be markedly different from previous versions.

[David Scott]

15 hours ago, Iskallor said:

So am i getting this right, with RQG truestone is now something totally different to what it was before?

No, I’m just suggesting that as we now have runes in characters and magic that it might need to be re-evaluated as it currently (RQ2 & RQ3) doesn’t really add up.

[Sumath]

12 hours ago, CBDunkerson said:

something called adamant about which we know even less

Well, we know he had hits with singles such as 'Stand and Deliver' and 'Prince Charming'. Right, pop-pickers?

[Joerg]

Our main source for how Truestone works in relation to rune magic from a Gloranthan perspective still is the Biturian Varosh narrative, despite the ludicrous exchange rates given in the trades.

Biturian offers a piece of Truestone with a good deal of his pathfinder magics to avoid a quest into broo-infested Sog's Ruins at Horngate. It isn't quite clear whether he was able to regain those spells at his next temple visit, but the story almost makes it sound that way. If Biturian was able to regain use of those spells without new permanent POW sacrifice that would suggest that he only placed rune point uses in the stone, rather than the entire spell knowledge. Basically, an empty spell trading (but then that may have been what he did, rather than place the spells directly in the stone?) without any return magic.

@Sumath I guess to still enjoy those singles, being truly stoned might help. (And it makes me feel rather old having been in the age bracket to have listened to those ditties...)

[PhilHibbs]

49 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Biturian offers a piece of Truestone with a good deal of his pathfinder magics to avoid a quest into broo-infested Sog's Ruins at Horngate. It isn't quite clear whether he was able to regain those spells at his next temple visit, but the story almost makes it sound that way. If Biturian was able to regain use of those spells without new permanent POW sacrifice that would suggest that he only placed rune point uses in the stone, rather than the entire spell knowledge. Basically, an empty spell trading (but then that may have been what he did, rather than place the spells directly in the stone?) without any return magic.

He was a priest, they always could get their spells back after Truestone had sucked them up. Unless they were one-use to priests, in which case they were gone into the stone.

The problem is, if the spells in the stone are fixed, what spells go in? If I have 5 RP and I know 10 spells, which ones go in and at what point levels? Or does it become a clone of my RP pool with all the flexibility that I had?

My suggestion is that the RP that I have left go into the stone as copies of the last spells that I cast. So if I have 5 RP, and my last spell was Shield 2, before that Heal Wound 1, and then Lightning 2, then that's what would go in. If it doesn't end up with a round 5 points... well, replicate spells until it does, going back further if necessary. There's bound to be a 1 point spell somewhere in that I've cast at some point in the past. And if you can't remember, the GM makes it up. So in that example but if I only have 4 RP left, then Shield 2 and two Heal Wound 1s go in.

Edited March 25, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[styopa]

1 hour ago, Sumath said:

Well, we know he had hits with singles such as 'Stand and Deliver' and 'Prince Charming'. Right, pop-pickers?

Except adamants magic apparently then fades very, very rapidly with time?

 

in re Truestone, the GtG has little to say, with a few references to it in massively durable magical constructs (the Juggernaught, the Capstan of Curustus, as well as a commentary that often people call anything they don't know 'truestone'.

It is mentioned as an actual Trade Good, so while rare and valuable, it's not priceless.  Adamant is referred to just as infrequently, mainly mentioning things made of it (doors, pillars, spikes) and tools which can cut astonishingly hard things.  IIRC general conversation over the years is that Truestone is refined into adamant, but only Dwarves know how and (I'd expect) it's a) not easy and b.) a pretty tightly controlled secret even within their society.

So based on that I might submit the following assertions:

Truestone is raw ore.  It is the stuff of raw Law, the raw material from the Spike which was shatterred across Glorantha.  As such, it is as dangerous to touch as Raw Chaos (think acids and bases - they're opposites chemically/atomically, but both really nasty ...Life only exists in BETWEEN them).  Law is not Stasis, but is conceptually connected to it.  Touching either primal chaos (which is a goop) or a chunk of Law (Truestone) would immediately do 1d3 per round to unprotected flesh.  

Chaos is trying to turn everything it touches into chaos goop: it turns solids to liquids, and liquids to goop at this 1d3 HP/AP per round rate per ENC of Chaos.  Basically, nothing can 'hold' it permanently, although things can hold it as long as their structure holds out.  Magically, it's nearly as dangerous, each round's direct contact causing a random spell known by the caster to discharge: Roll 1d12 for the SR the effect 'pops' in that round (there's no way to stop it by breaking contact that round...it's going to happen, this is just WHEN).  That number is also indicating the largest spell value that can be triggered: for Divine it's half the roll, for Spirit magic spells it's the roll, and for Sorcery it can be any spell but that's the MP going into it (distribute points randomly across duration, intensity, range).  Select randomly across available spells that fit that limit.  (Remember that spirit/divine spells are known sequentially, so someone who knows Heal 3 *also* knows Heal 2 and Heal 1...that would be 3 possible spells).  Target is 1d3: (1 on the caster, 2 on the chaos substance, 3 on a random bystander within range).  An attack spell hits that target; a buff spell buffs that target (so it might not always be bad).  Unfortunately, the consequence is always negative: the memory of that spell is burned away unless later learned again.  The rune points used for the spell (for divine) are lost permanently.  The MP used (for spirit magic and sorcery) are burnt away and will not come back unless restored with a later POW gain roll (ie the character will always have X less MP than their POW until that happens).   Yes, this is nasty for sorcerers as their art is intrinsically about manipulating magical laws and thus they are particularly vulnerable to the touch of chaos.  Finally, the touch of chaos will likely (20*ENC vs target's POW) impart chaos feature(s): 1 for a success, 1d3-1 for special, 1d6-2 for a crit..yes, a crit might actually take AWAY a chaos feature.   It's REALLY unpredictable!)

Truestone (Law) tries to order everything it touches, turning air into liquid (thus it always feels cold near it) and liquid to crystal.  So in fact Truestone is much more easily handled, once this layer of ice around it has transformed to crystal enclosing the Truestone itself.  Accessing the truestone power requires scratching off this layer physcially exposing the truestone.  Truestone integrated into a piece of armor or structure will reinforce it by constantly trying to order/stabilize it, repairing 1d3 AP/HP per round per ENC of Truestone.  Truestone will absorb spell abilities (select as per Chaos, above), holding them as one-use castable within the Truestone by anyone who holds & can compel it.  Spells can be absorbed through the protective layer crystal from anyone touching it, but compelling the casting FROM the Truestone requires skin contact.    This casting does NOT use the wielder's RP/MP, and is not otherwise manipulateable.  Merely having Truestone in one's possession will grant the bearer +20% cast chance (& effects, if possible) of any spell with the Stasis or Law rune, and -20% to any Movement or Chaos spells.

Chaos and Law coming into direct contact are annihilatory; I'd suggest d100 damage at the point of contact PER TOTAL ENC of the two combined, halved for every meter of distance from that point.  Yes, it's enough to...blow up a mountain.  This ignores the 'protective layer' around Truestone.

Adamant, the metal refined from Truestone (I'd assume this would take some sort of concentrated magical heat beyond even the heat of magma; it refines at a rate of 2ENC Truestone : 1ENC of Adamant) becomes an exceptionally hard, silvery metal.  It has 5x the AP of bronze, and does direct, full damage to AP/HP of any parrying weapon or physical structure being attacked.  It does double damage against constructs and essentially magical /summoned creatures (elementals, demons, etc) and any target with a chaos taint (who all find themselves uncomfortable in its exposed presence).  It is unharmed by, and does triple damage to Gorp.  It loses all inadvertent magic-absorbing properties BUT anyone touching an adamant construct MAY (voluntarily) cast spells into it which are then 'held' and castable by anyone else later touching that article.  The maximum amount of "spell" it can hold is ENC in MP, or 1/2 ENC in RP or a mixture of the two.  The later 'caster' would cast the magic at the original input caster's ability/POW/etc.

[Bill the barbarian]

4 hours ago, Sumath said:

Well, we know he had hits with singles such as 'Stand and Deliver' and 'Prince Charming'. Right, pop-pickers? 

 

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

I guess to still enjoy those singles, being truly stoned might help. (And it makes me feel rather old having been in the age bracket to have listened to those ditties...)

I preferred Goody two shoes as did Andrea.

Don't Smoke, Don't Drink, what do you do
Subtle innuendo follows...

Andrea my girlfriend in the day did not smoke, or drink but damn...

SHE PLAYED AD&D

I was smitten!

[Austin]

14 hours ago, styopa said:

It is mentioned as an actual Trade Good, so while rare and valuable, it's not priceless.

In an RQG Glorantha using your rule suggestions, how would you ballpark price Truestone or Adamant? Although this is obviously not the sort of thing you can just run on down to the marketplace and hand over coins for... For reference, 1ENC of unenchanted iron is 700L, and enough metal to make a broadsword. 1ENC of gold is 600L.

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, Crel said:

In an RQG Glorantha using your rule suggestions, how would you ballpark price Truestone or Adamant? Although this is obviously not the sort of thing you can just run on down to the marketplace and hand over coins for... For reference, 1ENC of unenchanted iron is 700L, and enough metal to make a broadsword. 1ENC of gold is 600L.

The value of Truestone in the world of Glorantha should not depend on the game system being used.

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

The value of Truestone in the world of Glorantha should not depend on the game system being used.

Everything in the world of Glorantha depends on the game system being used. RQ2, RQIII and RQG have completely different values for money, and thus completely different prices for everything. This will include Truestone. I have not (and will not) check in HQ, but I presume we have at least 2 other values, and 2 other price lists.

[Noita]

11 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Everything in the world of Glorantha depends on the game system being used. RQ2, RQIII and RQG have completely different values for money, and thus completely different prices for everything. This will include Truestone. I have not (and will not) check in HQ, but I presume we have at least 2 other values, and 2 other price lists.

HQ and RQ price lists seem to make more sense and be in sync these days. The best price list I have seen was in the last Pavis and the Big Rubble book. No more war horses that cost more than my pc has saved in twenty years of killing things and taking their stuff...

[Kloster]

12 minutes ago, Iskallor said:

The best price list I have seen was in the last Pavis and the Big Rubble book.

Are you speaking of the Gloranthan Classic one? The prices are the ones from RQ2, and the conversion rules for RQ2 to RQG show clearly that the value of cash is not the same. I have not checked the price list themselves, but I think the have been updated accordingly.

15 minutes ago, Iskallor said:

No more war horses that cost more than my pc has saved in twenty years of killing things and taking their stuff...

Yes, this is a good point.

[PhilHibbs]

44 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Everything in the world of Glorantha depends on the game system being used. RQ2, RQIII and RQG have completely different values for money, and thus completely different prices for everything. This will include Truestone. I have not (and will not) check in HQ, but I presume we have at least 2 other values, and 2 other price lists.

RQ3 was not Gloranthan, so certain compromises were made when trying to unify the Fantasy Europe Pennies currency of RQ3 with the W/L/C currency of Glorantha. That's fine, that's a compromise in order to merge two incompatible price lists into one usable game. As far as I can tell, RQG and RQ2 use the same price list (I haven't checked everything so I might be wrong).

My point is that the value of a material in the world should not depend on the game mechanics for the magical properties of that material. It might vary because wealth and the value of money has been re-interpreted by different writers.

[Kloster]

53 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

RQ3 was not Gloranthan, so certain compromises were made when trying to unify the Fantasy Europe Pennies currency of RQ3 with the W/L/C currency of Glorantha. That's fine, that's a compromise in order to merge two incompatible price lists into one usable game. As far as I can tell, RQG and RQ2 use the same price list (I haven't checked everything so I might be wrong).

My point is that the value of a material in the world should not depend on the game mechanics for the magical properties of that material. It might vary because wealth and the value of money has been re-interpreted by different writers.

On those points, we agree, and I am in the same position as you, not having checked in RQ2 (because my book is 200 km away).

[Pentallion]

On 3/25/2019 at 2:41 AM, David Scott said:

No, I’m just suggesting that as we now have runes in characters and magic that it might need to be re-evaluated as it currently (RQ2 & RQ3) doesn’t really add up.

It makes sense to me.  The Runes are the laws of magic so of course can be contained in Truestone.  The true fabric of Glorantha.