Causality in the God Time

[Valnar]

In the god time there was no time and a myriad of sources say that all the events of the god time are all happening at once. So can one get creative with apparent paradoxes?

Take for example the myth of Orlanth wooing Ernalda. I imagine that the versions told by Orlanthi and Ernalda priests and would be as different as the versions recounted by Danny Zuco and Sandy Olsson of a summer of love ( a walla walla).

What I'm interested in though is creating an Uleerian version of that myth in which Uleeria is instigator and helps to keep the burgeoning romance alive in the face of interference of an as yet undecided god (possibly Eurmal, because lols). The paradox being I'm thinking of using the children of Orlanth and Ernalda as Uleeria's tools in helping Orlanth accomplish the necessary tasks thereby ensuring their birth. Sticking to the principle of if you want to make something feel more Gloranthan make it more fantastical.

 

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

That seems entirely like what you'd see in Glorantha.

In the Descent from the Great Mountain story in Heortling Mythology, Orlanth's and Ernalda's households leave the Spike, but they are not yet mentioned as having been married, and yet we get mentions of their children, Barntar, Voriof and Vingkot, among others. You can probably work out a chronology for this sort of thing, but I think that's missing the greater point of God Time mystery.

[Akhôrahil]

This is also known from Greek myth - there are some myths that can't possibly fit in the same chronology.

[Joerg]

 

57 minutes ago, Valnar said:

In the god time there was no time and a myriad of sources say that all the events of the god time are all happening at once. So can one get creative with apparent paradoxes?

In my opinion, yes. There are numerous variations of (someone like) Orlanth marrying (someone like) Ernalda, like e.g. the marriage of Durev and Orane during the Downland Migration. It usually has the dashing (but maritally unexperienced) heroic guy rescuing the experienced wife from some danger or fix. King Heort unfreezes Ivarne out of the ice, for instance.

 

57 minutes ago, Valnar said:

Take for example the myth of Orlanth wooing Ernalda. I imagine that the versions told by Orlanthi and Ernalda priests and would be as different as the versions recounted by Danny Zuco and Sandy Olsson of a summer of love ( a walla walla).

While having to admit that I have no idea about either of those two movies, there may be alternate versions of Orlanth's Three (plus one) challenges of the Emperor who held Ernalda as a servant/slave/concubine (pick your choice). The official story has the plot of land given to a very inexperienced Orlanth who is also being ridiculed by his elder brothers.

But then, there are the tales of Tat and Tol, aka Orlanth and Yinkin, and their youthful amorous adventures (which are likely one origin story for the cat and hawk clouds), which puts a bit of a question mark to Orlanth being that much of an inexperienced oaf. (The rudeness is pretty much in character, though.)

 

57 minutes ago, Valnar said:

What I'm interested in though is creating an Uleerian version of that myth in which Uleeria is instigator and helps to keep the burgeoning romance alive in the face of interference of an as yet undecided god (possibly Eurmal, because lols).

It is perfectly possible to insert Uleria as positive meddler in the Three Challenges arc, possibly setting up the meeting between the couple.

As to the deity running interference, the solar court is full of these. It could be stuffy King Griffon (as a foreshadowing of Orlanth's entry to Maggotliege's court).

57 minutes ago, Valnar said:

The paradox being I'm thinking of using the children of Orlanth and Ernalda as Uleeria's tools in helping Orlanth accomplish the necessary tasks thereby ensuring their birth. Sticking to the principle of if you want to make something feel more Gloranthan make it more fantastical.

That's not that unusual, really. The Ernalda quest in King of Dragon Pass has Ernalda encountering her yet unborn daughter Babeester as one of the obstacles/proofs of her purpose.

Likewise, when Orlanth encounters the pair of Lhankor Mhy and Issaries on his Lightbringer's Quest, the encounter is presented as if it was their first meeting, yet both LM and Issaries had been mainstays at Orlanth's and Ernalda's shared court for many a myth.

 

It is entirely possible that another aspect of Orlanth met his Ernalda under different circumstances. If you produce a cool story that fits into the early Orlanthi myths somewhere, go for it.

 

8 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

In the Descent from the Great Mountain story in Heortling Mythology, Orlanth's and Ernalda's households leave the Spike, but they are not yet mentioned as having been married,

This is a different tale from the Downland Migration, which Ernalda doesn't take part in at all. When Orlanth liberates his wife (by slaying the Evil Emperor), he brings her back to his mother's lands at Dragon Pass.

I don't really think that this myth is about the migration, it is rather about the association of the gods and goddesses with their animal or plant companions. In this it yields much the same result for the male gods as the one in Anaxial's Roster about the Storm Gods hiding from the bad sorcerer.

But then there was a migration of the pastoralist tribes down from the Cosmic Mountain, the one that produced the Andam Horde with its Ordeeds, the Ram People that attacked Dara Happa, etc. (IMO also including Storm Bull and the majority of the Praxian founders), and while I doubt that they brought their own land goddesses with them. If Orlanth was involved in that, he may have taken a lesser role than that of the King of the Gods - possibly as the Ram God.

8 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

and yet we get mentions of their children, Barntar, Voriof and Vingkot, among others. You can probably work out a chronology for this sort of thing, but I think that's missing the greater point of God Time mystery.

Yes, mention of Vingkot and Voriof does appear to create a paradox, as they shouldn't have been born yet. (Vingkot is not a son of Ernalda in any of those stories, anyway, but rather the son of a mortal woman who became king of the people of Orlanth, and a god in Storm Village at the same time.)

However, deities have more than a single manifestation or incarnation, which sometimes shows in the recital of the names by which a deity is known. These names usually stand for a feat or a series of feats.

For comparison, the Krishna participating in the events of the Mahabarata is only one of several manifestations, IIRC the eighth.

[Bill the barbarian]

2 hours ago, Valnar said:

as the versions recounted by Danny Zuco and Sandy Olsson of a summer of love ( a walla walla).

Tell me more, tell me more. 

[albinoboo]

Patterns going in cycles is not unknown in Glorantha, I see no reason why you can't do it in God time.

[RHW]

For what it's worth, when I've run hero quests, generally causality works in the context of that quest. Things move forward, the things that happen in one encounter effect the next. Any one individual Godtime story is internally consistent. They're just rarely consistent with each other. But if you're inside a story, it all makes sense.

I do like to remind the players that time and space don't make sense to them though.

"Seconds later, or was it a century, you cover the ten thousand miles between the city gate and the palace. When you look back, it seems only a few feet away."

[g33k]

22 minutes ago, albinoboo said:

Patterns going in cycles is not unknown in Glorantha, I see no reason why you can't do it in God time.

... except it might incite Barbarians to sing another verse.

Or -- gods forbid -- the entirety of Barley Mow.

In God Time.

[g33k]

11 minutes ago, RHW said:

For what it's worth, when I've run hero quests, generally causality works in the context of that quest. Things move forward, the things that happen in one encounter effect the next. Any one individual Godtime story is internally consistent. They're just rarely consistent with each other. But if you're inside a story, it all makes sense.

I do like to remind the players that time and space don't make sense to them though.

"Seconds later, or was it a century, you cover the ten thousand miles between the city gate and the palace. When you look back, it seems only a few feet away."

And of course, once things get that wibbly-wobbly... causality may exist, but not follow in any sequential sense.

Edited July 9, 2019 by g33k

[Bill the barbarian]

25 minutes ago, g33k said:

... except it might incite Barbarians to sing another verse.

 

Tell me more, tell me more

Barbarians like to  sing

Tell me more, tell me more

This could become quite a thing...

Oh oh... oh, oh, o Oohhh... all on a summer's ni—iggh—igh—ight...

Edited July 9, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[g33k]

2 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Tell me more, tell me more

Barbarians like to  sing

Tell me more, tell me more

This could become quite a thing...

Oh oh, all on a summer's ni—iggh—igh—ight...

See?

Causality!

[Bill the barbarian]

picture the gent at left wearing the pointy helmet shaking knees, hips and elbows right along with Zuco's boys singing...

"a Walla, walla, walla"

[Bill the barbarian]

24 minutes ago, g33k said:

Or -- gods forbid -- the entirety of Barley Mow.

 

Now what were those words again... ah here's my pitch pipe...

<huuuummmmm>

Edited July 9, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Joerg]

This thread has now degenerated into "Casualty of the Good Time"

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, RHW said:

For what it's worth, when I've run hero quests, generally causality works in the context of that quest. Things move forward, the things that happen in one encounter effect the next. Any one individual Godtime story is internally consistent. ace. When you look back, it seems only a few feet away."

Sure - this is the same way that any single myth is internally consistent, even if it doesn't fit with other ones.

(Possibly excepting some Eurmal heroquests or something, what do I know? I could easily imagine post-modern, unreliable narrator Eurmal HQs.)

Edited July 9, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[M Helsdon]

The God Time certainly had duration, and each god seems to have performed their actions sequentially, but every deity seems to have had their own sequence, and so they are often contradictory. The God Time definitely had distinct eras, and a gradual increase in entropy, but understanding it is beyond the Event Horizon of the Compromise and the beginning of Time, so mortal minds are probably unable to understand it. The goddess of Truth didn't survive, so there are now no absolute truths in Glorantha: YGWV is innate to the nature of the world.

[albinoboo]

I suppose  that you could argue that Orlanth's draconic connection means that his children making their parents   become an item is evidence of the effect of Ouroboros.

[Ali the Helering]

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24332370-500-the-time-paradox-how-your-brain-creates-the-fourth-dimension/

Since time appears to be perceptional rather than absolute, all one  can do is quote Douglas Adams, master of 4 dimensions.

Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so. 

Causality is a Brithini lie🙃

[Julian Lord]

It's fairly standard to suggest that Magic and Miracles intrinsically violate causality, so I'm not sure that it can even exist in Glorantha, where Myth and Magic define everything.

[soltakss]

On 7/9/2019 at 1:45 PM, Valnar said:

In the god time there was no time and a myriad of sources say that all the events of the god time are all happening at once.

Yes and No. As with anything Glorantha, Yes and No is a good answer.

The God Time is one event, with everything happening simultaneously outside of Time itself.

However, there are clearly things that are linear and have causality. Many of the Myths are Linear and A happens because B happened and causes C to happen. That's fine and dandy, it makes things nice and clear and easy to use.

The difficulty, or fun, happens when you look at several myths that interact. So, one myth might have A causes B causes C and another myth might have D causes E causes F, but there could be a myth where F happens in A and E relates to something that happened in C.

I can't think of any examples, off the top of my head, but I know there are example out there. Sometimes, a deity can be referenced before the deity is born, for example.

On 7/9/2019 at 1:45 PM, Valnar said:

So can one get creative with apparent paradoxes?

Absolutely, yes, you can get creative with apparent paradoxes.

 

On 7/9/2019 at 1:45 PM, Valnar said:

What I'm interested in though is creating an Uleerian version of that myth in which Uleeria is instigator and helps to keep the burgeoning romance alive in the face of interference of an as yet undecided god (possibly Eurmal, because lols). The paradox being I'm thinking of using the children of Orlanth and Ernalda as Uleeria's tools in helping Orlanth accomplish the necessary tasks thereby ensuring their birth. Sticking to the principle of if you want to make something feel more Gloranthan make it more fantastical.

That kind of thing can work, as each Myth is seen differently through the eyes of the participants and onlookers.

So, looking at the Lightbringer Quest, it can be seen as:

• Orlanth: Whoops, I broke things big time and I need to fix it
• Chalana Arroy: The world needs healing and I want to be the one to heal it
• Lhankor Mhy: I need to bring back my True Love, the Mistress of Light and Knowledge, and this Orlanth chappie seems to know what he's doing
• Issaries: They need a guide, I am a guide, they need to find a Safe Path, I can find a Safe Path, perhaps we can do some trading
• Flesh Man: Wow, the world is a really confusing place, now that Grandfather Mortal has gone, perhaps these nice people can help me make sense of everything
• Eurmal: I'm bored, what can I do that's interesting, I know, I went to Hell to bring back Death, perhaps I can go again and bring back something interesting, this lot are going to Hell, so I might as well join them
• Ginna Jar: Who knows, I am mysterious and nobody knows what I am

Looking at the LBQ from different persepectives shows that each deity had their own reasons for completing the HeroQuest. 

In the same way, Uleria might have wanted to bring all life together and could have persuaded the LightBringers to carry out their Quest. In the same way that Elmal was the Warrior who Guarded the Stead, Ernalda was the Queen to stayed at home and Doburdan was The Warrior who knobbed the Queen while Orlanth was Away.

Edited July 19, 2019 by soltakss

[alakoring]

Mmm, Walla Walla onions!

[Darius West]

On 7/9/2019 at 10:45 PM, Valnar said:

In the god time there was no time and a myriad of sources say that all the events of the god time are all happening at once. So can one get creative with apparent paradoxes?

Take for example the myth of Orlanth wooing Ernalda. I imagine that the versions told by Orlanthi and Ernalda priests and would be as different as the versions recounted by Danny Zuco and Sandy Olsson of a summer of love ( a walla walla).

What I'm interested in though is creating an Uleerian version of that myth in which Uleeria is instigator and helps to keep the burgeoning romance alive in the face of interference of an as yet undecided god (possibly Eurmal, because lols). The paradox being I'm thinking of using the children of Orlanth and Ernalda as Uleeria's tools in helping Orlanth accomplish the necessary tasks thereby ensuring their birth. Sticking to the principle of if you want to make something feel more Gloranthan make it more fantastical.

The thing about the Gods is that they have ossified.  God Time too is now "fixed" as if in stone.  Think of God Time as if you are walking through a temple, where things only move because you, the actor, are moving, and your moving life int hat time sets the tale in motion.  Now God Time can only change because many people have moved through it, making their own small impact on the environment.  God Time is a huge 4D monomyth, that serves as a superstructure.  Of course every culture, and perhaps every individual who interacts with it sees and interprets the same information differently.  Thus all time in God Time is a false perception from creatures used to understanding the world in terms of the elapse of Time.  Without time the whole thing becomes solid state, where the only action is magical transfer, and causality is a superimposed illusion that time dwelling creatures have superimposed.  In such an environment, if you were able to move backwards, you could go backwards in the story, but that would require Godlearner sorcery.

[JonL]

On 7/9/2019 at 1:47 PM, g33k said:

... except it might incite Barbarians to sing another verse.

Or -- gods forbid -- the entirety of Barley Mow.

In God Time.

I hear there's a rare bog, Kraljaki bog, a bog down by the Blocky-o...