Several lore questions

[David Scott]

26 minutes ago, coffeemancer said:

but we should also consider that Argrath is probably 5 different people

There are at least 5 different people named Argrath as the name is not uncommon:

 https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/glorantha-2/cultures/orlanthi-overview/orlanthi-names/

[AndreJarosch]

1 hour ago, coffeemancer said:

more lore: how can Kallyr be killed by harrek in 1630 when she died in 1626?

King of Sartar (purple softcover book, 1992 Chaosium & Issaries edition), page 212 "Events of my Life": 
1630 - Wolf Pirates sack Wilmskirk. Kallyr kills Gunda, I lose my three fingers. Harrek follows, kills the good queen and plunders Boldhome, then remains for the winter

King of Sartar (hardcover book, 215 Chaosium), page 182 2Events of my Life": 
1630 - Wolf Pirates sack Wilmskirk. I lose my three fingers. Harrek follows, plunders Boldhome, then remains for the winter

So Kallyr is not killed in 1630, because she already dies in 1626. And Gunda is lucky, because she isn´t killed in 1630... 
 

[HeartQuintessence]

So if the Tribes are all labeled and listed, does this mean that onl clans are free for creation in Glorantha. I am trying to recognize what to call the group I am creatin using the HQG rules.  Since as people have stated in 1625 there are twenty four tribes of Sartar.

Is there a way to distinguish what tribes go with what clans or are the clans intentionally undefined?

[Nick Brooke]

12 minutes ago, HeartQuintessence said:

So if the Tribes are all labeled and listed, does this mean that only clans are free for creation in Glorantha.

Is there a way to distinguish what tribes go with what clans or are the clans intentionally undefined?

My advice here echoes Jonathan Tweet’s, so I’ll just quote him.

[David Scott]

1 minute ago, HeartQuintessence said:

Is there a way to distinguish what tribes go with what clans or are the clans intentionally undefined?

I don't think there is a clearly defined list, clans come and go. With my Lismelder campaign, rather than mess with what was there I shoehorned another player developed clan in to the area.

If anyone wants to create lists I can put them up on on wellofdaliath.chaosium.com

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, coffeemancer said:

but why are everyone in sartar so ready to unify behind Argrath but refuse to give Leika the time of day? is it just because Argrath has relation to Sartar, the person?

Because Argrath is effectively an 'outsider'. There's no inter-tribal baggage/rivalries.  

Leika is Colymar - a dominant western tribe, but outside the city confederations. She's a rival to the Malani and the Locaem (and wants them to return the former Colymar clans they now rule). The Lismelder and Kheldon (where Kallyr were from) distrust her....

And why if I was the Culbrea king, should I submit to Leika? I helped win the Battle of Iceland and the Battle of Dangerford. Therefore I'm as justified to become King of Sartar as she is. 

Everyone, though, can accept Argrath (assuming that they can manipulate him to their advantage).

 

[Jeff]

11 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Because Argrath is effectively an 'outsider'. There's no inter-tribal baggage/rivalries.  

Leika is Colymar - a dominant western tribe, but outside the city confederations. She's a rival to the Malani and the Locaem (and wants them to return the former Colymar clans they now rule). The Lismelder and Kheldon (where Kallyr were from) distrust her....

And why if I was the Culbrea king, should I submit to Leika? I helped win the Battle of Iceland and the Battle of Dangerford. Therefore I'm as justified to become King of Sartar as she is. 

Everyone, though, can accept Argrath (assuming that they can manipulate him to their advantage).

 

Argrath has has a personal army of bodyguards sworn directly to him (outside of clan and tribal structure) that is larger and more deadly than what any of the tribal leaders can muster. And has the backing of the Praxian khans. And can prove descent from Sartar (making him eligible to be the Orlanth Rex above the tribes).

[coffeemancer]

14 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Because Argrath is effectively an 'outsider'. There's no inter-tribal baggage/rivalries.  

Leika is Colymar - a dominant western tribe, but outside the city confederations. She's a rival to the Malani and the Locaem (and wants them to return the former Colymar clans they now rule). The Lismelder and Kheldon (where Kallyr were from) distrust her....

And why if I was the Culbrea king, should I submit to Leika? I helped win the Battle of Iceland and the Battle of Dangerford. Therefore I'm as justified to become King of Sartar as she is. 

Everyone, though, can accept Argrath (assuming that they can manipulate him to their advantage).

 

makes sense.

My game is gonna get real fucky when Argrath makes his bid. knowing my players, they are likely to prevent Leikas death, but while their clan is loyal to her one of them is loyal to argrath, one to himself and one to the clan, but his hate toward the lunars might be stronger than that

[Jeff]

Just now, coffeemancer said:

makes sense.

My game is gonna get real fucky when Argrath makes his bid. knowing my players, they are likely to prevent Leikas death, but while their clan is loyal to her one of them is loyal to argrath, one to himself and one to the clan, but his hate toward the lunars might be stronger than that

Leika doesn't die - Kallyr does.

[coffeemancer]

2 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Leika doesn't die - Kallyr does.

she dies later, i mean. at the battle of hound knob. Kallyr is beyond them to save

Edited April 7, 2020 by coffeemancer
knob

[Jeff]

Just now, coffeemancer said:

she dies later, i mean. Kallyr is beyond them to save

Well many years later. And a lot happens between 1625 and 1638 (which is the canonical date of Leika's death, although if you want to kill her off sooner, there are plenty of opportunities).

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, HeartQuintessence said:

So if the Tribes are all labeled and listed, does this mean that onl clans are free for creation in Glorantha. I am trying to recognize what to call the group I am creatin using the HQG rules.  Since as people have stated in 1625 there are twenty four tribes of Sartar.

The large tribes are broadly defined (and some much more detailed than others). The easiest thing to do if you want your own tribe is to simply select/rename one of those that is not well-defined (e.g. one of the small Far Point tribes around Alone, the Balkoth or Aranwyth). 

However, keep in mind that there's a lot of things in flux after the Dragonrise in 1625 and the subsequent battles of Jonstown and Dangerford.

The Dinacoli were a very large, pro-Lunar tribe. They're leadership has been shattered by these events. Maybe they will split into two rival tribes?  Choose a set of clans there that have set about forming a new tribe.

The Locaem were pro-Lunar. The leadership was eaten by the dragon. The clans have been cursed by Ernalda and Orlanth. Now one of the clans is trying to form a new tribe out of the old.

The Maboder were destroyed by the Telmori in 1606. The Lunars held Stonegate, the old Maboder tribal fort, but have recently left. Some want to reform the Maboder, but maybe others want to form a new tribe from refugees.

It's easier to work at the clan level, though, as many have never been named. The tribes most detailed are the Colymar, Cinsina, Culbrea, Lismelder, and Malani; and to a lesser extent the Dinacoli and Torkani. 

 

[coffeemancer]

speaking of all this dragonrise and argarth, how many great calamities are there in and around the herowars?

like, the ice trolls finishing their project, causing destructions and eventual flooding.

The dwarves finishing their project to raise a continent.

Gods being cut out from the world.

The moon crashing to earth.

Any more?

[scott-martin]

6 minutes ago, coffeemancer said:

Kallyr is beyond them to save

One of my favorite lines in the canon these days, by the way, is that at the end of all things "Argrath called for the help of the stars. The Pole Star, who ruled all of the sky now, sent his favorite lover to help. This was the Starbrow." So even Kallyr is not off the table for esoteric games (see your most recent reply) if someone finds her interesting enough. Arguably something happens within the cultic landscape to raise the profile of her favorite mysteries to rulership of the argrathite sky. Players can participate.

[Darius West]

5 hours ago, coffeemancer said:

it seems a bit odd to me that the sartarites would be so obsessed with geneology but then again this is the slavekeeping followers of the god of freedom

Saying stuff like that would get you shot dead in 1860s Kentucky.

[Darius West]

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

Depending on your view point, the Sable Tribe had a complex political issue when the Lunars were around. 2/5s were pro, 2/5s were conservative and 1/5 neutral. In the aftermath of Moonbroth II 2/5s were effectively eliminated. The remaining 3/5 were protected from most (misplaced) retribution by the most respected elder or by joining Argrath.The tribal Khan sensibly supported Argrath. White Bull members are roughly a third of adults (based on upcoming CoG cult distribution figures).

I am mainly in agreement with you on this.  It is a somewhat fraught area of Gloranthan history so I am going to put it up as a separate topic for discussion, mainly to underline that it needs some clarification to the authors on the forum.

[Sir_Godspeed]

2 hours ago, coffeemancer said:

speaking of all this dragonrise and argarth, how many great calamities are there in and around the herowars?

like, the ice trolls finishing their project, causing destructions and eventual flooding.

The dwarves finishing their project to raise a continent.

Gods being cut out from the world.

The moon crashing to earth.

Any more?

The Reforesting is certainly calamitous to some. 

The Kingdom of War appears to canonically get stamped out fairly quickly, but there's no reason it has to end like that in people's timelines. There's also the ever-present question what Loskalm had to do to win. 

Rastagar emerges from Dorastor after the Dragonkill and does some pretty awful things. 

Sheng Seleris gets ressurected and also does awful things. 

Fun times.

[Stephen L]

6 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

At this point, we know his shoe size.

Golly, gosh, now I'm really excited.  You've got to share, my Glorantha lore is *so* incomplete without knowing Argrath's shoe size.

 

6 hours ago, coffeemancer said:

slavekeeping followers of the god of freedom

Just posted on another topic.  But not in my Glorantha… I have the mobility rune tied to a concept of freedom, at least in Heortling eyes, and so I have slavery offensive to them.

[Jeff]

10 minutes ago, Stephen L said:

Golly, gosh, now I'm really excited.  You've got to share, my Glorantha lore is *so* incomplete without knowing Argrath's shoe size.

Nick's point is that actually we know quite a lot about Argrath and you can expect to see that in forthcoming publications.

[g33k]

6 hours ago, coffeemancer said:

it seems a bit odd to me that the sartarites would be so obsessed with geneology but then again this is the slavekeeping followers of the god of freedom

The gods themselves -- very immanent in their lives, their cultures! -- have important geneologies.

Foundational heroes have god-ancestry.

Most of our modern perspectives are askew in Gloranthat... or vice versa.

[coffeemancer]

53 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

The Reforesting is certainly calamitous to some. 

The Kingdom of War appears to canonically get stamped out fairly quickly, but there's no reason it has to end like that in people's timelines. There's also the ever-present question what Loskalm had to do to win. 

Rastagar emerges from Dorastor after the Dragonkill and does some pretty awful things. 

Sheng Seleris gets ressurected and also does awful things. 

Fun times.

Does Rastagar make the monster empire?

do we know the consequences of cutting the gods out of the world? does the seasons stop? do people lose magic? if so, what happens to sorcery and dragons?

what happens to the spirits and spirit world?

I am just incredibly curious on what the post herowars world looks like

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, coffeemancer said:

do we know the consequences of cutting the gods out of the world? does the seasons stop? do people lose magic? if so, what happens to sorcery and dragons?

what happens to the spirits and spirit world?

I am just incredibly curious on what the post herowars world looks like

There is a story of Greg Stafford being asked this at a convention in Britain, I believe (some of the members on this forum where there, but I can't recall who, sorry) and his response was pointing out at the landscape outside. 

Basically, the general idea seems to be that post-Hero Wars Glorantha becomes more "mundane" and less magical. 

The King of Sartar book goes into a little more detail, but it's all based on unreliable sources and unreliable narrators. The general jist seems to be, however, that post-Hero Wars everyone in Dragon Pass loses the ability to read or write, and historical sources are forgotten (making the Hero Wars and the identity of Argrath a mystery), until a dictatorical regime by one Harshax (or their predecessors) unifies it in some manner. That is the point in time when the actual book is being composed from older, fragmentary sources. 

[AndreJarosch]

7 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

There is a story of Greg Stafford being asked this at a convention in Britain, I believe (some of the members on this forum where there, but I can't recall who, sorry) and his response was pointing out at the landscape outside. 

Basically, the general idea seems to be that post-Hero Wars Glorantha becomes more "mundane" and less magical. 

The King of Sartar book goes into a little more detail, but it's all based on unreliable sources and unreliable narrators. The general jist seems to be, however, that post-Hero Wars everyone in Dragon Pass loses the ability to read or write, and historical sources are forgotten (making the Hero Wars and the identity of Argrath a mystery), until a dictatorical regime by one Harshax (or their predecessors) unifies it in some manner. That is the point in time when the actual book is being composed from older, fragmentary sources. 

And in the fourth (or fifth, or sixth) age a highway with six lines will be build from New New Pavis to New Yuthuppa to make it easier for the horseless steam wagons to get from one side of Harshax Empire to the other. :-)

[Shiningbrow]

18 hours ago, coffeemancer said:

more lore: how can Kallyr be killed by harrek in 1630 when she died in 1626?

There's this little thing called "resurrection"...

Or LBQ quest...

Or one of her kids/relatives goes to some certain ruins mentioned in a certain adventure book and does a certain ritual...

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

There's this little thing called "resurrection"...

Or LBQ quest...

 

  Hide contents

Or one of her kids/relatives goes to some certain ruins mentioned in a certain adventure book and does a certain ritual...

 

*SPOILERS*




In the canonical campaign, she's going to get killed in 1626. And stay dead. Heck, this is mentioned in the core RQG rule book.