Rune Ties over 100%

[soltakss]

An association with a Rune is treated as a skill and, in RQG, skills can go over 100%.

Can a tie to a Rune go over 100%?

What is the effect of having a Rune Tie over 100%? A better Special and Critical chance, clearly, but does it have any other effect?

Presumably if a Rune is paired and Runes can go over 100%, the other Rune in the Pair cannot be gained, so is always at 0%.

[Kloster]

As I understand, paired runes can not go above 99%, leaving the 2nd part at 01%.

For the runes that are not paired, I still don't have made my mind.

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

Can a tie to a Rune go over 100%?

In conversations with @Jeff - no.

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

What is the effect of having a Rune Tie over 100%? A better Special and Critical chance, clearly, but does it have any other effect?

However my players' twigged this early. Along with a better Special and Critical chance as you say, it acts as a buffer when you fail or fumble a roll: 

Quote

Failure: On a failure, the adventurer subtracts –20% from all further rolls using that Rune until they can spend a day meditating on the Rune.

Fumble: On a fumble, the adventurer immediately loses –1D10% from the Rune...

so with 109% you'd still have 89% with a fail and on fumble the most you'd lose is 10% leaving you with 99%.

With every 10% above 100%, i've toyed with a free rune point when using that rune only. eg at 110% Air you'd get a free rune point to cast any Rune spell that uses that rune. Renewable using the usual methods, not part of your Rune pool.

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

Presumably if a Rune is paired and Runes can go over 100%, the other Rune in the Pair cannot be gained, so is always at 0%.

yes.

[Richard S.]

Well, from what I've heard illuminates will be able to increase paired runes separately from each other, so you can have 100%+ in one while still having a rating in the other.

[David Scott]

39 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Well, from what I've heard illuminates will be able to increase paired runes separately from each other, so you can have 100%+ in one while still having a rating in the other.

It's in the category of a power that "almost all" illuminates possess. So most illuminates will be able to do but not all. Those illuminated don't get all illumination powers.

[Lordabdul]

9 hours ago, Kloster said:

As I understand, paired runes can not go above 99%, leaving the 2nd part at 01%.

Why not 100% and 0%?

[Richard S.]

Just now, lordabdul said:

Why not 100% and 0%?

Well considering mortals are made up of little bits of all the runes, I don't think you can fully sever your connection to one of them.

[Kloster]

7 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Why not 100% and 0%?

RQG p416:

"In the case of opposed Runes, the opposing Rune’s value must be decreased accordingly. Because the opposed Rune must have some value, 99% is the highest any opposed Rune can be rated, with the opposing Rune at 1%."

[Kloster]

7 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Why not 100% and 0%?

That means that the right answer is: Because Jeff or Jason (or somebody else in the creation team) decided it. This seems to me logical because going to 0 would mean loosing a rune, which I can't see possible.

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

This seems to me logical because going to 0 would mean loosing a rune, which I can't see possible.

Or not having the rune in the first place. I know that paired Runes have two scores, but I might not even want a score with the other Rune. For, me, the other Rune score is just a maximum amount that I can have with the Rune.

So, if I am a devout, zealot Humakti and have Death at 70%, why should I want Life/Fertility at 30%? Why should I even want the Life rune? I have Death 70% and that is it. If I wanted to start the Life/Fertility rune, I could get it at basic and increase it, but the maximum it could reach is 30%.

Similarly, a devout Chalana Arroy cultists has Life/Fertility Rune and would not want to touch a Death Rune with a ten foot bargepole.

[Joerg]

6 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Or not having the rune in the first place. I know that paired Runes have two scores, but I might not even want a score with the other Rune. For, me, the other Rune score is just a maximum amount that I can have with the Rune.

So, if I am a devout, zealot Humakti and have Death at 70%, why should I want Life/Fertility at 30%? Why should I even want the Life rune? I have Death 70% and that is it. If I wanted to start the Life/Fertility rune, I could get it at basic and increase it, but the maximum it could reach is 30%.

Getting rid of that Life rune is easy - join Humakt on the Other Side. No more pesky eating, breathing or sleeping, just pure Death.

If you still have unfinished business, you can become a ghost.

Edited May 3, 2020 by Joerg

[HreshtIronBorne]

Also, can't Gods, and therefore cultists, lose Runes? Like Yelmalio and the Hill of Gold?

[Kloster]

15 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Or not having the rune in the first place. I know that paired Runes have two scores, but I might not even want a score with the other Rune. For, me, the other Rune score is just a maximum amount that I can have with the Rune.

So, if I am a devout, zealot Humakti and have Death at 70%, why should I want Life/Fertility at 30%? Why should I even want the Life rune? I have Death 70% and that is it. If I wanted to start the Life/Fertility rune, I could get it at basic and increase it, but the maximum it could reach is 30%.

Similarly, a devout Chalana Arroy cultists has Life/Fertility Rune and would not want to touch a Death Rune with a ten foot bargepole.

Never having a Rune (instead of losing one) is a completely different matter. RAW, you can't do as you explain, but it is (for me) correct.

4 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Also, can't Gods, and therefore cultists, lose Runes? Like Yelmalio and the Hill of Gold?

Gods, yes, for sure. Humans (or trolls, or ducks, or ...), I don't know.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Also, can't Gods, and therefore cultists, lose Runes? Like Yelmalio and the Hill of Gold?

Of course!  Gods, demons, and other mortal questers want your powers... they will fight you for them, steal them from you, or trick you to give them away. 

And it should be noticeable in some way that you are not the same afterwards. (Someone who's lost the Air Rune might seem slow and lethargic, or have trouble breathing, etc.)

[Lordabdul]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Someone who's lost the Air Rune might seem slow and lethargic, or have trouble breathing, etc.

But if you don't pick the Air Rune at character creation (and don't get any bonus on it from your homeland upbringing), wouldn't you have no affinity with that Rune to begin with? So a 0% score?

[Kloster]

52 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

But if you don't pick the Air Rune at character creation (and don't get any bonus on it from your homeland upbringing), wouldn't you have no affinity with that Rune to begin with? So a 0% score?

Right.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

But if you don't pick the Air Rune at character creation (and don't get any bonus on it from your homeland upbringing), wouldn't you have no affinity with that Rune to begin with? So a 0% score?

Assigning a few percent to the other elemental runes is possible at character creation. Enough for a desperation roll.

[HreshtIronBorne]

Yeah but, without assigning anything to them you start with flat 0%. I know almost every chararcter we have rolled up has had 3 elemental runes all at 60%, the other 3 at 0%. So, as far as our adventurers go they just aren't connected at all to several runes. 

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

But if you don't pick the Air Rune at character creation (and don't get any bonus on it from your homeland upbringing), wouldn't you have no affinity with that Rune to begin with? So a 0% score?

I was noting a Rune that you had and lost, not one that you have no affinity/association to begin with. Every mortal has some amount of each element (you do have eyes, breath, bones, blood, guts, and your magical "glands").  But not everyone has affinity to draw upon those Runes. What you haven't drawn upon doesn't change you.  But for those who have drawn heavily upon the Rune, and then lost it, that should have a noticeable effect. (At least it does in my games.)

5 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

I know almost every chararcter we have rolled up has had 3 elemental runes all at 60%, the other 3 at 0%.

I often add a fourth element, just because I find it interesting to do so.  Don't think I've ever done a 60/60/60 split.

[HreshtIronBorne]

8 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I was noting a Rune that you had and lost, not one that you have no affinity/association to begin with. Every mortal has some amount of each element (you do have eyes, breath, bones, blood, guts, and your magical "glands").  But not everyone has affinity to draw upon those Runes. What you haven't drawn upon doesn't change you.  But for those who have drawn heavily upon the Rune, and then lost it, that should have a noticeable effect. (At least it does in my games.)

I think you are absolutely right. Someone in tune with a rune, especially at or above 80% that then loses a rune should have definite noticeable effects. Whether the players pick up on it in a NPC, or the PCs experience some Hill of Gold-ing themselves and lose a Rune they really liked. 

[Lordabdul]

54 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

But for those who have drawn heavily upon the Rune, and then lost it, that should have a noticeable effect. (At least it does in my games.)

Yeah, that's what I was asking.... I hadn't really thought about this until now, so yeah, good idea!

I imagine the effect you describe might be more or less temporary, like someone quitting cigarettes or sugar and going through a difficult phase of readjustment. But in the long term, it's possible someone having lost their affinity to a Rune might recover and go back to being as "normal" as people who never had that Rune to begin with.

[Shiningbrow]

16 hours ago, soltakss said:

Or not having the rune in the first place. I know that paired Runes have two scores, but I might not even want a score with the other Rune. For, me, the other Rune score is just a maximum amount that I can have with the Rune.

So, if I am a devout, zealot Humakti and have Death at 70%, why should I want Life/Fertility at 30%? Why should I even want the Life rune? I have Death 70% and that is it. If I wanted to start the Life/Fertility rune, I could get it at basic and increase it, but the maximum it could reach is 30%.

Similarly, a devout Chalana Arroy cultists has Life/Fertility Rune and would not want to touch a Death Rune with a ten foot bargepole.

Because Life without Death is.meaningless. And Death only exists while there is something that is alive to die. 

I'm sure CA appreciates the cycle of life, death, renewal... And the occasional need to end suffering (and Chaos).

And Humakt, as much as he loves glorying in Death, likes to be able to live on to bring more death for longer... 

[davecake]

On 5/3/2020 at 1:14 AM, David Scott said:

It's in the category of a power that "almost all" illuminates possess. So most illuminates will be able to do but not all. Those illuminated don't get all illumination powers.

[Illuminates being able to progress in both of a pair of Tied Runes]

Quite unofficially, I prefer the idea that, by default, most Illuminates have to learn this power for each pair of Tied Runes separately, and individual pathways to Illumination usually only teach this directly for some pairs. And, the mysterious teaching methods of mysticism being what they are—mysticism can't really be taught well, Nysaloran riddles being one of the most reliable and easy and understandable methods of teaching, despite being unreliable, difficult and baffling, mostly it can only be experienced to 'teaching' consists of trying to put students in situations that might lead them to correct experience, like teaching zen—this can be a students individual journey. If, as it seems likely, the various experiences of Illumination (Nysaloran, or draconic, or whatever) are going to be an emerging part of the story and setting as we go on from here, we want it to be full of detail and flavour to differentiate the individual character story - lets make the Illumination paths a bit different in how they are experienced, and make it less of a binary single moment but have most Illuminated characters gradually learn and explore their Illuminated abilities after that first moment of Illumination, while maintaining the spirit of Illumination being a spiritual transformative journey with a rules light approach, and the essential unity of the experience. 

So, that said, I think most Illuminates likely learn how to progress in both of one linked pair initially, and learn others later. The majority of Illuminates (in at least Central Genertela and all the regions so far detailed for RQG play) will approach Illumination through either Lunar Illumination, or Nysaloran Illumination with a bit of a Solar flavour - and its notable that both the Seven Mothers and Yelm are very unusual in having opposed Runes as a cult, and it is the same pair - Life and Death - so I think it is very common for Illuminates to be able to progress in those Tied Runes. It makes a lot of mythic sense too - Lunars understanding the Goddess's descent into Hell and rebirth, exploring both Yanafal and Jakaleel's connection to Death and Deezola and Teelo Norri's connection to Life, Solar worshippers understanding Yelm's death and rebirth, experiencing Yelm as both BerNeel Arashagern, husband of Dendara, Lord of Life, and Bijiif lord of ashes in the land of the dead. Maybe there are other Tied pairs that they might teach through other linked parts of the religious/magical traditiions - for example, Irripi Ontor probably has inner mysteries that teach the reconciliation of Truth and Illusion. But there are some that are not really easily accessed that way - for example, both the Lunar and Solar religions seem very uncomfortable with, and poorly connected to, Disorder - so that might require your Illuminate seeking to expand their Illuminated powers to seek more obscure and distant sources of mystic knowledge, which seems appropriate and satisfying. Or to experience some sort of profound experience (personal or magical or mystical). 

And I find it quite satisfying that this idea of Tied Runes becoming unopposed is a simple to understand game mechanic that manages to both have very obvious and overt symbolism that reflects it as a profound mystery, and shows the deeply disconcerting nature of Illumination to most cults/Gloranthans, and clearly shows it as a profound transformation and has obvious game advantages to the 'Gbaji'/Occluded munchkins without being wildly unbalancing, thus being perfect for representing Nysalorism. 

We know a LOT less about draconic Illumination. The idea of Draconic Illumination generally teaching how to experience the reconciliation of opposites through make Tied Runes unopposed makes perfect sense too - you can see Dragonnewt rebirth, and the liberating nature of utuma, as a synthesis or reconciliation of Life and Death, or the mysterious temporary dream made real nature of Dream Dragons (and draconic reality in general) as a reconciliation of Illusion and Truth. The evolving progressing reconciliation of opposites natural to Dragonnewt progression makes it seem that at least part of their path might be to reconcile all such Tied pairs eventually. But I really like the idea that the most common starting pair of Tied Runes to reconcile for draconic forms of Illumination might be Beast and Man.

(It also seems likely that the draconified cults of the EWF era taught had a practice of teaching the contradictions of the cults power runes, so draconic Orlanth no longer was opposed to Stasis but understood Orlanths power draconicly manifest  in the Static heavens, draconic Ernalda could reconcile with Death and Disorder, etc. But diving into such specifics of EWF mystic practice is certainly something for a different thread)

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, davecake said:

—mysticism can't really be taught well, Nysaloran riddles being one of the most reliable and easy and understandable methods of teaching, despite being unreliable, difficult and baffling, mostly it can only be experienced to 'teaching' consists of trying to put students in situations that might lead them to correct experience, like teaching zen—this can be a students individual journey.

"If you follow me, you will not find what I found"

[French Desperate WindChild]

21 hours ago, soltakss said:

Or not having the rune in the first place. I know that paired Runes have two scores, but I might not even want a score with the other Rune. For, me, the other Rune score is just a maximum amount that I can have with the Rune.

So, if I am a devout, zealot Humakti and have Death at 70%, why should I want Life/Fertility at 30%? Why should I even want the Life rune? I have Death 70% and that is it. If I wanted to start the Life/Fertility rune, I could get it at basic and increase it, but the maximum it could reach is 30%.

Similarly, a devout Chalana Arroy cultists has Life/Fertility Rune and would not want to touch a Death Rune with a ten foot bargepole.

I would say there is nothing to want. Runes touch are or aren't. You can be touched  (x% ) or not (0%) by elemental rune. By nature of glorantha, you are touched both by paired runes.

An humakti would like to become more and more Death but an humakti is not Humakt.

A Chalana Arroy cultist would like to become more and more Life but, he/she is not Chalana. Even the best healer can, by mistake, hurt/kill someone or just fail to heal.