courteous lover in solar pantheon

[French Desperate WindChild]

Hello.

If we except lodrili behaviours, I am pretty sure there is a place for courtesy even in dara happa.

What divine figure could a solar noble invoke to obtain  any benefits ? (please don't try yelmalio, I will not believe you)

How courtesy would be applied ? poetry ? danse ? painting ?

 

May the sun warm your hearts (but not your abdomen fools !)

[Sir_Godspeed]

Maybe Yelm? Granted, he is presented as being on the receiving end of the Wedding Contest, but he does play an instrument, and I believe he also dances in the contest with Orlanth - even if that is an Orlanthi story. 

Maybe that aspect would be put on someone else within Dara Happan mythology proper. Arraz, Murharzarm, etc.

[soltakss]

53 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Maybe Yelm? Granted, he is presented as being on the receiving end of the Wedding Contest, but he does play an instrument, and I believe he also dances in the contest with Orlanth - even if that is an Orlanthi story. 

Yes, I'd have said Yelm for those reasons. He does a pretty ballet and plays the harp. 

A courtly Dara Happan would do whatever courtly people do, maybe dance, play musical instrument, recite or write poetry, sing, that kind of thing. I wouldn't restrict it to particular skills, sometimes just putting an expensive cloak over a puddle to let someone pass unsullied is courteous behaviour.

[Nick Brooke]

Polaris is lord of the dance, among other things.
Hyraos Truetune, a son of Yelm, is the harper of the gods.
Donandar is the cross-cultural deity of poetry, etc.

Hope this helps. 

[Borygon]

In old Cult Compendium there are two candidates:

Quote

Hyraos Truetune

Hyraos Truetune is the god of Harping. He is aclose friend to Molamin, and shrines to these two deities are often combined. Those worshiping this subcult can learn the spell of Truetune.

[Truetone: touch, temporal, non-stackable, reusable This spell must be cast upon a stringed musical instrument. For the duration of the spell, the skill of anyone attempting to play that instrument is doubled. The instrument glows under the spell.]

Molamin

Molamin is not one of Yelm’s children, but is the god of courtly music and stately dance. He learned his arts from Yelm and has become a permanent fixture in Yelm’s pantheon. Yelm initiates worshiping at his shrine can learn the spirit magic of Glamour.

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

As a tangent, I suspect that the Dara Happan notion of courtly behaviour involves as much "courting" of the parents as the main interest themselves. 

[Darius West]

Solar pantheon grabs me as having a lot of arranged marriages rather than ideas of Fine Amor.  Much more Apollonian rather than Dionysian.  I daresay that the culture of Yelm would likely regard Fine Amor as scandalous and provocative, and providing far too much space for female misbehavior.

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, Nick Brooke said:

Polaris is lord of the dance, among other things.

But Polaris' dance is a war dance.

[French Desperate WindChild]

29 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Solar pantheon grabs me as having a lot of arranged marriages rather than ideas of Fine Amor.  Much more Apollonian rather than Dionysian.  I daresay that the culture of Yelm would likely regard Fine Amor as scandalous and provocative, and providing far too much space for female misbehavior.

It seems to me that fine amor (irl) was dedicated to nobility in middle age and not Dionysian (well, few provocative stories as exception )

That's exactly the same you described: parents arranged marriage for their children with consideration of power / lineage / etc... and didn't care love and passion. But fine amor was created. Just to give a little  dream of freedom and (honourable) pleasure to this nice commodity called woman

Of course I can be wrong

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Solar pantheon grabs me as having a lot of arranged marriages rather than ideas of Fine Amor.  Much more Apollonian rather than Dionysian.  I daresay that the culture of Yelm would likely regard Fine Amor as scandalous and provocative, and providing far too much space for female misbehavior.

That was sort of my point above. I could imagine Dara Happan nobles having something akin to debutante balls (religious ceremonies of some kind) where eligible bachelors can show off their... eligibility. Poetry recitals, religious hymn-singing, dancing (maybe as a group, maybe that whole thing where all the debutants switch partners every x minutes as a group, or maybe something else). Maybe it involves acting in the stead of gods in some theatric reenactment, (arguably possible for girls too, depending on just how sexist you view Dara Happans to be). 

All ways to impress a girl's parents - with the support of your parents, of course (your parents sponsoring training, costume, gifts, etc. for the occasions). 

Now, whether this would be how most of the courting takes place I can't tell - but somehow I can't imagine young Yelmite noblemen meekly sitting around until their dad makes a deal with his cousin or whatever. While Yelmite culture is patriarchal, it also does seem to have a little machismo in it. 

Hell, it might even be EXPECTED for young noblemen/citizens to go through a period of rowdyness to "get it out of their system", as it were. Taking the chariot out for a joyride. Dad'll be upset, of course, but implicitly it's a "boys will be boys", and "he does show a fine fiery spirit, and in marriage it will be tempered", sorta thing. 

 

Just spitballing. Having some character agency is fun. (Unfortunately for the Dara Happan girls there's less of it... good thing the Seven Mothers are around these days. Although pleading to dad through mother or possibly mother's brother might be possible even in a pre-Lunar context, even if ultimately marriage is a business- and dynastic tool rather than having anything to do with personal fulfillment.)

[Jeff]

Yelmalio absolutely. In his myths he is the sworn protector of Ernalda and the Grain Goddesses against the deprivations of the Air and Darkness gods.

[Akhôrahil]

5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

What divine figure could a solar noble invoke to obtain  any benefits ? (please don't try yelmalio, I will not believe you)

I have no problems with Yelmalio. Courtesy often goes hand in hand with patriarchy and thinking women weak and helpless.

Now if he would only bathe now and then...

Edited May 27, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Sir_Godspeed]

22 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Yelmalio absolutely. In his myths he is the sworn protector of Ernalda and the Grain Goddesses against the deprivations of the Air and Darkness gods.

And apropos of Ernalda: in Esrolia, land of 10k goddesses, there's the story of how the Sky King (I forget his name, but I think he's a Yelm/Arraz/Aether analogue) wanted to conquer the earth godesses, but eventually decided to become a Husband-Protector instead after he grew to respect Ernalda (or whoever, it's been a while since I read it). Later going on to protect her against the predation of Sky and Sea, iirc.

Not directly relevant to Yelmalio or Dara Happa I suppose, but there's at least room in Esrolian mythology for a Sky god who's a... well, he's a man, but you know, not bad for a man.

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

I have no problems with Yelmalio. Courtesy often goes hand in hand with patriarchy and thinking women weak and helpless.

Now if he would only bathe now and then...

He's a Sky god - he's intrinsically clean.

[Richard S.]

9 minutes ago, Jeff said:

He's a Sky god - he's intrinsically clean.

Well, there must be some unfortunate reason for the "never bathe" geas

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Yelmalio absolutely. In his myths he is the sworn protector of Ernalda and the Grain Goddesses against the deprivations of the Air and Darkness gods.

I am absolutely desperate 😛

 

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

But Polaris' dance is a war dance.

It can be, but he's also the grandmaster of the Celestial Dance and his wife is the Goddess of Dance. 

In war, he is the strategist looking down and coordinating where the troops should go to achieve victory.  In peace, he celebrates the cycle of life, the cycle of seasons and all align to the movement of the stars (the Age of Polaris after all 😉 )

[Brootse]

33 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Well, there must be some unfortunate reason for the "never bathe" geas

Perhaps they burn the dirt away.

[Sir_Godspeed]

49 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Perhaps they burn the dirt away.

I'm not sure if oil/ash and strigil counts as a bath, but at least it's one way to avoid water.

[Brootse]

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I'm not sure if oil/ash and strigil counts as a bath, but at least it's one way to avoid water.

Ah, yes, forgot about those.

[Leingod]

I would think that if "courtly love" is a thing in Dara Happa, then much like fine amour it's typically going to be something not something that's expected to lead to marriage (and thus is also expected to not ever result in sex, though of course the realities of the situation will be what they will). In a patriarchal society, it's the patriarchs who have the final say in who marries who, after all; that one or the other party loves someone else is immaterial unless the patriarch is the type to be swayed by that argument.

Displays of courtly skill and elegance are of course a great way for young men and women to show off how accomplished and sophisticated they are, and will thus play a role in ensuring good marriage options, but any actual courtly romance is likely expected to be a chaste pursuit that both parties are probably expected to put aside when the time comes for them to marry whoever their family decides they'll marry and settle down into their rightful roles as husbands and wives, father and mothers.

[Darius West]

19 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

That was sort of my point above. I could imagine Dara Happan nobles having something akin to debutante balls (religious ceremonies of some kind) where eligible bachelors can show off their... eligibility. Poetry recitals, religious hymn-singing, dancing (maybe as a group, maybe that whole thing where all the debutants switch partners every x minutes as a group, or maybe something else). Maybe it involves acting in the stead of gods in some theatric reenactment, (arguably possible for girls too, depending on just how sexist you view Dara Happans to be). 

I actually strongly doubt that Solar Society has balls.  This was not a feature of Ancient or Classical life on Earth, so why would it be in Glorantha either?  I suspect the idea of chaperones, matchmakers, and arranged marriages, with a bit of awkward conversation under the hawkish gaze of a black clad grim faced widowed aunt is far more likely.  The whole Romeo soliloquy beneath the balcony, and subsequent climb and "seduction" would be considered a chaotic act in Yelmish society.  The birth of a bastard child will lead to ogres.

[Brootse]

9 minutes ago, Darius West said:

The birth of a bastard child will lead to ogres.

Haven't heard about this before. What's the source?

[Darius West]

7 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Haven't heard about this before. What's the source?

It is pure supposition on my part, sorry if that misled you, but think about it; it fits a bit too well.  Think about it in terms of Orlanthi tribal enemies and their occasional sexual taboos, but the Yelmish version.  You might even be stuck in the odd situation where incest is okay (like in Parthia or Ancient Egypt), but premarital sex is chaos. Consider that Pater Familias legally owns his daughter, and her virtue, and may dispose of it in any manner he sees fit (*shudder*), and after all, incest is often a sign of divinity, you only have to see how inbred many deities are to understand that... It is an accepted part of Glorantha lore that moral transgression leads to chaos, and ordered societies, by having more moral laws also produce more chaos and corruption.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Darius West

[Sir_Godspeed]

24 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I actually strongly doubt that Solar Society has balls.  This was not a feature of Ancient or Classical life on Earth, so why would it be in Glorantha either?  I suspect the idea of chaperones, matchmakers, and arranged marriages, with a bit of awkward conversation under the hawkish gaze of a black clad grim faced widowed aunt is far more likely.  The whole Romeo soliloquy beneath the balcony, and subsequent climb and "seduction" would be considered a chaotic act in Yelmish society.  The birth of a bastard child will lead to ogres.

Let's not call them balls, but upper class collective religious rites that involve unmarried youth performing in various roles for the pleasure of the gods and/or the elders. Whatever we call that is largely irrelevant. A chance to show off one's piety and one's skill in one skill or other. A chance to verify or falsify the claims your second-cousin has been making about the character of his son. 

While I totally agree that Yelmites are cynical marriage arrangers with a strict control from the pater familias (and informally probably from some widowed grandmother or aunt as you suggest), it would still be in a pater familias' interest to check out the lad he is about to promise his daughter away to. Alliances are strengthened if the ones used to secure them aren't complete buffoons (although in some cases even a complete buffoon might be worth a very desireable alliance). 

I also don't entirely discount the notion that a soft-hearted father might listen to his daughters pleas to not be wed to a particularly unsavory fellow. These are human beings, after all, and while romantic love doesn't really enter the equation, fear or disgust might. People are complex beings and do not robotically follow a cultural script like a computer program.