Fear (Something) Ideas and Mechanics

[claycle]

Let us suppose a player has Fear (Dragons) as a passion and the player is confronted by a dragon.

The player wishes his character to attack the dragon. The Fear passion is relatively strong (75). Would you...

1. Ask the player to make a Fear (Dragons) test - and fail - to attack the dragon?

2. Would you have the player have an inner contest, pitting some Rune or Passion against his Fear (Dragons) passion to attack the dragon?

3. Would you have the player make a Fear (Dragons) test (and succeed) to inspire him to attack the dragon (inspiration bonus applied to some other skill)?

4. Other ideas for handling strong passions like Fear when facing the object of the fear?

 

I don't have a good answer myself. I am looking for inspiration.

 

 

Edited June 21, 2020 by claycle

[Kloster]

I would say 1 is required to directly confront the dragon / go to contact.

In order to decide the course of action, I would say 2..

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, claycle said:

1. Ask the player to make a Fear (Dragons) test - and fail - to attack the dragon?

My instinct is that I would not stop the player from attacking the dragon, but I'd ask for a roll on the Inspiration table for the Fear passion and apply a penalty. However, that would require some creative re-interpreting of the passion augment table, as a "pass" gives a bonus and a "fail" gives a penalty. So if they do manage to roll over their passion, does that give them a +10% bonus to hit? I guess so.

Also I just noticed that Runes give -20 on a fail, whilst Passions only give -10. Never noticed that difference before., I thought the numeric results were the same for skills, runes, and passions.

Does this mean that if you manage to get a Fear passion down below 50, then you are into bonus territory most of the time? I don't think so, the rules don't really support this at all.

Edited June 21, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[Puckohue]

I'd only enforce a roll if the Passion is at 80% or higher. The one adventurer I had with 80%+ Fear (Dragons) decided to stay outside when the party confronted Yerezum Storn. After seeing the dream dragon defeated he got a chance to lower his fear passion.

 

[jajagappa]

I would most likely require 1.  I'd treat the result similar to an attack of the Fear spell (though not dying on a critical - probably just faint or flee).

If they "fail" the Fear passion, then they can take further action.  

If the player stated that they wished to oppose their Fear with some other ability (i.e. 2), then that works too, but it would need to be a Passion or Rune that is relevant.  (This is what I typically do in my HQG game).  In this case if they overcome Fear, they need to act based on whatever Passion/Rune they used against it.  If they don't, then they stand quivering in Fear, or if a critical for Fear, collapse or flee.

Either approach works fine.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

1) and

critical succees : the character is in panic (D6 roll  1-2 critical; 3-6 special fear spell effect) +10 in passion

special success : the character is in panic (D6 rol  1 critica;  2-3 special; 4-6 normal fear spell effect) + 5 in passion

success : the character is demoralized (spirit spell), if the fight is a victory -5 in passion, a defeat +5, some friends are killed +10

failure : the character is nice, if the fight is a victory -10 in passion, a defeat +5, some friends are killed +10

fumble: the character becomes berserk, if the fight is a victory -20 in passion, a defeat -10, some friends are killed new " hate passion" in addition of "fear passion"

 

 

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 hours ago, Puckohue said:

I'd only enforce a roll if the Passion is at 80% or higher

I know that's the rule, but, for the case of Fear, not sure it works.  Maybe if you were talking about hypothetically meeting a Dragon I'd waive the roll.  But actually meeting a Dragon should trigger something. 

Otherwise all Fears at less than 80% are effectively meaningless.

Maybe this should apply to other Passions too.  If you have Love Family at 60% and encounter a father just fouly slain by bad guys, the roll should probably be required.  If you are discussing a Father's Day gift, roll not required.

[Puckohue]

6 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

effectively meaningless

Unless you use your adventurer's passions and runes as guidelines for roleplay in addition to their mechanical effects.

[Akhôrahil]

39 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Otherwise all Fears at less than 80% are effectively meaningless.

I would absolutely allow using Fear to improve chances to detect, run away from, and perhaps even dodge the thing you Fear.

[Lordabdul]

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Also I just noticed that Runes give -20 on a fail, whilst Passions only give -10. Never noticed that difference before., I thought the numeric results were the same for skills, runes, and passions.

Huh that's weird, I hadn't noticed that either. That's kind of annoying (and a widespread issue in RQ rules). I would definitely house-rule it to be the same.

6 hours ago, claycle said:

I don't have a good answer myself. I am looking for inspiration.

If you're looking for inspiration, roll your "Love (RuneQuest)" passion!

It's kind of tricky because unlike Runes, whose augments last the whole activity (social interaction, combat, etc.), augments from Passions and skills only last for one single roll, if I understand the rules correctly. It's kind of lame to be super afraid of a Dragon but only get a penalty on the first roll, but it's also not quite RAW to apply the penalty for the entire duration of the encounter.... even though the latter is what I would be inclined to do, i.e. roll Fear (Dragon), and apply the opposite resulting modifier for the whole scene.

I wouldn't necessarily choose to ask for a roll based on the score... even if the character had Fear (Dragon) at 20%, I could ask for a roll, otherwise, what's the point of having it? (knowing my players, they would actually roll on their own!)  I would definitely apply modifiers to the roll based on the nature of the encounter, such as proximity to the dragon, sense of danger, whether the situation is similar to what caused the character's trauma in the first place, etc.

Edited June 21, 2020 by lordabdul

[jajagappa]

28 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Huh that's weird, I hadn't noticed that either. That's kind of annoying (and a widespread issue in RQ rules). I would definitely house-rule it to be the same.

I know I noted it to Jason at some point - it's certainly easier to have one consistent value.  That said, if the impact of Runic inspiration is stronger than that of Passions, then having less downside to a failure with a Passion inspiration could make sense.  I'll probably just leave as-is for the moment.

[skulldixon]

On 6/21/2020 at 1:22 PM, lordabdul said:

It's kind of tricky because unlike Runes, whose augments last the whole activity (social interaction, combat, etc.), augments from Passions and skills only last for one single roll, if I understand the rules correctly. 

So looking it up, both Runes and Passions last the whole situation.

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one wondering how to handle this. 

I think the approach I'll follow will be similar to how Rivers ave Personality disputes works.

When they encounter their fear, they try to roll above the % to push past or overcome that passion for the scene. 

A failed roll would indicate that their fear is holding them back and if the player wanted for force it they would increase the passion by +1d10. Though maybe instead it would cause -10% to all rolls for the situation.

Edited February 7, 2021 by skulldixon

[PhilHibbs]

Another thing about passions - if they ever drop below 50, I think they disappear. It makes no sense to have a passion below 50. If it makes sense for the adventurer to still have a strong opinion, then maybe replace it with the opposite passion (hate becomes love, loyalty becomes distrust, for example).

I think I might let a player flip a passion if they have a good reason to. Strong passions in the real world can reverse, have you ever loved someone who has jilted you and immediately you hate them, or they you?

Edited February 8, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Psullie]

I love the whole Passions mechanic, in the previous century when I ran a Pendragon campaign I really enforced Passions and Virtues and the game felt totally Arthurian, in fact having the characters do things against the players choice ended up driving a lot of the drama. 

In RQ the mechanic is watered down and this makes the Fear passion very difficult to adjudicate. I feel that if the players are selective on which Passions they play, then the GM should intervene. I'd go further than 1 above, if you pass a Fear Passion roll you will actively avoid the situation - and while under the effects of said Passion you are unable to utilise any other Passions in the same way you can not stack up multiple positive Augments. Only by failing your Fear check would you be free to act.

[Lordabdul]

23 hours ago, skulldixon said:

So looking it up, both Runes and Passions last the whole situation.

Correct, I was still confused at the time  

On 6/21/2020 at 1:53 PM, jajagappa said:

I know I noted it to Jason at some point - it's certainly easier to have one consistent value.  That said, if the impact of Runic inspiration is stronger than that of Passions, then having less downside to a failure with a Passion inspiration could make sense.  I'll probably just leave as-is for the moment.

It's actually more subtly complicated than I thought back then, I had to re-read the rules a few times:

• Augmenting is different from becoming Inspired.
  • You can Augment any ability with any other ability. You can augment a skill with a Passion, augment a Passion with a Rune, augment a Rune with a skill, etc.
  • This only lasts for that ability's next roll and the scale is +50/+30/+20/-20/-50
• Becoming Inspired can be done only with Passions and Runes
  • You specify what ability you want to augment (yay for reusing game terms to mean something else!), most probably some weapon skill or Orate or whatever.
  • This will last the whole scene.
  • You can't be inspired by more than one Rune or Passion in a scene... so you can't augment your Broadsword skill with Hate(Chaos) while augmenting your Shield skill with Love(Family) to defend your family from broos. Pick one, attack or defense, and augment that.
  • The scale is different from augmenting, and different between Passions and Runes
    • Runes have a scale of +50/+30/+20/-20*/special*
      • The -20 is applied to rolls using that Rune, not to rolls for the ability you tried to augment!
      • The "special" result is psychic turmoil... no penalty to the ability, but loss of Rune affinity and a recommendation to roleplay accordingly.
    • Passions have a scale of +50/+30/+20/-10*/special*
      • The -10 is applied to all rolls during the scene, not just rolls for the ability you tried to augment!
      • The "special" result is negative thoughts and despair... no penalty to the ability, but loss of Passion score and a recommendation to have the character run away or hide and be generally lethargic.

Can anybody spot any mistakes here? (I may still have missed a few details)

7 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

hate becomes love

Yep, this is how you run a romantic comedy in RQG

Edited February 8, 2021 by lordabdul

[Bill the barbarian]

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Can anybody spot any mistakes here? (I may still have missed a few details)

9 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

You may have, I am not as quick as I like to be these days (and had a snarky reply as a result, ergo this caveat) but it looks good. in any case its about time someone actually looked at the rules before spouting off about how they work. Best yet, being humble enough to ask if they got it! Well done (and if I or others are wrong, please folk, be kind).

cheers

Edited February 8, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 6/21/2020 at 9:00 AM, claycle said:

Let us suppose a player has Fear (Dragons) as a passion and the player is confronted by a dragon.

The player wishes his character to attack the dragon. The Fear passion is relatively strong (75). Would you...

 

2. Would you have the player have an inner contest, pitting some Rune or Passion against his Fear (Dragons) passion to attack the dragon?

 

I don't claim to know which is the "correct" way to handle it, but i will tell you that recently in play option 2 was what I did because 2 seemed the obvious way to handle it.  Both the fear and the rune got ordinary successes, seemed roughly in balance,  and so my character fought with a projectile weapon but did not move forward until someone else led the way, an event which I interpreted as an additional motivation.  And then threw a javelin, did not charge to melee but instead received the attack.

[David Scott]

Just like in Pendragon, passions and runes are guidelines on how adventurers act. Only at 80% can a GM force them to act by getting the to roll a passion.

On 6/21/2020 at 3:00 PM, claycle said:

Let us suppose a player has Fear (Dragons) as a passion and the player is confronted by a dragon.

The player wishes his character to attack the dragon. The Fear passion is relatively strong (75). Would you...

75% is not a strong passion, the player is still in full control. I would always suggest that players use their passions as to how their adventurer would react. So:

1. ask the player if they have fear Dragons, if so ask them looking at it's value, what do they want to do. In the above case 3/4 of the time they will act fearful, 1/4 not. What do they do now in this situation? It's entirely up to the player what to do confront their fear or maybe run.
2. If they don't know how to react, I alway suggest they make a roll themselves. Then act based on that.
3. If they decide to act, attacking the dragon and win, I'd give them a check on their fear dragons - the understanding being that they can reduce the value or just let them reduce it there and then, either roll a die or i'd give them an amount based on their actions.
4. If they run (or what ever) i'd give them a check, so it can go up.

I do have players who do option 2, with honour, or what ever is appropriate, however it's much more "dangerous" as you have two dice to roll and so more chance of it going wrong and mixing it altogether. Pitting a rune against a passion is not a trivial use of a rune.

[Bill the barbarian]

4 minutes ago, David Scott said:

75% is not a strong passion, the player is still in full control. I would always suggest that players use their passions as to how their adventurer would react. So:

1. ask the player if they have fear Dragons, if so ask them looking at it's value, what do they want to do. In the above case 3/4 of the time they will act fearful, 1/4 not. What do they do now in this situation? It's entirely up to the player what to do confront their fear or maybe run.
2. If they don't know how to react, I alway suggest they make a roll themselves. Then act based on that.
3. If they decide to act, attacking the dragon and win, I'd give them a check on their fear dragons - the understanding being that they can reduce the value or just let them reduce it there and then, either roll a die or i'd give them an amount based on their actions.
4. If they run (or what ever) i'd give them a check, so it can go up.

I do have players who do option 2, with honour, or what ever is appropriate, however it's much more "dangerous" as you have two dice to roll and so more chance of it going wrong and mixing it altogether. Pitting a rune against a passion is not a trivial use of a rune.

Thank your confirming I have played this correctly (phew)!

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

If they decide to act, attacking the dragon and win, I'd give them a check on their fear dragons - the understanding being that they can reduce the value or just let them reduce it there and then, either roll a die or i'd give them an amount based on their actions.

I think this is the key element that ties everything together : sure, players are free to act the way they want below 80%, but that opens them up to later decrease their Passions, which means they become less useful for augmenting stuff. Passions are both guidelines and tools.... if you don't follow the guidelines, you don't get to use the tool.

Note that the XP check needs to specify which way the Passion will go! (it could either decrease because they acted against it, or increase because they got inspired by it!)

When faced with similar mechanics in other game systems, my players are generally happy to roll themselves without me even asking (a mix of option 1 and 2). I think this is because they like rolling dice, they like using everything that's written on their character sheet (especially if that gives them an XP check, which a successful Passion/Rune inspiration roll gives you), and they don't like having to make decisions for themselves  

By the way, I'm curious how people use Fear Inspiration in game? OTOH I would:

1. Use Fear (Dragons) to help flee from a Dragon (Jump/Climb/CONx5/etc.), hide from a Dragon (Hide/Move Quietly/etc.), maybe protect someone from a Dragon (any combat skill used for defending that person), and generally speaking getting away from the Dragon.
2. Use Fear (Dragons) to fight the dragon once all other avenues of escape have been tried and failed.

Basically, flight or fight, in this order.

This is how I'd say it differs from Hate (Dragons), which is almost the opposite, as it would be used to do nothing else than attack and exterminate the Dragon (attacking, jumping on top of it, climbing to reach it at the top of the cliff, etc.)

Edited February 8, 2021 by lordabdul

[Akhôrahil]

21 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

This is how I'd say it differs from Hate (Dragons), which is almost the opposite, 

One of my favorite things ever in Glorantha was the clan questionnaire where depending on what you chose, you could get Fear Dragons, Fear Dragons, Fear Dragons, or Hate & Fear Dragons... 🙂

[jajagappa]

30 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Fear Dragons, Fear Dragons, Fear Dragons, or Hate & Fear Dragons...

Fear and Loathing in Dragon Pass? 😉

[Akhôrahil]

10 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Fear and Loathing in Dragon Pass? 😉

“We can’t stop here, this is Crimson Bat country!”