Was Argrath a hero or a villain?

[Akhôrahil]

It drives me crazy that we have only some vague ideas (from LoT, p. 11) what happens after this. Oddi kills Ralzakark, and then years later kills him again (”final death”, which is difficult to reconcile with Ralzakark later running the Monster Empire). After this, Talastar seems to disappear from history, and I don’t think we have any idea when, where or even why Ralzakark with the Scorpion Arm fights Argrath and Harrek (where in the chronology would this fit?).

Also, the Oddi conversation has one important element that might be missed - you can be Illuminated without realising it (at least for a while).

Edited July 25, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

7 minutes ago, Gallowglass said:

He’s an enlightened monster who terrifies the world, and draws his power from mystical knowledge. 

One of the cool things about Ravana is how honorable he is, even as an enemy. I feel a giant discussion could be had about whether Ralzakark is (not here, though).

[Sir_Godspeed]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

One of the cool things about Ravana is how honorable he is, even as an enemy. I feel a giant discussion could be had about whether Ralzakark is (not here, though).

I'm getting major "Majored In Western Hypocrisy" vibes from the Unicorn Emperor, at least. As in, he learnt the "civilized" ways, but he knows that this entails assassination, political manipulation, etc.

[Akhôrahil]

52 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I'm getting major "Majored In Western Hypocrisy" vibes from the Unicorn Emperor, at least. As in, he learnt the "civilized" ways, but he knows that this entails assassination, political manipulation, etc.

I do imagine he follows a personal code - you can probably trust his word. Most of the time.

It’s just that this code also allows all kinds of atrocities.

(Which isn’t exactly unique among honor codes, it must be added...)

Edited July 25, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

I do imagine he follows a personal code - you can probably trust his word.

Yes, of course you can.

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

It’s just that this code also allows all kinds of atrocities.

The Moon Burn wasn't an atrocity? Ralzakark offered sanctuary to its refugee survivors.

The rape of Dorasta wasn't an atrocity? Ralzakark healed Dorasta's wounds and reinvigorated a blasted land.

Turning the Mad Sultan and his followers insane wasn't an atrocity? Ralzakark gave them refuge and stops them from harming anyone else.

Far more atrocities were done to Ralzakark's followers than by them.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

On 7/23/2020 at 12:54 AM, Martin said:

Despite of Jeff's request that this thread is not about Illumination , still it carries on as that so i am reposting my question so it doesnt get buried:

I ponder about the reactions of  those big players (King Broyan, Samastina, and others)  in  the Dragon Pass and Esrolia areas to Argrath (and Harrrek) when  the latter pair arrive back from the circumnavigation voyage.

Are they feared? (surely in  the case of Harrek) respected, are current leaders beguilded by Argrath? does he come as a liberator to aid King Broyan or to replace him?

This is a good question.  I think it is up to your campaign to decide how your leaders and players react.

To me (the earth person me), Leika is a hugely responsible, intelligent, thoughtful, yet determined protector of her Tribe.  Even my "Kallyr-fan-girl" Vingan PC now greatly respects Leika's slower, less dramatic approach.  Yet she's not blood of Sartar, she can't pull the sword from the Stone.

This strange man with awesome powers arrives as "Liberator", in company with a Homicidal Trickster, a Psychopathic mass-murderer Pirate, and (some time later) a "destroy cities, back to farming and herding" Praxian who would fit in with the Khmer Rouge.  He plans to make them all look like misbehaving Boy Scouts when he releases Genghis Khan from Hell.

He promises victory - no more nice guys finishing last, he will fight just as dirty as them.  "I alone can fix this". 

When Sartar follows this creep, maybe they deserve what they get.  (Yes, some real world politics has changed my view of Argrath...)

 

[John Biles]

On 7/23/2020 at 2:54 AM, Martin said:

Despite of Jeff's request that this thread is not about Illumination , still it carries on as that so i am reposting my question so it doesnt get buried:

I ponder about the reactions of  those big players (King Broyan, Samastina, and others)  in  the Dragon Pass and Esrolia areas to Argrath (and Harrrek) when  the latter pair arrive back from the circumnavigation voyage.

Are they feared? (surely in  the case of Harrek) respected, are current leaders beguilded by Argrath? does he come as a liberator to aid King Broyan or to replace him?

Most people's initial response to Argath is going to be 'who' until he does stuff.  Later, people in Sartar won't care that Argath basically can't go five minutes without death and destruction because it's aimed at people they don't like.  

They're likely to assume Harrek's arrival is the universe trying to kick Dragon Pass while it's down.

The day Harrek leaves and doesn't come back is probably celebrated as a holiday.

 

17 hours ago, Darius West said:

A fair assessment.

Yeah, it is a bit like that.  Beat Pot is a less-than-sympathetic character for that reason.  Who knows what Jar-Eel sees in him.  I think it expresses a huge deficit in her character that she takes him as a lover.

That is a very jaundiced reading of those characters.  They are both aware of the terrible dangers that illumination represents.  The whole notion that chaos is somehow okay is fundamentally flawed as an idea, and the license to riot that illumination represents is something that a person with a conscience should oppose, even if they are illuminated.  As for fighting a genocidal chaos worshiping empire, that seems like an ugly but utterly necessary duty for all living things in Glorantha as far as I am concerned.  Chaos is the death of the world, with no reincarnation.

 

There is zero proof that slaughtering everything that moves in Peloria was the only solution to the Lunar Empire or the best one.

I inherently distrust and disbelieve any 'the ends justify the means' argument.

So I am unconvinced that unleashing endless death and destruction was the only solution to either of these problems.

 

[Darius West]

On 7/26/2020 at 3:00 PM, John Biles said:

There is zero proof that slaughtering everything that moves in Peloria was the only solution to the Lunar Empire or the best one.  I inherently distrust and disbelieve any 'the ends justify the means' argument.  So I am unconvinced that unleashing endless death and destruction was the only solution to either of these problems.

Ultimately the slaughter of Peloria is a mass Hero Quest.  Orlanth killing Yelm... A lot.  But seriously, by the time the slaughtering gets going in earnest the Lunars have devolved into the monster empire, and likely Argrath is getting the blame for the "Lunar" Empire imploding.  Remember that the Lunars would "mainly" try to avoid feeding their citizens to the Crimson Bat...Mainly.  I take the situation of the destruction of Peloria as being very similar to the way the Roman historians blamed the Visigoths and the Vandals for sacking Rome, when in fact it was the Romans themselves who sacked their city, hauling down and selling public amenities and fixtures in order to pay the latest tribute to Atilla.  By the time the Visigoths and Vandals showed up, Rome was a shadow of itself by its own hand.

[Darius West]

On 7/25/2020 at 9:53 PM, Akhôrahil said:

First, not all of them dedicate their entire existence to it. Second, while I’m sure they would like to see the LE destroyed, their real priority is their freedom from it (I don’t imagine Kallyr’s goal was to bring it down, for instance). Very few would think destroying the world to bring the Lunars down with it would be a great idea.

If Argrath were only devoted to destroying the Lunar Empire he would never have taken the time to court and marry the Feathered Horse Queen.  As to what Kallyr's long term aims were, why do you suppose that they were so very different to Argrath's?  She wanted to restore Sartar, but really could Sartar be restored as an independent and sovereign power while the Lunar Empire still exists?  Probably not, given the determination of the Lunars to kill Orlanth and subjugate Sartar at all costs.  Do we ever hear of the Lunars seeking a long term peaceful settlement with Sartar or Argrath's Empire in Dragon Pass?  No.  I also hold to the notion that Argrath IS the genuine reincarnation of Arkat, and his destiny to destroy the Lunars is every bit as important as Arkat's destruction of the Bright Empire for the sake of Glorantha.  Most, if not all Empires in Glorantha eventually try their hand at creating a new deity, run afoul of the great Compromise and unleash their nemesis which destroys them.  Does this make the nemesis a villain, or is the true villainy ever with the hubristic ambition of the God makers?

[The God Learner]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

But seriously, by the time the slaughtering gets going in earnest the Lunars have devolved into the monster empire, and likely Argrath is getting the blame for the "Lunar" Empire imploding. 

It might well be that the Lunar population then by and large had amassed chaos features and so had literally become an empire of monsters, krjalki.

 

[Akhôrahil]

23 minutes ago, Darius West said:

If Argrath were only devoted to destroying the Lunar Empire he would never have taken the time to court and marry the Feathered Horse Queen. 

You don’t think being King of Dragon Pass helps with fighting the Lunars? The political power that brings is why he does it.

23 minutes ago, Darius West said:

but really could Sartar be restored as an independent and sovereign power while the Lunar Empire still exists? 

Supposedly yes? Not all conflicts end in total extermination of one side.

23 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Do we ever hear of the Lunars seeking a long term peaceful settlement with Sartar or Argrath's Empire in Dragon Pass?  No. 

Not while they were winning, unsurprisingly. The Good Empire strikes me as a reasonable partner for drawing up a peace with, though. 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

20 minutes ago, The God Learner said:

It might well be that the Lunar population then by and large had amassed chaos features and so had literally become an empire of monsters, krjalki.

I think the extremely partisan source would have gone out of its way to mention that...

[The God Learner]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

gone out of its way to mention that

Well, "Monster Empire" is enough of a hint for me. 

Not to mention, where there's Nysalor, there's krjalki. Cults of Terror, p.86. (First Age Nysalor.)

Quote

Some areas widely supported such dark prophets, and the people took up the secrets of this new faith. In this way  terrifying cities of undead grew, whose living populations merely masked the existence of their vampire lords. Ancient horrors were discovered and re-established, such as the Thanatar complex in Ralios. Everywhere people cheerfully sprouted chaotic features and became krjalki.

('Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course.') So why would it be different this time around? If anything, Red Goddess is a decidedly less stable and more chaotic version of Nysalor.

Sidebar: there is more interesting, or damning, information in the surrounding passage but I'll leave that for another time.

[Darius West]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

You don’t think being King of Dragon Pass helps with fighting the Lunars? The political power that brings is why he does it. 

Yes, there is power involved, but to assume the continuation of war was the only reason would be very uncharitable.  It is like telling someone that they are only marrying for sex or for money.  Such a claim makes a lot of pretty simplistic and insulting assumptions.  One might view the marriage as a way of hopefully securing peace in the region, for example.  A way of seeking to end the Hero Wars, while guaranteeing that there was now a confederation strong enough to face off against the Lunars, including the former Holy Country, Maniria, Prax, Sartar and the rest of Dragon Pass and its various principalities.    Such a territory could actually bring enough resources to bear to maintain a true peace, and properly threaten the Lunars if they chose to break the treaty.  

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Supposedly yes? Not all conflicts end in total extermination of one side.

I would suggest that this is untrue, because Sartar in its 1602 form, and Sartar under Kallyr was territorially too small to ever be able to stand against the Empire.  Sartar simply could never bring enough resources to bear to more than temporarily halt the onslaught of the Lunars.  Sartar wins its freedom as a side effect of the Long Winter and the Dragonrise, with Pennel Fields being a secondary contributor as someone would probably move to fill the power vacuum.

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

.Not while they were winning, unsurprisingly. The Good Empire strikes me as a reasonable partner for drawing up a peace with, though. 

You missed the illuminated joke.  A "good empire" is an oxymoron and a contradiction like "ignorance is power".

Edited July 27, 2020 by Darius West

[Eff]

"Sartar could never bring enough resources to bear to more than temporarily halt the onslaught of the Lunars"

And yet Talastar and Brolia remain politically independent, with the only demand placed on them by the Lunars being a pro forma expression of religious conversion. Rather strange, that. 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Eff said:

And yet Talastar and Brolia remain politically independent, with the only demand placed on them by the Lunars being a pro forma expression of religious conversion. Rather strange, that. 

Economic and/or magical resources.  Dragon Pass gets you to the Holy Country and sea routes beyond.  Talastar gets you to... the Rockwoods.  Perhaps if there was any hope of taking Dorastor and securing a route to Ralios, this might have been considered, but the embassy to Ralzakark probably proved the pointlessness of that.  More important is the route down the Janube to at least the Arrolian Properties - the Red Emperor clearly focuses on this in the 1640s.  

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Economic and/or magical resources.  Dragon Pass gets you to the Holy Country and sea routes beyond.  Talastar gets you to... the Rockwoods.  Perhaps if there was any hope of taking Dorastor and securing a route to Ralios, this might have been considered, but the embassy to Ralzakark probably proved the pointlessness of that.  More important is the route down the Janube to at least the Arrolian Properties - the Red Emperor clearly focuses on this in the 1640s.  

The Red Emperor's interests in Talastar are radically different from those in Dragon Pass. So different as to be almost the opposite.

[Eff]

Just now, jajagappa said:

Economic and/or magical resources.  Dragon Pass gets you to the Holy Country and sea routes beyond.  Talastar gets you to... the Rockwoods.  Perhaps if there was any hope of taking Dorastor and securing a route to Ralios, this might have been considered, but the embassy to Ralzakark probably proved the pointlessness of that.  More important is the route down the Janube to at least the Arrolian Properties - the Red Emperor clearly focuses on this in the 1640s.  

Sure, but that contravenes the notion that Sartar can't possibly stand against the Empire solely because it's small, rather than because it's a small, historically hostile polity sitting directly on the pathway to Karse and Nochet. Which is something that could theoretically be dealt with by statecraft (even if that statecraft would be so unpleasant as to make it an impractical option) as opposed to a Lunar Empire that is solely concerned with domination and conquest and thus must necessarily be opposed by assembling a plucky confederation of heroic states and chiefdoms etc etc. 

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

You missed the illuminated joke.  A "good empire" is an oxymoron and a contradiction like "ignorance is power".

One strong theory is that the Good Empire is the breakaway Lunar provinces. Those are both the best part of the empire and small enough that they can be balanced against Argrath’s significant power block (perhaps not perfectly, but enough that both sides could have an interest in peace).

We will presumably never know how it would have gone had they tried it.

(The Good Empire as Glorantha’s version of the Gallic Empire?)

Edited July 27, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

The Red Emperor's interests in Talastar are radically different from those in Dragon Pass. So different as to be almost the opposite.

Talastar is also mostly pacified, at least until Oddi. The economy is bad, the Lunars get some taxes, the Orlanthi get to worship as long as they don’t cause any trouble, Talastar makes for a buffer against a Ralzakark, and after White Shirt Day, the Lunars can tell themselves the whole place is Lunarized and technically part of the empire. Outside of religious fervour, there is little reason to fight for either side.

Post-Oddi, I have no idea. 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

More important is the route down the Janube to at least the Arrolian Properties - the Red Emperor clearly focuses on this in the 1640s.  

Economically and politically, this makes a lot more sense, too - the initial advance is into already lunarized areas, and the Janube is such a better way to the sea that it’s not even a contest.

The drive into Dragon Pass mostly makes sense from a magical and religious perspective - it’s how the struggle against Orlanth was supposed to be won. (And of course there’s the fact that the Ban didn’t allow a proper westward expansion for the longest time.)

[Rodney Dangerduck]

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

One might view the marriage as a way of hopefully securing peace in the region, for example.  A way of seeking to end the Hero Wars, while guaranteeing that there was now a confederation strong enough to face off against the Lunars, including the former Holy Country, Maniria, Prax, Sartar and the rest of Dragon Pass and its various principalities.    Such a territory could actually bring enough resources to bear to maintain a true peace, and properly threaten the Lunars if they chose to break the treaty. 

This makes wonderful sense.  Think Argrath (and, to be fair, the Emperor) will agree with you?

Edited July 27, 2020 by Rodney Dangerduck

[EricW]

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

Yes, there is power involved, but to assume the continuation of war was the only reason would be very uncharitable.  It is like telling someone that they are only marrying for sex or for money.  Such a claim makes a lot of pretty simplistic and insulting assumptions.  One might view the marriage as a way of hopefully securing peace in the region, for example.  A way of seeking to end the Hero Wars, while guaranteeing that there was now a confederation strong enough to face off against the Lunars, including the former Holy Country, Maniria, Prax, Sartar and the rest of Dragon Pass and its various principalities.    Such a territory could actually bring enough resources to bear to maintain a true peace, and properly threaten the Lunars if they chose to break the treaty.  

There is strong supporting evidence Argrath wanted peace, in King of Sartar at one stage Argrath went to extreme lengths to avoid direct confrontation, and refrained from destroying the Lunar army when he likely could have.

Quote

 

...

At that time King Argrath was courting the Queen of Holay88 for marriage. Some people objected to his polygamy, but the women from Esrolia would have said it was acceptable. The Queen told him that he had to do two things to earn her love and respect. He had to defend her from the Empire, and he had to find some way which would not destroy her queendom through war. If he did those, then she would learn to love him.

...

Argrath went to the Queen and he asked what he should do. “There is always another way,” she said to him95.

Argrath asked his Companions for advice, and they said that if they could not fight, they should flee, for certainly the Red Emperor would not suspend this feud96 simply because Argrath wouldn’t fight. But Argrath would not desert his home to the invaders. Every day Argrath and a companion would board his magic chariot, and they would raid and taunt the Red Emperor’s army. That way Argrath drew his many foes after him, and out of the Queen’s lands.

...

Jar‐eel and her household learned where Argrath’s beloved queen lived, and they went there and surrounded her house, and pierced it with their spears. But the queen escaped, hiding in a pit in the ground. The Lunars then set fire to the house to burn her to death.100 Argrath saw the plume of smoke. He decided then, that he would have to lay aside his desire for peace in order to save his wife. He hesitated one moment, asking Ernalda for guidance. Then the deeds of his past helped him then, and prevented him breaking his vow.

When he had been young Argrath once aided some giants101, and they had never forgotten his help. They had also seen the smoke, and they rushed to help their friend.

All three kinds of giants came to help, and the Lunar Army was ready to fight them. Jar‐ eel especially was eager to slice her foe, and to sing them to death. But when she saw Argrath, who was refusing to fight because of love, she was struck with awe, and remembered her own lover back at camp. She then lusted for him more than she had lusted to kill Argrath, and went to camp to take him. Then the giants attacked the Lunar Army, and it was called the Battle of Gargantuans. Argrath then sowed the Dragontooth Runners. No humans could stand before them, and the Lunar Army was driven away.

...

 

 

Edited July 27, 2020 by EricW

[Nick Brooke]

14 hours ago, The God Learner said:

It might well be that the Lunar population then by and large had amassed chaos features and so had literally become an empire of monsters, krjalki.

Just when you think the other side can’t stoop any lower with their dehumanising arguments, this nonsense pops up. “Yeah. All the kids in that school my hero shot up? They were all evil mutants, soulless abominations and devil-children.”

*Sure* they were...

[metcalph]

One thing that bugs me about all this is that you are taking Argath's claims at face value.  From a Saga which claims that Argrath rescued Hofstaring Treeleaper and summoned Wyverns to Corflu, using it as evidence for Argrath slaughtering everybody in Peloria is rather unwise.