Myths About... Doburdan, Jajagappa, and Durbadath

[Bohemond]

Are there any myths known about Doburdan, Jajagappa (the god, not the member of this forum), or Durbadath (the Pelorian lion god)?

Edited September 19, 2020 by Scotty
Clarified thread title

[jajagappa]

15 minutes ago, Bohemond said:

Doburdan

Not that I recall, and given the general excision of Doburdan from canon, probably won't be any.

15 minutes ago, Bohemond said:

Durbadath (the Pelorian lion god)

Maybe.  The Gods Wall is a starting point.  See GRoY p.49 for the entry about the Lion and p.62 about Durbaddath (he was beheaded by Yelm - clearly a myth about rivals)

Also Anaxial's Roster p.86 (and see p.87 too): In ancient Peloria, Durbaddath was a foe of Sakkar, the Saber-toothed God of Fear. He also resisted Emperor Mashunasan, along with many others. Hunted, trapped, and cursed, he nonetheless escaped his pursuers, but finally his children were all taken into slavery. Durbaddath freed them by surrendering and serving his captor. He served Emperor Urvairinus so loyally that the lion once bore the scepter of imperial power; his sons were regimental leaders, and his daughters were progenitors of heroic grandsons. When Urvairinus died, however, Durbaddath revolted, and was afterwards treated as a wild animal and the father of slaves. Lions were hunted nearly to extinction throughout Peloria.

23 minutes ago, Bohemond said:

Jajagappa (the god, not the member of this forum)

Summon me, and I appear! 😉 Yes, there are myths but they are mostly in my personal collection from when I was developing them with Greg in the 90's as background for the Verenmars Saga, the Jannisor stories, and the Imther Pak. (There is a reason why I use that forum name!)

There are very short references in GRoY and in the Redline History of the Lunar Empire, First Wane (in WF 10, Glorantha Sourcebook, & one of the old AH Heroes issues).

He's mostly worshipped by the Dog Servants of Saird.  He's a psychopomp there and leads souls to the Underworld (and his worshipers prepare corpses and bury the dead - e.g. dogs burying the bones).  His net can ensnare even powerful gods and drag them into Hell - i.e. his net helped pull Yelm back to Hell after the Sunstop.  He's also the Father of the Dog Gods, e.g. Rowdril the War God/Dog of Saird that aided King Verenmars.  He can send his pack of hounds off to tear apart souls - when they do so, you cannot resurrect the dead, because their soul has been torn into shreds (and devoured by different hounds, of course), unless you can find, free, and release all the soul parts.  The Lost Rocks of the Sky may be Jajagappa's pack when it appears there - it was prominent when Jannisor lived, but has been rare since.

He's a god of Darkness, Death, and Fate (in the famed Jannisor vase picture he wields the sword and the net).  Two of his names are: the Bone Planter and the Hunter of Secrets. His net was also used to help pull together all the parts of the broken world.

While I do have a cult writeup, that's a piece I'm saving for a Jonstown Compendium work.

 

 

[Bohemond]

Do you by any chance have a myth about Jajagappa that would a make a good quest? I need some non-Heortling quests for my upcoming Glorantha campaign LARP, so I'm looking around to see what I have to work with. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

12 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

given the general excision of Doburdan from canon

who is Doburdan in the myths, Entekos? Is His name in Lunar Storm territories just an empty placeholder for Orlanth?

[g33k]

22 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

who is Doburdan in the myths, Entekos? Is His name in Lunar Storm territories just an empty placeholder for Orlanth?

... sort of (?)

ish ... 

https://glorantha.fandom.com/wiki/Doburdun  

https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/HeroQuestRPG/6022.html

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/prosopaedia/deities/d/doburdun-the-loyal-storm/     &     https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/glorantha-2/cultures/orlanthi-overview/enemy-gods-of-the-orlanthi/

[Brian McReynolds]

There's also an unofficial cult write-up for Doburdun on the 'Brown Book of Zzabur' website, though it's for Heroquest Glorantha, which means it's rules-lite and mostly lord.

I'd post a link, but my Google-Fu skills are still at the yellow-belt stage. 🙃

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

who is Doburdan in the myths, Entekos? Is His name in Lunar Storm territories just an empty placeholder for Orlanth?

GRoY makes him out as the Darsenite thunder god.

[Sir_Godspeed]

I always saw him as the Pelorian, somewhat "disarmed" version of Orlanth, or really any Storm God.

[Eff]

If I were using Doburdun for anything, I would just change the names in Hedkoranth or associated Thunder Brother myths. I think that works better for his highly specialized focus on thunder and service to a broader deity of storm/air. 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

I'm giving this a negative "confused" icon for the clickbait title.  Why not put the full question in the title?  Then we could choose whether to click or not.

[Sir_Godspeed]

49 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I'm giving this a negative "confused" icon for the clickbait title.  Why not put the full question in the title?  Then we could choose whether to click or not.

Takes you literally 3 seconds to check and leave the thread.

[Minlister]

Ah, Jajagappa is also a favourite of mine!!!

@jajagappa

Quote

His net can ensnare even powerful gods and drag them into Hell - i.e. his net helped pull Yelm back to Hell after the Sunstop.  He's also the Father of the Dog Gods, e.g. Rowdril the War God/Dog of Saird that aided King Verenmars.  He can send his pack of hounds off to tear apart souls - when they do so, you cannot resurrect

I use a slightly more benign version: Jajagappa tears the soul from the dead flesh, but then, keeping it in its maw, he runs to the Courts of Silence, effectively protecting the souls from interception attempts by all sorts of demons along the way. A little bit like a hunting dog bringing back dead fowl to the hunter.

[David Scott]

12 hours ago, Bohemond said:

Are there any myths known about Doburdan,

No, we know little apart from what Darsten Black Oak reveals in the Sartar Companion, page 58. A treacherous Pelorian Storm God. Clearly a tiny aspect of Orlanth that was beaten by Pelorian mythology (where Orlanth won, Doburdan lost). His  RQG would likely give a single rune spell - Thunderbolt,

12 hours ago, Bohemond said:

Jajagappa

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/?s=Jajagappa

12 hours ago, Bohemond said:

Durbadath (the Pelorian lion god)?

Hero Wars said:

Quote

Durbadath

Durbadath is the lion god of Dara Happa, and also an ancestor of many of the lower class. Durbadath was conquered by Yelm and/or Lodril, who then made a place of honor for the conquered god to serve the royalty of Dara Happa. Since then lions and Dara Happan royalty have always been associated, and this cult has revealed its Solar and Imperial connections. During the Darkness Durbadath’s feats and knowledge kept many people in Dara Happa alive, and many discovered their own lion selves through worshipping him.

Durbadath & Basmol are masks of the Lion god (As Bisos & Storm Bull are masks of the Bull god)

[Akhôrahil]

13 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I always saw him as the Pelorian, somewhat "disarmed" version of Orlanth, or really any Storm God.

Yeah, he seems to be their "tamed" storm. One interpretation rules-wise could be that it's a seriously crippled and ineffectual Orlanth cult with lots of the goodies taken away.

[Akhôrahil]

6 hours ago, Minlister said:

Ah, Jajagappa is also a favourite of mine!!!

@jajagappa

I use a slightly more benign version: Jajagappa tears the soul from the dead flesh, but then, keeping it in its maw, he runs to the Courts of Silence, effectively protecting the souls from interception attempts by all sorts of demons along the way. A little bit like a hunting dog bringing back dead fowl to the hunter.

I'm inclined to agree - I'm sure he can tear people's souls apart, but he's their psychopomp, right? He wouldn't be doing a very good job if he didn't bring the souls into the underworld in a mostly safe manner! 

[jajagappa]

33 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I'm inclined to agree - I'm sure he can tear people's souls apart, but he's their psychopomp, right? He wouldn't be doing a very good job if he didn't bring the souls into the underworld in a mostly safe manner! 

It depends on whose souls you are talking about!  For his worshippers, of course he guides and protects them on their way to the Underworld.

In DH, Yelm likely calls upon Jajagappa to rend and destroy the souls of his foes, and bury their parts where they cannot be found.  And the Red Goddess, I believe, has adopted him as well. As the text for the vase painting notes: "Jajagapa is a borrowed/adopted deity from the Dara Happan pantheon, and is the armed psychopompous of the underworld . He has the ability to go and fight the souls of the powerful Dead, and drag even great magicians to Death . His net is crowded with less powerful souls."

He brings souls to the Underworld, but some are brought kicking, screaming, cursing, and invoking whatever magic they can - they are still brought to Hell!

[jajagappa]

18 hours ago, Bohemond said:

Do you by any chance have a myth about Jajagappa that would a make a good quest? I need some non-Heortling quests for my upcoming Glorantha campaign LARP, so I'm looking around to see what I have to work with. 

I guess it depends a bit on what sort of quest???  Here's a few potential ideas:

• It's nice that Orlanth wants to restore the Sun, and Yelm has agreed to return, but there's a problem - he's not got all his parts!  Jajagappa goes to find them and bring them all back.
• The wizards have refused to go join Ty Kora Tek in her Court of Silence claiming they are more than human and not answerable to Death.  She calls upon Jajagappa to go and bring them to her.  Of course, they've locked themselves up in the Tower of Dusk and won't leave.  (This could be varied to any number of deities.)
• Yinkin and his shadowcats have been hunting in Velhara's sacred grove and terrorizing and killing her favorite animals!  She calls upon Jajagappa to drive out Yinkin.  (This is of course the real reason why Orlanth later finds Narangros, likely a mask/name for Jajagappa, in Yinkin's halls.) - There's a variant of this where Mastakos tries to avoid Death by continually leaping away.  Humakt can't catch the moving god, so he calls upon Jajagappa to bring Death to him.  (This is how/why Orlanth later finds/retrieves Mastakos' sinews to renew the latter's powers.)
• A monstrous scorpion has made a desert of part of the sky.  Pole Star and his star captains are unable to stop it, but he has seen the ability of Jajagappa's pack to rend and tear beasts to pieces.  He calls upon Jajagappa to defeat the creature.  (And Jajagappa's pack gains the right to run free in the Sky desert as a result.)
• A deity (Nontraya? Vivamort? some other foe?) has hidden his heart or perhaps a certain bone in a place where it cannot be found so as to avoid Death.  The Ruler of the Underworld (Yelm, Ty Kora Tek, Deshkorgos, or whichever) wants that deity brought to Justice.  Jajagappa must search out and uncover the bone, thus breaking the deity's connection to the world.

 

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by jajagappa

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, Minlister said:

I use a slightly more benign version

One thing that I tend to emphasize with Jajagappa is that he is not the Dog God.  He's not Brother Dog, or Rowdril, or Ensoval, or Erindamus the southern Jumper, or any of the other myriad dog gods (who are generally benign and friendly to men and serve as their helpers).  He's father to them, but is much darker, more primitive, and could well be considered demonic by many.  He's there in the midst of battle, gathering souls into his net; he's there in the country lane or the meadow or the mountain pass, sending his pack in pursuit of the lone traveler; and he's sniffing around in the village consumed by disease, seizing those souls as well.  He's the Enforcer of Death (and of course hostile to those undead and ghosts that try to avoid the path to the Underworld).

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by jajagappa

[Bohemond]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I guess it depends a bit on what sort of quest???  Here's a few potential ideas:

• It's nice that Orlanth wants to restore the Sun, and Yelm has agreed to return, but there's a problem - he's not got all his parts!  Jajagappa goes to find them and bring them all back.
• The wizards have refused to go join Ty Kora Tek in her Court of Silence claiming they are more than human and not answerable to Death.  She calls upon Jajagappa to go and bring them to her.  Of course, they've locked themselves up in the Tower of Dusk and won't leave.  (This could be varied to any number of deities.)
• Yinkin and his shadowcats have been hunting in Velhara's sacred grove and terrorizing and killing her favorite animals!  She calls upon Jajagappa to drive out Yinkin.  (This is of course the real reason why Orlanth later finds Narangros, likely a mask/name for Jajagappa, in Yinkin's halls.) - There's a variant of this where Mastakos tries to avoid Death by continually leaping away.  Humakt can't catch the moving god, so he calls upon Jajagappa to bring Death to him.  (This is how/why Orlanth later finds/retrieves Mastakos' sinews to renew the latter's powers.)
• A monstrous scorpion has made a desert of part of the sky.  Pole Star and his star captains are unable to stop it, but he has seen the ability of Jajagappa's pack to rend and tear beasts to pieces.  He calls upon Jajagappa to defeat the creature.  (And Jajagappa's pack gains the right to run free in the Sky desert as a result.)
• A deity (Nontraya? Vivamort? some other foe?) has hidden his heart or perhaps a certain bone in a place where it cannot be found so as to avoid Death.  The Ruler of the Underworld (Yelm, Ty Kora Tek, Deshkorgos, or whichever) wants that deity brought to Justice.  Jajagappa must search out and uncover the bone, thus breaking the deity's connection to the world.

 

 

Thanks for all the good info here! There's definitely some good stuff I can use. 

[Bohemond]

Here's a myth I just wrote based on that info. 

Jajagappa and the Sorcerers 

 

The Ruler of the Underworld summoned Jajagappa and told him “Ameshkurgos, the ruler of the Tower of Logic, has declared that he and his followers are above humanity and not answerable to Death. He has fought my other servants, who cannot kill them, and  has put the Tower somewhere unknown and  denies that they must come to my kingdom and be my subjects. This I will not permit. Go, my faithful servant, find them, and bring them to me for judgment.”

Now Jajagappa has the scent of the living in his nose, and he began to track them across the world. The path took him through the Valley of the Black Hag, who told him that he had no place there and could not pass through her lands. But Jajagappa was undeterred and ignored her demands. She sent her servitors to destroy him, which were neither living nor dead but something else. But Jajagappa howled his howl and summoned his pack to him and they destroyed the servitors utterly. 

Japagappa fell upon the Black Hag and would have torn her soul from her body, but she said, “Wait! If you spare me, I will make you a net that will help you ensnare the souls of the dead.” Jajagappa agreed that this would be useful, and so she took some hair from her own head and wove him the Soul-Catching Net.

He continued to track Ameshkurgos and found the Tower of Logic, which had been placed so high up that no mortal man could even see it, with its top in the Sky. But jajagappa climbed into the Sky and entered the Tower anyway. He fought the followers of Ameshkurgos and slew them and caught their souls in his net. 

Ameshkurgos had thought he was clever. He had taken his soul out of his body and put it in a jar. This meant that no one could kill him. So when he confronted Jajagappa, he laughed because he thought he could not be killed. But Jajagappa followed the scent of his soul to the jar and found it. He took the soul and threw it to his pack, which tore it apart utterly, destroying Ameshkurgos. 

Then he dragged the souls of the followers down to the Underworld and cast them before the Throne of the Dead and forced them to submit to the judgment that all the living must undergo. 

[soltakss]

Doburdan is a minor, useless god, full of hot air and bluster, probably why he is my favourite Gloranthan deity.

His best myth is where he became Ernalda's Husband Protector in the Darkness, but meekly stood aside when Orlanth returned. That describes him perfectly.

[Tindalos]

On 9/18/2020 at 10:40 PM, Brian McReynolds said:

There's also an unofficial cult write-up for Doburdun on the 'Brown Book of Zzabur' website, though it's for Heroquest Glorantha, which means it's rules-lite and mostly lord.

I'd post a link, but my Google-Fu skills are still at the yellow-belt stage. 🙃

Ah yeah, that one. Here.

As for myths about Doburdun, the best source would be the Entekosiad, where he rescues Oria while she's captured by Jagardeen (page 41), and in according with older descriptions of the cult (the one in Barbarian Adventures 23) a nameless appearance on page 52 where he beats up Daak (aka Orlanth).

On the other hand, the cult is described as barely existing in the third age, and not major by the end of the First Age, so not much would be done there for RQ anyway, but that cult write up could be good for anyone running a game in the First Age.

[Minlister]

@jajagappa

Quote

One thing that I tend to emphasize with Jajagappa is that he is not the Dog God.  He's not Brother Dog, or Rowdril, or Ensoval, or Erindamus the southern Jumper, or any of the other myriad dog gods (who are generally benign and friendly to men and serve as their helpers).  He's father to them, but is much darker, more primitive, and could well be considered demonic by many.  He's there in the midst of battle, gathering souls into his net; he's there in the country lane or the meadow or the mountain pass, sending his pack in pursuit of the lone traveler; and he's sniffing around in the village consumed by disease, seizing those souls as well.  He's the Enforcer of Death (and of course hostile to those undead and ghosts that try to avoid the path to the Underworld).

That's a brilliant text! I guess you spent time on this fellow, but still! Impressive! chapeau bas, as we say!

[Jeff]

On 9/18/2020 at 9:29 PM, Bohemond said:

Are there any myths known about Doburdan, Jajagappa (the god, not the member of this forum), or Durbadath (the Pelorian lion god)?

I am not sure Doburdun has much of a cult in the Third Age. He was a Darsenite Thunder God associated with Entekos. By the Third Age, he's probably just a local manifestation of Orlanth or a servant of Entekos.

[M Helsdon]

Jajagappa

The Jajalarings, largely subsumed into the surrounding Orlanthi population, worship Jajagappa as the god of death.

He carries a net he uses to catch any souls that go astray after death, or which have no divine protection, or otherwise are his prey. They are hunted down and shredded, devoured and reshaped to be another hound in his pack. Jajagappa has the ability to fight the souls of the powerful dead, and drag even great magicians to their final Death.

Jajagappa is the sire of Rowdril, the father of war hounds, and for whom the breed is named.

 

Durbaddath

The Lion God of Dara Happa; conquered by Yelm who then made a place of honor for the conquered deity to serve the royalty of Dara Happa. During the Darkness he loyally defended the people of his lord. He served Emperor Urvairinus so faithfully that the Lion bore the scepter of imperial power, and his golden sons led regiments. After the death of the emperor, Durbaddath rebelled, and his sons and their offspring were treated as wild animals and hunted nearly to extinction throughout Peloria.

The Dara Happans claim he is also the father of their god of slaves, Ergesh, and that his human descendants are their rightful thralls.

As Father Lion he is worshiped in Oraya and by the Zarkosings of Jarst and Garsting, and by the Balazarings. These people do not recognize the Dara Happan story of Durbaddath and Ergesh, though their ancestors were often enslaved by Dara Happan raiders. For them, Durbaddath is a warrior god, and the defender of his people.

The Pelandans recognize that he is the hunter aspect of their own Karndasal (who is not Basmol).