High Death Rune and procreation

[Brootse]

Do characters with Death Rune 80% or higher have staunchly-held beliefs against having biological children of their own? P. 237 RuneQuest Roleplaying in Glorantha.

[Beoferret]

You could easily play it that way. Makes mechanical sense and seems appropriately Gloranthan. I'm not sure I'd make that the case in 100% of situations. Maybe those with Death Rune of 80% or higher are either opposed to having their own kids or simply indifferent. I can't see anyone with a high Death Rune being excited about having their own kids (and maybe moving towards wanting kids would act to weaken that character's affinity to Death.)

An add-on question, if ya don't mind: is fertility impaired by a strong association with the Death Rune, even if characters did want to procreate? 

 

[g33k]

17 minutes ago, Beoferret said:

...

An add-on question, if ya don't mind: is fertility impaired by a strong association with the Death Rune, even if characters did want to procreate? 

Certainly IMG this is so.

The Runic associations are what *makes* Glorantha be Glorantha -- and being strong in the Death Rune (80% +) makes one essentially infertile (and I use the word advisedly:  in one's essence).

Biology doesn't exist; it is explicitly false.

(edit:  oh, and to answer the OP's question:  I presume it'd also apply to the personality; that they would not WANT children, nor regret the inability).

Edited October 5, 2020 by g33k

[Brootse]

17 minutes ago, Beoferret said:

An add-on question, if ya don't mind: is fertility impaired by a strong association with the Death Rune, even if characters did want to procreate?

A good question! Mechanically it could be handled so that a character with a high Death Rune would roll an augment, and affect it negatively to the chances to get kids.

[HreshtIronBorne]

This is certainly the way we have played it with Swords of Humakt and such. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

16 hours ago, Beoferret said:

An add-on question, if ya don't mind: is fertility impaired by a strong association with the Death Rune, even if characters did want to procreate? 

sometimes they may procreate, by accident (if their death rune is not at 100% but I don't know what happen with a living person with a 100%death rune)

But about what a person wants :

they are dedicated to death, they cannot want to procreate

they could want to have sexual activities for pleasure, but not to give life.

They could want to have heirs, but not by giving life.

[PhilHibbs]

p462:

Quote

The Childbirth roll may be augmented by the Fertility
Rune, or reduced by the Death Rune (lower the roll by the
amount of a successful augment), as desired by the player.

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

they could want to have sexual activities for pleasure

Technically, even this is dubious.

"To be strong with the Fertility Rune is to enjoy the pleasures of the flesh, most notably sexual desire"

"To be strong with the Death Rune is to separate oneself from the material world and seek to deny or even destroy the world of the senses. Such adventurers are relentless, ruthless, and ascetic..."

However, in our game, we are (currently) not bothering our Humakti (88% Death) and a couple of other fighters at 75% who all enjoy drinking and an occasional (or frequent) roll in the hay.  That seems like too big a penalty, for now.  We are using the Runes and Passions to guide roleplay, not force it.  My PC is the "weird" fighter in the group with high (85%) Fertility.

As for NPCs, the Runes do apply, we've met Nameless, enough said...

Edited October 6, 2020 by Rodney Dangerduck

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Technically, even this is dubious.

"To be strong with the Fertility Rune is to enjoy the pleasures of the flesh, most notably sexual desire"

"To be strong with the Death Rune is to separate oneself from the material world and seek to deny or even destroy the world of the senses. Such adventurers are relentless, ruthless, and ascetic..."

oh I missed it, thanks !

3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

However, in our game, we are (currently) not bothering our Humakti (88% Death) and a couple of other fighters at 75% who all enjoy drinking and an occasional (or frequent) roll in the hay.  That seems like too big a penalty, for now.  We are using the Runes and Passions to guide roleplay, not force it.  My PC is the "weird" fighter in the group with high (85%) Fertility.

depends on gm (and their mistake)

I consider that what player choices must be followed. I don't force them to act when the character does, to sing when the character sings but if they choose to be strong in a rune or a passion, at least a roll against it must be successfull if they decide to move in another way. And if they succeed against their passion / rune, they lost a portion of this passion / rune.

 

 

Edited October 6, 2020 by French Desperate WindChild
typo

[Jape_Vicho]

46 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

depends on gm (and their mistake)

I consider that what player choices must be followed. I don't force them to act when the character does, to sing when the character sing but if tgeychoose to be strong in a rune or a passion, at least a roll against it must be successfull if they decide to move in another way. And if they succeed against their passion / rune, they lost a portion of this passion / rune.

But I think the Death - Fertility rune pair has kind of a problem and is easily misunderstood. Even though there are loads of death rune linked goddesses, for a number of factors (most rooted in our gender-binary thought) people link Death with male and Fertility with female, even though they aren't that simple in reality. 

For exemple, usually a player who wants to be a typical fighter will be attracted to putting points in Death, death is a soldier's job isn't it? But then won't exactly follow what Death should affect one's personality. 

Having a male warrior god linked with the Fertility rune in the books would make this clearer to players, that's one of the reasons I'm anxiously waiting for the Lodril write-up in Gods and Goddesses of Glorantha. 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Jape_Vicho

[Brootse]

9 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said:

But I think the Death - Fertility rune pair has kind of a problem and is easily misunderstood. Even though there are loads of death rune linked goddesses, for a number of factors (most rooted in our gender-binary thought) people link Death with male and Fertility with female, even though they aren't that simple in reality. 

For exemple, usually a player who wants to be a typical fighter will be attracted to putting points in Death, death is a soldier's job isn't it? But then won't exactly follow what Death should affect one's personality. 

Having a male warrior god linked with the Fertility rune in the books would make this clearer to players, that's one of the reasons I'm anxiously waiting for the Lodril write-up in Gods and Goddesses of Glorantha. 

Orlanth is quite fertile, even if he doesn't have the Rune, and he has some Heroquests relating to Fertility.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

I can see Humakt as glum, asexual, ascetic.  Babs Gor as well.

But Storm Bull is also a Death cult, and the primary image one has of a Bull is, well, a large member, whose purpose is to make many babies.  Plus Storm Khans are explicitly allowed to marry and have many concubines.

[Brootse]

20 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I can see Humakt as glum, asexual, ascetic.  Babs Gor as well.

But Storm Bull is also a Death cult, and the primary image one has of a Bull is, well, a large member, whose purpose is to make many babies.  Plus Storm Khans are explicitly allowed to marry and have many concubines.

All of Storm Bull's cult spells can be used without the Death Rune, so maybe most of them have a strong Beast Rune instead?

[Jape_Vicho]

53 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Orlanth is quite fertile, even if he doesn't have the Rune, and he has some Heroquests relating to Fertility.

That is true, but I think an explicit fertility rune in a cult makes things clearer and can make a difference. Also Orlanth is so mythically prolific that you can easily link him with almost any rune. 

39 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I can see Humakt as glum, asexual, ascetic.  Babs Gor as well.

But Storm Bull is also a Death cult, and the primary image one has of a Bull is, well, a large member, whose purpose is to make many babies.  Plus Storm Khans are explicitly allowed to marry and have many concubines.

That's why in my Glorantha Urox is Disorder Air Beast. It's just a personal thing. 

 

Also, in relation with this, and if you don't mind the side-question, what's the deal with Zorak Zoran Death rune? He and his cultists are definetly killers, and good ones at that, but they also reanimate the dead, which should be against the Death rune(?. 

[Akhôrahil]

I told my players that it’s bad If a Humakti’s shadow passes over a pregnant woman. No-one is exactly looking to put it to trial.

And yeah, high death rune should certainly mess with fertility. If could even involve a problem with... performing.

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Jape_Vicho said:

For exemple, usually a player who wants to be a typical fighter will be attracted to putting points in Death, death is a soldier's job isn't it? But then won't exactly follow what Death should affect one's personality. 

sure, but that just means the gm has not explain enough that the death path is really hard to follow (great power, but less possibilities) you can be a warrior from a lot of other gods.

the main issue is clearly Storm Bull, but as said previously, you can be an efficient bull warrior with beast rune (and a bull has a lot of females hasn't it ?)

I think that could be good to have somewhere (player's guide ?) something like "the way of the warrior" :

=> you want to be a warrior, the main possibilities are ..., the advantages and concerns of each choice are ...

Same for "magician", understanding that Orlanth followers can be very strong "battle magicians" is not so obvious

It could help players and new gloranthan gm too

 

[Brootse]

50 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said:

Also, in relation with this, and if you don't mind the side-question, what's the deal with Zorak Zoran Death rune? He and his cultists are definetly killers, and good ones at that, but they also reanimate the dead, which should be against the Death rune(?. 

I think that ZZ's undead are just flesh and bones that are animated, instead of being made with the chaotic methods involving souls. So they're more like golems. And ZZ's worshippers want their corpses animated after death so that they can continue to wreak havoc, so it's somewhat connected to their Disorder Rune, even though their animation spells don't use it. And all their animation spells can be used with the Darkness Rune too. Humakt's worshippers can also create Ghosts, though Ghosts aren't undead, they're properly dead.

[PhilHibbs]

13 hours ago, Brootse said:

I think that ZZ's undead are just flesh and bones that are animated, instead of being made with the chaotic methods involving souls.

I don't think Humakt's objection to undead is related to chaos. He just has a very pure approach to the Death Rune, and sees Undeath as a corruption of that. Undeath is also Hunger, which is another way of looking at it that the Zorak Zorani take. They use Death, and they use Hunger, and they don't see them as being in conflict.

It's like if you have one fire deity that gives Extinguish, through their power over fire, but another fire deity might see Extinguish as being evil.

[soltakss]

Personally, I am not keen on absolutes with regards to runes., so I am not keen on the idea that a high Death Rune means low fertility. It does mean a low Fertility Rune, which also means it is difficult to use the Fertility Rune to boost fertility.

For example, worshippers of Foundchild would be expected to have a high Death Rune, as Foundchild has Death and Harmony as Runes. But, Foundchild's Death rune indicates killing beasts through hunting and giving their souls back to the Great Mother of Prey, so very much part of the Circle of Life. so, a Master Hunter with 90% Death would have that integrated into life, with no real effects on Fertility.

Looking at the RQG Rulebook, the cults described with the Death Rune are: Babeester Gor, Foundchild, Humakt (double), Maran Gor, Seven Mothers, Storm Bull, Waha and Yelm. Of those, Seven Mothers and Yelm also have Fertility, which probably makes them have to choose between Death and Fertility, or to concentrate on different subcults emphasising each Aspect. So, are we saying that Storm Bull, the father of all the Praxian Herd Beasts, and Waha, the father of Praxian Khans, have low fertility due to their Death runes? Khans often have many children, so I would guess that a high Death Rune is not a particular disadvantage. I get it for cults such as Babeester Gor, Maran Gor or Humakt, but that is as much a result of the Deity as of the Rune.

Agimori have a high Fire part of their makeup and have to drink cold water to balance it out to have children. Maybe people with a high Death Rune have to do something similar. Maybe Humakti have to look at pictures of voluptuous women to use their Fertility to counter the Humakti's Death Rune. Jean M. Auel's had an idea in the Earth's children series of books that someone's spirit needed to be strong enough to conquer a someone else's strong spirit to produce a child, so someone with a high Death Rune would need to be conquered by someone else's high Rune in order to produce a child.

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

It's like if you have one fire deity that gives Extinguish, through their power over fire, but another fire deity might see Extinguish as being evil.

Yes, exactly that.

[Kloster]

Exactly my mind. Thanks Soltakss, well said.

[Bill the barbarian]

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

Personally, I am not keen on absolutes with regards to runes., so I am not keen on the idea that a high Death Rune means low fertility. It does mean a low Fertility Rune, which also means it is difficult to use the Fertility Rune to boost fertility.

 

I was having a difficult time wth this topic. How could having a high death rune make one infertile. That made no sense. I like the idea above however that makes sense.

[Akhôrahil]

17 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I was having a difficult time wth this topic. How could having a high death rune make one infertile. That made no sense. I like the idea above however that makes sense.

High Death rune means low Fertility rune (barring Illumination). And if your Fertility rune isn't associated with your fertility, that's... unexpected.

[Bill the barbarian]

37 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

High Death rune means low Fertility rune (barring Illumination). And if your Fertility rune isn't associated with your fertility, that's... unexpected.

And this has to do with infertility how.... 

Question: why say I am wrong and ignore the post I quote? No, high death means high death, low fertility means low fertility.... QED

Edited October 7, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[Stephen L]

46 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

And if your Fertility rune isn't associated with your fertility, that's... unexpected

Would that mean that a High Death rune is associated with a high mortality.  So, a devout Humakti is unlikely to survive to adulthood?

[Akhôrahil]

7 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

And this has to do with infertility how.... 

Not sure I follow... if your Fertility rune is associated with your fertility (which makes every sense to me), then a low Fertility rune would be associated with low fertility. Since Fertility is on a slider with Death, a high Death rune will - admittedly barring Illumination - mean a low Fertility rune.

Of course, if you don't think the Fertility rune particularly correlates with your fertility, then it doesn't at all follow. It it also doesn't follow if you manage to have a high Fertility rune at the same time as a high Death rune, for instance due to Illumination. And it's not even remotely clear how it would affect gods, who are way outside the normal rules system.