High Death Rune and procreation

[Bill the barbarian]

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

Not sure I follow... if your Fertility rune is associated with your fertility (which makes every sense to me), then a low Fertility rune would be associated with low fertility. Since Fertility is on a slider with Death, a high Death rune will - admittedly barring Illumination - mean a low Fertility rune.

 

I mention infertility not low fertility... two very different things!

[Akhôrahil]

1 minute ago, Stephen L said:

Would that mean that a High Death rune is associated with a high mortality.  So, a devout Humakti is unlikely to survive to adulthood?

High mortality in others you interact with is sufficient. 🙂 It's also a bit unclear how runes work in kids to start with - do you have all your runic values as a kid, or do they get somehow awakened at adulthood?

[Lordabdul]

 

5 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't think Humakt's objection to undead is related to chaos. He just has a very pure approach to the Death Rune, and sees Undeath as a corruption of that.

4 hours ago, soltakss said:

So, are we saying that Storm Bull, the father of all the Praxian Herd Beasts, and Waha, the father of Praxian Khans, have low fertility due to their Death runes? Khans often have many children, so I would guess that a high Death Rune is not a particular disadvantage. I get it for cults such as Babeester Gor, Maran Gor or Humakt, but that is as much a result of the Deity as of the Rune.

Yep, that's my take on it too. The important point is that, like many things in Glorantha, there's not just one version or interpretation. The Death Rune for example has many facets and being strongly aligned with it doesn't necessarily mean one unique thing. It could mean, among other possibilities:

• That Death is necessary and pure, and you have an important responsibility to wield it justly and rightly. That's the Humakt view on Death, and not only do you seek a lonely and ascetic lifestyle to emulate your God, you also do it to be as impartial as possible and use Death in a justified way.
• That Death is a means to an end, not an end it itself. It's a tool to be used in lots of different ways in the pursuit of more important goals, like, say, getting rid of Chaos. That's the Zorak Zoran way. You can use Death to kill people, and you can use Death to raise people back up and keep fighting.
• That Death is part of the great cycle of the world, and goes hand in hand with Life. That's the Waha philosophy. While your Death Rune affinity sets you apart from the other people in the clan, you probably have a deeper understanding than most of everybody's place, and a complementary understanding of Fertility.

That's probably why the rules mention that the Death Rune "may" negatively affect someone's fertility (lowercase "f"). If would apply the negative modifier to a Humakti, but not to a Waha cultist, for instance.

[Akhôrahil]

6 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I mention infertility not low fertility... two very different things!

Ah, now I see! Well, you have a point there - as you can't hit 0% in your Fertility rune, it can be argued that there's always still something there, even if just significantly reduced. But if you're, say, 50 times less fertile than the average person (1% vs 50%), that can look a lot like infertility in practice.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[French Desperate WindChild]

well I m more oriented on death rune impacts fertily, but reading @soltakss and the extinguish trick of  @PhilHibbs (how good eurmali you are), "force est de constater", there is an issue in my view.

 

so maybe (but not in any rules I believe) that the level of a rune impacts you is depending of the god you worship :

foundchild provides death to eat so for another live. Death rune "foundchild's aspect" doesn't mean you are not fertile (you bring life too).

humakt provides death to kill. Death rune "Humakt's aspect" does mean you are lessfertile (you bring death only)

bab's provides death to kill and sacrifice her own male children. So i would believe Death rune "bab's aspect" does mean you are less fertile (you  bring death only)

storm bull provides death to kill but beasts kill to live. Death rune "Bull's aspect" doesn't mean you are not fertile (you bring life). And previously, Storm bull brings disorder, as a baby brings

Edited October 7, 2020 by French Desperate WindChild

[Lordabdul]

7 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

But if you're, say, 50 times less fertile than the average person (1% vs 50%), that can look a lot like infertility in practice.

I don't think I have ever fully understood the "scale" of these affinities, and what it means to have 1%, or even 0%, in a Rune. For instance, many people don't have the Earth Rune on their character sheet... does that mean that can't ever be "pragmatic, prudent, worldly, and sensual"?  Probably not, right? Otherwise, there's a lot of brash, non-sexy people all around town and you have trouble finding a boyfriend.  It seems to me that having 1% or more means you're just getting in the "above median" parts of the population... not that you're in the bottom 1%. And that having 10% doesn't mean being 10 times more sensual than someone with 1%.... But then again, like I said, I don't quite grasp yet how the scores should be interpreted. My guess is that it's useless to try, that the system was only designed to guide roleplaying, and that it would lead us to a fruitless debate like "what are hit points?".

Edited October 7, 2020 by lordabdul

[Bill the barbarian]

3 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I don't think I have ever fully understood the "scale" of these affinities, and what it means to have 1%, or even 0%, in a Rune

Yes

[Akhôrahil]

19 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I don't think I have ever fully understood the "scale" of these affinities, and what it means to have 1%, or even 0%, in a Rune. For instance, many people don't have the Earth Rune on their character sheet... does that mean that can't ever be "pragmatic, prudent, worldly, and sensual"?  Probably not, right?

I think characters probably should have values in all the elemental runes, given that The World Is Made of Everything. That they don't should probably either be interpreted as a pure game artifact (for simplified character creation), or that you can't quite use that rune for anything even if it's still part of you.

19 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

It seems to me that having 1% or more means you're getting in the "above median" parts of the population... not that you're in the bottom 1%. 

Yes, this is a big difference between 1% in one of the Form runes (which means it's a super low value where the average person has something like 50%), 1% in an Elemental rune (which is more than a lot of people have if we go by character creation and statted people), and 1% in something like the Mastery rune (which puts you ahead of the median person). You have the same chance of using the rune, but you're not in the same relative position to other people.

19 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

And that having 10% doesn't mean being 10 times more sensual than someone with 1%.... But then again, like I said, I don't quite grasp yet how the scores should be interpreted. My guess is that it's useless to try, that the system was only designed to guide roleplaying, and that it would lead us to a fruitless debate like "what are hit points?".

I'm sure we could get into notions like that Form runes are normal distributed and calculate statistics and standard deviations (I would personally guess that a lot less than 1% of the population has a 99% Death rune). But yeah, it wouldn't exactly be good for much.

Here's one way where it could be treated as a direct number, though: Let's say you do the special fertility rite that will often produce offspring. At this point, a rule like "Roll your Fertility rune to see if it works" might make sense (although due to the nature of the rules, success would be in the 5% to 95% range, so no-one would have 50 times the success rate...). 

Edited October 7, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Brootse]

25 minutes ago, Stephen L said:

Would that mean that a High Death rune is associated with a high mortality.  So, a devout Humakti is unlikely to survive to adulthood?

From my experience, humaktis and storm bulls usually don't survive for long. Their method of solving problems usually involves glorious charges.

[Akhôrahil]

2 minutes ago, Brootse said:

From my experience, humaktis and storm bulls usually don't survive for long. Their method of solving problems usually involves glorious charges.

One of the lessons from lots of RPGs is that the PCs who are best at fighting are the ones most likely to die in fights. 🙂 

Live by the sword...

Edited October 7, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

35 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Yep, that's my take on it too. The important point is that, like many things in Glorantha, there's not just one version or interpretation. The Death Rune for example has many facets and being strongly aligned with it doesn't necessarily mean one unique thing. It could mean, among other possibilities:

• That Death is necessary and pure, and you have an important responsibility to wield it justly and rightly. That's the Humakt view on Death, and not only do you seek a lonely and ascetic lifestyle to emulate your God, you also do it to be as impartial as possible and use Death in a justified way.
• That Death is a means to an end, not an end it itself. It's a tool to be used in lots of different ways in the pursuit of more important goals, like, say, getting rid of Chaos. That's the Zorak Zoran way. You can use Death to kill people, and you can use Death to raise people back up and keep fighting.
• That Death is part of the great cycle of the world, and goes hand in hand with Life. That's the Waha philosophy. While your Death Rune affinity sets you apart from the other people in the clan, you probably have a deeper understanding than most of everybody's place, and a complementary understanding of Fertility.

That's probably why the rules mention that the Death Rune "may" negatively affect someone's fertility (lowercase "f"). If would apply the negative modifier to a Humakti, but not to a Waha cultist, for instance.

This would also mean that if you're uninitiated but have, say, a high Death Rune, how it expresses would be molded by the cult that you initiate into. Which is super interesting! Perhaps your high Death rune has to be expressed some way, but what exact manner it takes depends on you and your cult? It could also mean that if you have some outstandingly high Rune, there might be a social interest in prodding you into a cult that can handle that - people with a super high Death rune but no cultic framework to manage it in could be a menace to society and a danger to themselves. It's bad if you easily fly into a murderous rage... until you get a Storm Bull initiation, at least!

(HeroWars kinda suggested that Eurmal initiations was society's way to do something with problem kids...)

Edited October 7, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Kloster]

51 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

bab's provides death to kill and sacrifice her own male children. So i would believe Death rune "bab's aspect" does mean you are less fertile (you  bring death only)

If I remember well, Babeester Gor initiates (or perhaps only priestess) have to bring their male children to death and female to their temple. That means they are fertile, even if possibly less than other women. And I expect Babeester Gor priestess to have very high death rune scores.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

storm bull provides death to kill but beasts kill to live. Death rune "Bull's aspect" doesn't mean you are not fertile (you bring life). 

One way to handle this within the rules could go something like this:

GM: Roll your Fertility rune.
Uroxi, looking at character sheet, dismayed: Oh, that's bad... but Storm Bull isn't exactly infertile, is he? Can I attempt to augment with Devotion(Storm Bull)?
GM: Can't see why not.

[soltakss]

 

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

if your Fertility rune is associated with your fertility (which makes every sense to me), then a low Fertility rune would be associated with low fertility. Since Fertility is on a slider with Death, a high Death rune will - admittedly barring Illumination - mean a low Fertility rune.

 

I don't think that follows.

If I have Death 95% Fertility 5% then I have a low Fertility Rune, OK fair enough. However, if I do not have a score at all in Death and Fertility, I also have a low Fertility Rune, in fact Fertility 0%. Does that mean I have zero fertility? Most people would have a low Fertility rune, as most people are not Initiates or above in a Fertility Rune cult.

I think that the Fertility Rune can be used to enhance your Fertility, but does not describe how fertile you are. Having a high Fertility Rune makes you more fertile.

[Richard S.]

3 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I don't think that follows.

If I have Death 95% Fertility 5% then I have a low Fertility Rune, OK fair enough. However, if I do not have a score at all in Death and Fertility, I also have a low Fertility Rune, in fact Fertility 0%. Does that mean I have zero fertility? Most people would have a low Fertility rune, as most people are not Initiates or above in a Fertility Rune cult.

I think that the Fertility Rune can be used to enhance your Fertility, but does not describe how fertile you are. Having a high Fertility Rune makes you more fertile.

Most people would have Fertility 50%, I would think. Sure it ain't high, but it ain't low either.

[Ian Absentia]

6 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I think that the Fertility Rune can be used to enhance your Fertility, but does not describe how fertile you are. Having a high Fertility Rune makes you more fertile.

I agree 100%.  However, does having a high Death Rune place one spiritually at odds with Fertility?  Not necessarily and enemy of Fertility, but attracting the wrong sort of friends, in a manner of speaking.  As my grandma used to say, you'll attract more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Edit...

2 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Most people would have Fertility 50%, I would think. Sure it ain't high, but it ain't low either.

Yeah, I just looked that up.  Power Rune pairs all start at 50/50, so a low Fertility Rune is just what it looks like.

!i!

Edited October 7, 2020 by Ian Absentia

[Rodney Dangerduck]

22 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

That's why in my Glorantha Urox is Disorder Air Beast. It's just a personal thing. 

This is the best solution.  Likewise, Foundchild and perhaps a few others should also not be Death.

[Akhôrahil]

29 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I don't think that follows.

If I have Death 95% Fertility 5% then I have a low Fertility Rune, OK fair enough. However, if I do not have a score at all in Death and Fertility, I also have a low Fertility Rune, in fact Fertility 0%. Does that mean I have zero fertility? Most people would have a low Fertility rune, as most people are not Initiates or above in a Fertility Rune cult.

Unlike in Elemental Runes, you can't have 0% in a Form rune - it's a slider between 1% and 99%, with most people presumably falling somewhere in the middle (if unlisted in an NPC, assume 50%, I guess?). So your low Fertility would be lower than average.

[Jape_Vicho]

3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

 

Yep, that's my take on it too. The important point is that, like many things in Glorantha, there's not just one version or interpretation. The Death Rune for example has many facets and being strongly aligned with it doesn't necessarily mean one unique thing. It could mean, among other possibilities:

• That Death is necessary and pure, and you have an important responsibility to wield it justly and rightly. That's the Humakt view on Death, and not only do you seek a lonely and ascetic lifestyle to emulate your God, you also do it to be as impartial as possible and use Death in a justified way.
• That Death is a means to an end, not an end it itself. It's a tool to be used in lots of different ways in the pursuit of more important goals, like, say, getting rid of Chaos. That's the Zorak Zoran way. You can use Death to kill people, and you can use Death to raise people back up and keep fighting.
• That Death is part of the great cycle of the world, and goes hand in hand with Life. That's the Waha philosophy. While your Death Rune affinity sets you apart from the other people in the clan, you probably have a deeper understanding than most of everybody's place, and a complementary understanding of Fertility.

That's probably why the rules mention that the Death Rune "may" negatively affect someone's fertility (lowercase "f"). If would apply the negative modifier to a Humakti, but not to a Waha cultist, for instance.

Makes sense, maybe I was being too much Humaktcentric. There are many other cults that interpret their runes differently, CA Harmony if different from Foundchild's (peace vs community), or Yelmalio and Elmal Truth (honor vs mysticism). Maybe the important part is the cult you join, as you join and climb the ladder of the cult, you are progressively transformed into an avatar of the God. You first have to artificially emulate the god (as a gorite, don't have children or at least not raise them) but at the end you end up embodying the destructive and barren earth so perfectly that you are not longer able to give birth. That's kinda transhumanist actually. 

[Baron Wulfraed]

Even for Humakt, if one interprets is overly strictly, it means the cult has to solicit for new members from outsiders -- since if cult members don't have children, there won't be any brought up following their parents and hence already leaning to Humakt.

[Akhôrahil]

11 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Even for Humakt, if one interprets is overly strictly, it means the cult has to solicit for new members from outsiders -- since if cult members don't have children, there won't be any brought up following their parents and hence already leaning to Humakt.

This strikes me as highly likely even under a less strict interpretation. Humakt calls followers, rather than them being raised into the cult.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Jape_Vicho]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

This strikes me as highly likely even under a less strict interpretation. Humakt calls followers, rather than them being raised into the cult.

Also humakti tend to either die young or become crazy fanatics like the famous unnamed humakti.

Arkat claimed to be the son of Humakt when Harmast drag him from hell but knowing him it was probably one of his many lies. 

[Rob Darvall]

5 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Even for Humakt, if one interprets is overly strictly, it means the cult has to solicit for new members from outsiders -- since if cult members don't have children, there won't be any brought up following their parents and hence already leaning to Humakt.

I don't know if it's still (or ever was) canon, but Ressurection gives you a chance at the "relife sickness" which I take to be an increase to your death rune in RQG. Sufferers of the sickness tend toward converting to Humakt. I'm fond of it as it increases the penalties for getting your character killed without losing the character altogether. It's also another source of Humakti.

Edited October 8, 2020 by Rob Darvall

[French Desperate WindChild]

8 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Even for Humakt, if one interprets is overly strictly, it means the cult has to solicit for new members from outsiders -- since if cult members don't have children, there won't be any brought up following their parents and hence already leaning to Humakt.

- there is a difference between 0% fertile and less fertile than others.

- a cult is not only a community of initiates and priests but also lay members

In an humakti clan (so a lot of lay members), all people don't have big death rune. Some yes, other no. I would say that if you have death rune and you are born in an humakti clan, you will become Humakt initiate when in another clan (Orlanth, Elmal/Yelmalio, Praxian, ...) they have other or more choices

so yes, from my perspective, the renewal of humaktis is in a larger part outside of the initiate circle than in other cults. but does that mean the cult need more outsiders from its circle of influence ? not sure

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

10 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Even for Humakt, if one interprets is overly strictly, it means the cult has to solicit for new members from outsiders -- since if cult members don't have children, there won't be any brought up following their parents and hence already leaning to Humakt.

Though there is obviously parental influence on your pantheon, I don't think there is much influence on your exact God.  (In Glorantha)