Running a Great Hunt

[Bill the barbarian]

6 minutes ago, skulldixon said:

I also think that you friends can help you with spells during the hunt,

Alas, I will have to disagree with you and Svensson on this issue, but as you have seen I will happily defend your right to play this way

 

6 minutes ago, skulldixon said:

as well as be lookouts for you

Hmm, that is interesting, but if they are on the outlook for prey... is this breaking the rules or just the letter of the rules? Again, this will be your game so while I might not adopt this, it does not matter.  

ETA

 

2 minutes ago, skulldixon said:

When I ran this recently, the other players were doing other stuff at the time back in Clearwine. So I would go back and forth between the two scenes.

Trying to avoid that, but it is a valid option. 

Edited May 23, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[skulldixon]

1 minute ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Alas, I will have to disagree with you and Svensson on this issue, but as you have seen I will happily defend your right to play this way 

It would depend on the spell for me. 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Just have the Hunter character show up an hour early, run a separate little session for them, whatever.  That's how we did it for my PC.  Who is a Vinga worshipper, not a real "hunter", but wanted to impress the Cinsina by singlehandedly taking out a Telmori and Dire Wolf.

[soltakss]

I think that groups can participate in the Great Hunt.

However, by participating as a group:

• You cannot become an initiate of Foundchild, as this is an individual activity
• You cannot become the Master Hunter, as this is also an individual activity

However, you can still participate and bring back good game, sharing it with the other hunters and your Clan.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Just have the Hunter character show up an hour early, run a separate little session for them, whatever.  That's how we did it for my PC.  Who is a Vinga worshipper, not a real "hunter", but wanted to impress the Cinsina by singlehandedly taking out a Telmori and Dire Wolf.

That would defeat the purpose of this thread, how would one get to do a great hunt and bring friends, too (it’s all in the tags). If there was no way to participate with friends it is as a said to skulldixon... it would be a valid option.

 

19 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I think that groups can participate in the Great Hunt.

• You cannot become an initiate of Foundchild, as this is an individual activity
• You cannot become the Master Hunter, as this is also an individual activity

Alright, this is a new take and might well work. I can not see any reason not... Do you think bringing bearers and chefs and healers and leaving them at a base camp would place our hunter into just a "participant role” as you are postulating?

 

Edited May 23, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

However, by participating as a group:

• You cannot become an initiate of Foundchild, as this is an individual activity
• You cannot become the Master Hunter, as this is also an individual activity

However, you can still participate and bring back good game, sharing it with the other hunters and your Clan.

Yes, this is a good additional option.  It also poses an interesting question as to what happens when the group captures or kills the prize prey one of the solo Hunters was after?  What does that Hunter do?  Accuse the group of something sinister?  Attack one of the group in rage?  Steal the captured prey because it was "theirs"?  Or, perhaps, poison the meat to "teach" the group a lesson about "bad behavior"?

 

[Bill the barbarian]

9 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, this is a good additional option.  It also poses an interesting question as to what happens when the group captures or kills the prize prey

Oh, to be a fly on the wall at that revelation!

[svensson]

7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

From the cult perspective, the Great Hunt serves two purposes:

1) it is a test for initiation.  As noted in the old GM Foundchild cult:  "An initiate is one who has brought in a prey animal during the Great Hunt that exceeds ten treasure factors in worth. He must have slain it alone and unarmored. If an initiate performs this feat three years running, he becomes a permanent initiate."

Yes, there are many hunts that will occur that are cooperative events through the year.  But, at this sacred time/event, leading up to Sacred Time, this is when the new hunters must face the test of hunting alone.  Otherwise, you are just the equivalent of a beater or butcher - important for a clan, but you have not proved yourself.

(And initiation in general, in all cults, is about the test of the individual, not the group.  Even if you begin as a group, e.g. Orlanthi initiation rites, you are separated and your initiation quests are distinct and individual.)

2) it is the competition to be the Great Hunter.  As noted in same text:  "Each year, during the three weeks just prior to Sacred Time, there is the Great Hunt and all followers of Foundchild participate, attempting to bring in the most magnificent creature. The winner is designated the First Hunter and the head of the cult, the next few are designated Great Hunters, and the rest are simply Hunters."

This is the ultimate test as a hunter - to stalk and capture or slay the most dangerous beast on your own, and prove your current standing in the cult leadership.  To do so with help vs. someone who achieves it alone seems like a "cheat".  But there are plenty of other hunts, particularly of dangerous beasts throughout the rest of the year where you clearly want to draw upon the community of hunters.

I think you have to look at the Great Hunt from the perspective of the initiation rites, in which case "aiding" them effectively diminishes them.  This is an achievement/proof of the self, not of the group.

And that's why I suggested that the appropriate "assistance" would be like the role of the Uncles in Orlanthi initiation - their roles are to distract the individual, test them, try to lead them astray, set up traps and lures for them.  I think there's a lot of opportunity here to make the scenario more than just succeed in some set of skills.  The trickster character is the Trickster (Fox, Raven, etc.) and encounters the Hunter - how do they test them?  A riddling game?  An option of trails?  The Storm Bull character is the thundering Storm Bull, charging at the Hunter and forcing them to make decision as to whether to stand or flee, or perhaps leading a stampede that obscures the tracks the hunter is trying to follow. 

You can think of it as breaking the characters into two parties:  those trying to Capture the Flag (i.e. the prey beasts), and those who are hiding/defending the Flag (and can determine the various obstacles, move the Flag, etc.).  It plays out differently than everyone aiding the Hunters, but can engage everyone and help make the Great Hunt more memorable.

 

Looking at the most recent Foundchild [RQG main rulebook pg 295] it says,

"Master Hunter [Rune Lord]:

Requirements: Each year there is a Great Hunt, in which normally only Master Hunters take part. Those participating may wear no armor and must hunt alone."

At no point does it say when Initiation tests are performed.

As an aside, when I was a kid I was a Boy Scout for several years. While in the Scouts I was inducted into the BSA's Order of the Arrow, which had an initiation rite including a weekend of personal silence, a sweat lodge and several other things. Additionally, when I was in the SCA I sat vigil with a friend the night before he was knighted. One of the our friends was an Episcopalian deacon and we spent the night on our knees as he led us in prayer.

While neither of these experiences are in any way similar to the deadly serious initiations necessary for a Gloranthan to achieve Rune rank, they did give me some insight on the ideas behind rites of passage. In the Order of the Arrow initiation, I could not physically help another candidate in the initiation tasks other than to provide things like first aid. In the SCA, I simply provided moral support as a comrade and shield brother.

But does moral support and first aid [or in a gaming sense, Heal spells or buffs] break the ritual environment needed to achieve Rune mastery within a cult?

[jajagappa]

40 minutes ago, svensson said:

But does moral support and first aid [or in a gaming sense, Heal spells or buffs] break the ritual environment needed to achieve Rune mastery within a cult?

Each GM may have their own take.  Personally, I would follow the "must hunt alone" criteria.  Moral support would be part of the initial event - the great meeting of all the participants.  At the appointed time, each would begin their journey.  Perhaps a group heads off north.  But one-by-one, each makes a decision as to when they will branch off and leave the group.  And from that point on, they are alone.

Now, that says nothing about those who stay behind and may have been in attendance.  Perhaps there are healers who then set out upon the paths an hour, or half day, or a day later.  They could seek out and heal hunters who have been direly wounded.  However, I'd likely say that those who accept such healing effectively drop out of the rites.  The hunter who can heal their own wounds, and keep going, who can survive the three weeks alone, is going to be a Master or First Hunter.

One reason I like the mythic alignment of "non-participants" is they could don the masks of certain figures, and head off before the hunters.  This becomes a more Otherworldly quest, and makes for some interesting questions/choices.  What if the wounded Hunter encounters the "Lady of the Wild" and she offers the Hunter healing?  Does that negate the quest?  The Lady of the Wild is the ultimately the true judge of the Hunt.  Perhaps that indicates her favor?  Or perhaps it is a test of their Devotion (Foundchild) vs. their Disorder Rune (the selfish hunter) [or whatever Passion or Rune seems most appropriate]?  And the "Lady of the Wild" being one of the PC's may choose to present or withhold their choice from the rest of the Hunters.

Or the wounded Hunter encounters "Fox" and Fox says there is healing to be found in the Blissful Pool - and when the Hunter reaches the Blissful Pool, it is guarded by the "Emerald Serpent".  Do they kill the serpent and heal themselves?  Do they bargain with the Emerald Serpent for a drink from the Pool? Or something else?  But what if the Emerald Serpent is one of the PC's???  Or the Hunter thinks that the Emerald Serpent might be the ultimate prize to return with?

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Now, that says nothing about those who stay behind and may have been in attendance.  Perhaps there are healers who then set out upon the paths an hour, or half day, or a day later.  They could seek out and heal hunters who have been direly wounded.  However, I'd likely say that those who accept such healing effectively drop out of the rites.  The hunter who can heal their own wounds, and keep going, who can survive the three weeks alone, is going to be a Master or First Hunter.

Good idea.  And these healers may need help, scouting, or protection from other party members.

Otherwise, alone is alone.  I really don't see how you get around that.

[Lordabdul]

5 hours ago, svensson said:

At no point does it say when Initiation tests are performed.

Yeah most of us were going with the older Foundchild (and other hunter cults) write-ups from Cult Compendium and related sources. It seems like there was a change in RQG where only Master Hunters typically go to the Great Hunt, when it was really anybody (including lay members) before. So if you go by RQG, you would indeed need to ignore half of the recommendations given here.

[svensson]

12 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Yeah most of us were going with the older Foundchild (and other hunter cults) write-ups from Cult Compendium and related sources. It seems like there was a change in RQG where only Master Hunters typically go to the Great Hunt, when it was really anybody (including lay members) before. So if you go by RQG, you would indeed need to ignore half of the recommendations given here.

Actually, and I know this because I specifically checked it, the Great Hunt rite said 'Master Hunters only' in RQ3 as well. Neither Cults of Prax nor Cults of Terror for RQ2 list any Hunter cult.

In RQ3's God of Glorantha Cults Book, pg 43 the descriptive text reads,

"Master Hunter Membership

Requirements: Each year there is a Great Hunt, in which normally only Master Hunters are take part. Those participating may wear no armor and must hunt alone.

If there is a vacancy in the tribe for a new Master Hunter [my emphasis], initiates that know the Butchery skill at 90% or more are permitted to take part, but this is voluntary. Each participant tried to bring in the most impressive game animal. He must slay or capture it alone and unarmored. Live captured animals are 'more impressive' than dead ones. The quality of the various animals brought in is judged by the tribal elders."

The text is fundamentally the same in RQG, substituting the Peaceful Cut skill [it was changed from a spell to a skill in RQG] for Butchery.

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

Actually, and I know this because I specifically checked it, the Great Hunt rite said 'Master Hunters only' in RQ3 as well. Neither Cults of Prax nor Cults of Terror for RQ2 list any Hunter cult.

Ah right, so it changed between RQ2 and RQ3 then. The RQ2 write-up that Cult Compendium has comes from Griffin Mountain (Foundchild) and Trollpak (Hunter).

[Ali the Helering]

"Of course your friends can be a part of the Hunt.  The only requirement is that they go to Davvuli the Serdrodosan for a blessing before dark, and sleep outside the hunter's lodge when they will be blessed by Mitol the Mighty.  He will give them a pelt to sleep under, so that they are ready for the Hunt."

That way one can be assured of a good number of prey, even if they would otherwise be lacking.

[French Desperate WindChild]

4 hours ago, svensson said:

Actually, and I know this because I specifically checked it, the Great Hunt rite said 'Master Hunters only' in RQ3 as well. Neither Cults of Prax nor Cults of Terror for RQ2 list any Hunter cult.

In RQ3's God of Glorantha Cults Book, pg 43 the descriptive text reads,

"Master Hunter Membership

Requirements: Each year there is a Great Hunt, in which normally only Master Hunters are take part. Those participating may wear no armor and must hunt alone.

If there is a vacancy in the tribe for a new Master Hunter [my emphasis], initiates that know the Butchery skill at 90% or more are permitted to take part, but this is voluntary. Each participant tried to bring in the most impressive game animal. He must slay or capture it alone and unarmored. Live captured animals are 'more impressive' than dead ones. The quality of the various animals brought in is judged by the tribal elders."

The text is fundamentally the same in RQG, substituting the Peaceful Cut skill [it was changed from a spell to a skill in RQG] for Butchery.

Personaly I would follow this words and nothing else

I see this hunt as "One versus wild" not "One and his/her friends",

 

and One is for me the best candidate(s) of the clan (or clan-bloodline-cult) : If the clan has several master hunters, all the master hunters. If the clan has no master hunter, the best initiate

I see this hunt to as "the One sent to save the clan when there is no more hope, and sent with the high probability to bo killed. Something like a sacrifice to the nature, but finally saved by the nature because his/her high value"

 

I note saying other perspectives are wrong, just this is mine

 

[David Scott]

56 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Personaly I would follow this words and nothing else

I see this hunt as "One versus wild" not "One and his/her friends",

I would also point out that it says

Quote

normally only master hunters take part. Those participating may wear no armor and must hunt alone.

If you want to include all of your group, it then moves out of normally, which is also allowed.

 

[Bill the barbarian]

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

If you want to include all of your group, it then moves out of normally, which is also allowed.

 

Well, this is a twist I was not expecting. So, bring friends, check. Not a master hunter, check. Just file it under “Not a normal day."

I have to assume that a non-master hunter returning with a beast and his or her tale and all their friends could cause controversy, if you should happen to fall into one or both of the above situations. Have a look at the controversy of the past couple of pages, for proof of this. More so if you should happen to bring in the winning beast. But it can be done. Again, interesting. I will have to parse this. 

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[French Desperate WindChild]

30 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Well, this is a twist I was not expecting. So, bring friends, check. Not a master hunter, check. Just file it under “Not a normal day."

I have to assume that a non-master hunter returning with a beast and his or her tale and all their friends could cause controversy, if you should happen to fall into one or both of the above situations. Have a look at the controversy of the past couple of pages, for proof of this. More so if you should happen to bring in the winning beast. But it can be done. Again, interesting. I will have to parse this. 

 

same for me, but as said, everything depends on the table so i don't define any rule there.

 

the "not a normal day" is, for me, "we (the community) don't have any master hunter, but we need / must participate to this yearly great ritual so we send someone else." (that for me the best initiate, ... or the best candidate)

For sure, this kind of "segregation" between players could be boring /frustratring for some tables.

 

But it is clear that if my players were able to propose a good reason / myth / etc... to do this hunt differently, I would accept it, maybe grumbling 😉

 by default, as GM playing the elders,  the GHC (great hunt committee), I will not propose that by myself.

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by French Desperate WindChild

[David Scott]

17 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I have to assume that a non-master hunter returning with a beast and his or her tale and all their friends could cause controversy, if you should happen to fall into one or both of the above situations. Have a look at the controversy of the past couple of pages, for proof of this. More so if you should happen to bring in the winning beast. But it can be done. Again, interesting. I will have to parse this. 

In my Praxian campaign, there are four or so hunting cults: Orlanth Adventurous, Foundchild, Waha and Orogeria (sables and unicorn tribe). Only Foundchild uses the Great Hunt for cult progression. So what happens if an Orlanth Adventurous hunter, brings in the largest prize - Nothing. They get to be an honoured Great Hunter / Master hunter (whatever), but unless they were Foundchild / Zong / Rasout / Odayla it is just a bit of fun. 

Think of it like the village cheese rolling contest. Outsiders can take part, but they only get the visitor prize even if they win. Villagers get the glory of being master of the cheese. Outsiders who get a visitor prize maybe looked on kindly when they move to the village as they participated. (If you don't have cheese rolling, replace with Morris Dancing or Yard of ale drinking)

When I've run this, there's never been the intent for for any of the adventurers to bring in the best prize, most were happy to finish.

[Bill the barbarian]

19 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

same for me, but as said, everything depends on the table so i don't define any rule there.

 

Yes this is my first rule

23 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

For sure, this kind of "segregation" between players could be boring /frustratring for some tables.

 

This was my main problem. Still, do I cancel a game with the others (I do not wish to increase my screen time, I have enough thankyouverymuch!) but I do want to have a way to bring everyone in. David Scott says, go for it!” I assume if the non-competing participants buy local, join the parties and be good guests... well all is good!

 

26 minutes ago, David Scott said:

When I've run this, there's never been the intent for for any of the adventurers to bring in the best prize, most were happy to finish.

Well, thank you very kindly for giving this little topic your consideration. You’ve been great!

[French Desperate WindChild]

9 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Well, thank you very kindly for giving this little topic your consideration. You’ve been great!

Yes very important point, thanks you my lovely barbarian, even if we (anyone) can disagree on some things, I always appreciate other perspective (when that is not "I m true, you disagree, you are wrong" of course)

[Darius West]

On 5/23/2021 at 12:31 AM, Bill the barbarian said:

Agreed, but this does not sound like fun

You'd think that, but you need to recall that the Great Hunt and what takes place after it are as close to a festival that a neolithic hunter society every enjoy.  It is a time of full bellies, songs, trade, marriage, and beer made from wild grains.  Why? Because this is when the migratory herds come, and for a month or so everyone gets to eat their fill.  In a society where calories are the main form of wealth, this is the happiest time of the year.

As to the non-hunting jobs being boring or not fun, that I'm afraid is just poverty of imagination Bill.  For example, beating the brush to scare game out can quickly turn into an "oh no" moment, when you startle an allosaurus you thought was a fallen tree trunk, or similar but less outright life threatening predator encounters.

Now say you are given the unpleasant job of hauling meat to the main cave from the latest killing/butchery site?  Ample opportunities for encounters from scavengers, bullies, predators etc.

Next, let's consider what happens to the people doing the support jobs.  Say you spend all day tanning.  Guess what?  Now you have a pile of hides that represent your share of the work done that you are able to trade.  You are "cashed up" with furs and the travelling merchants are in town with beads and trinkets  you can trade for.  Those merchants will likely have jobs they want done for extra credit, and perhaps so does your tribe.

Then, there are all the tribal politics that will play out during this time.  Who is marrying whom?  Who will become the shaman's new apprentice?  Will X make rune status this year?  Y wants to break off and create a new clan in that valley.  One of the clan children is Missing 411 and experienced trackers are needed, etc.  

The Great Hunt is a major religious event, and major gatherings mean that all social stakes are raised for the period.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Darius West

[Baron Wulfraed]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Then, there are all the tribal politics that will play out during this time.  Who is marrying whom?  Who will become the shaman's new apprentice?  Will X make rune status this year?  Y wants to break off and create a new clan in that valley.  One of the clan children is Missing 411 and experienced trackers are needed, etc. 

"Will X make rune status this year?"

Going by RQ:RiG p295/296, this is only possible IF there is an opening for a new "Master Hunter".

Quote

If there is a vacancy in the tribe for a new Master Hunter, initiates that know the Peaceful Cut at 90% or higher are permitted to take part, but this is voluntary. ...

...

If a hunter manages to bring in the most impressive game animal, the initiate is ordained a Master Hunter. Only one new Master Hunter can be created in a year. If two or more hunters tie for first place, no new Master Hunter is chosen.

I suspect that last paragraph should read "If an initiate manages..." since a large tribe might have more than one Master Hunter and still have a vacancy; and obviously, if one of the MHs brings in the "most impressive", one would not be elevating an initiate... Also "two or more initiates"

Hmmm -- there's a chance for intra-tribal role-play conflict.

In1: "I could have been a Master Hunter but you ruined it for me"

In2: "What do you mean I 'ruined it'! You ruined by chances to be elevated!"

In1: <slaps In2 with rabbit carcass> ...

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Baron Wulfraed

[Rodney Dangerduck]

@Bill the barbarian Please let us know how it turns out!

[GMKen]

Interestingly, a RAW reading of the original Griffin Mountain Foundchild cult reveals that it is only at the Initiate level that it is specifically indicated that they must hunt alone.  Lay members may participate in the hunt, and it could be inferred that they might work together to make sure everyone got some prey.  They’re still in the learning stage, and it’s a chance to see how their teamwork skills are developing.

Master Hunter (Rune Lord) applicants “must also be a permanent initiate, and in the most recent great hunt have captured the beast with the highest treasure factor (T.F.) of any initiate.”  If one decides that part of being a Rune Lord is being a leader and being a leader means leading teams, then it might be that Rune Lord applicants might work with a small team of non-applicant initiates to outdo everyone else in the hunt, and leading successful teams is perhaps part of what the process is supposed to unveil.  I can especially see this as being the case when going after, say, water wyrms (T.F. 28 or so) or allosauri (T.F. 40-ish)

But to get to initiate status - that you have to do on your own.  Leonidas vs. the wolf a la 300.

Limiting the Great Hunt to just Master Hunters seems a bit elitist to me.  Almost...Lunar...  I guess they had to do something when they dropped (sadly) the treasure factors.

And of course a pedant will chime in with “well what if a non-permanent initiate brings in a bigger treasure factor kill than a Rune Lord applicant?”  Read RAW the Applicant would be SOL.  So better go for that allosaurus.