True Sword and Fire Blade

[Stephen L]

A quick question on combining True Sword and Fire Blade, to check I’ve not missed something:

True Sword: (p100 red book of magic)

Quote

Cast on a specified melee weapon, this spell doubles the weapon’s normal damage

Fire Blade: (p144 red book of magic)

Quote

Cast on any edged weapon or spear, this spell changes the weapon’s damage to be 3D6.

It seems to me that casting True Sword and then Fire Blade gives 6D6 Damage.  And a special, would be 9D6 and a critical would be 54 points through armour.  Ouch.

And if you allow Fire Blade damage against spirits (red book of magic refers to Fire Blade as “Magical Fire”)...  I suppose Humakt is the god of death, so would grant fearsome magic against spirits.

Both spells are awesome and powerful in their own right, so I'm not suggesting that these damages are unbalanced when you combine them, rather checking if I have the rules right.

Thank goodness Fire Blade is an active spell.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Stephen L
Added section on game balance

[Joerg]

The easy route is to say the two spells are incompatible.

I think a casting of Truesword on a blade with Fireblade on it will return the blade to its true metal form. I mean, it is in the name of the rune spell, isn't it?

To cast Fireblade on a blade with Truesword on would be tricky again. Should spirit magic trump rune magic?

[Stephen L]

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The easy route is to say the two spells are incompatible

Many apologies, I shall edit my original post, as I didn't want it to appear I was suggesting that the combination of Fire Blade and True sword was ridiculous.  Merely to check I had the rules right.

I can live with those damage levels as a referee, and the work around is not to disallow it.  Disrupt forcing concentration roles is one of many counter measures.

However, your suggestions, if I had wanted to restrict their combined use, are sound.

[Richard S.]

Fireblade is perfectly compatible with Truesword, so RAW yes, you can have a 6D6 weapon for the low cost of 1 RP and 4 MP.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Richard S.

[g33k]

I would consider those spells incompatible.
Not magically incompatible -- you could cast them both on the same blade -- but mechanistically incompatible.
 

Quote

Cast on a specified melee weapon, this spell doubles the weapon’s normal damage

Quote

this spell changes the weapon’s damage to be 3D6

(that is, a Fireblade'd weapon no longer does "normal" damage, so there is nothing to be doubled by the "True <weapon>")

YGWV.

Edited January 10, 2022 by g33k

[Joerg]

The most ludicrous but unfortunately logical solution would be that Truesword adds the weapon's regular damage as magical damage while the normal damage is changed to 3D6 fire damage, both inflicted at once to the same target. A changed Telmori would be damaged by both, a fire elemental only by the Truesword magical damage.

Can a weapon under the influence of Fireblade be damaged or break? Can it parry?

Edited January 10, 2022 by Joerg

[Godlearner]

29 minutes ago, Stephen L said:

It seems to me that casting True Sword and then Fire Blade gives 6D6 Damage.  And a special, would be 9D6 and a critical would be 54 points through armour.  Ouch.

That is how we always played it, but a special was 12D6 and in RQ3 Fireblade was passive. 

[Stephen L]

5 minutes ago, g33k said:

YGWV

I have to admire your argument! 

However, following it to conclusions would mean a fire bladed true sword on a broadsword is 3d6 + 1d8+1. 

Which is both messy, and seeming against the intent of the wording for fireblade that it "replaces the normal damage done by the weapon". 

After-all, if the intent was to make the two spells incompatible, just saying so would be clearer.

Though my game will vary, I can see your argument is solid..

[g33k]

1 minute ago, Stephen L said:

...

After-all, if the intent was to make the two spells incompatible, just saying so would be clearer.

...

I don't think "the intent" was ever to consider each spell with regard to the other.

Each spell gives the generally-applicable rules for that spell; it's up to us to figure the specifics.

 

[Stephen L]

4 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

a special was 12D6

That was my initial thought, but the very careful wording of the description of specials (for example: 

Quote

An impale does twice the weapon’s normal rolled damage

(page 203, RuneQuest in Glorantha).

leads me to a special with a truesword being 3 times, rather than 4 times damage.

[French Desperate WindChild]

16 minutes ago, Stephen L said:

However, following it to conclusions would mean a fire bladed true sword on a broadsword is 3d6 + 1d8+1. 

not for me, I follow @g33k

true sword doubles normal damage, fire blade replaces the damage by 3d6 magical damage

=> even if you consider there is no commutativity in magic, the result is the same :

a) first apply true sword then fire blade:

1d8+1 (normal) -> 1d8+1 (normal) + 1d8+1 (true sword) -> 3d6 (magic fireblade) = 3d6

b) first apply fire blade then true sword

1d8+1 (normal) -> 3d6 (magic fireblade) + 0 (normal) -> 3d6 (magic fireblade) + 0  (normal) + 0 (true sword) = 3d6

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Truesword "doubles the normal damage done by the weapon".

Fire Blade is not "normal".

A fire bladed true sword on a broadsword does

• 3d6 (Fire Blade)
• + 1d8+1  (the normal damage)
• + any damage bonus.

[Joerg]

It is hard to fight a troll, so :

If an iron sword with true-sword on hits a special on a troll, what multiplyer do we use?

4 times - weapon damage doubled, plus weapon damage from truesword, plus weapon damage again from the iron?

5 times - doubled weapon damage doubled for iron for a total of 4 times, plus once for Truesword?

6 times, as in non-iron special damage doubled?

8 times, as in doubled for special doubled for iron doubled for Truesword?

And now add Fireblade into the mix, sit back, and have some popcorn.

[Godlearner]

17 minutes ago, Stephen L said:

(page 203, RuneQuest in Glorantha).

Quote

The slashing weapon’s damage should be rolled normally twice and both results added together.

Quote

spell changes the weapon’s damage to be 3D6.

Quote

this spell doubles the weapon’s normal damage

Looks like 12D6 to me

[French Desperate WindChild]

Just now, Joerg said:

And now add Fireblade into the mix, sit back, and have some popcorn.

seems to me that a fireblade is made of fire, not bronze, not iron not any metal, until the end of the spell

 

[Scotty]

You might want to check the Q&A for Fireblade.

 

 

[PhilHibbs]

Personally, I think the "normal damage" exception applies. Fireblade damage is not "normal weapon damage".

[Dragon]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

The most ludicrous but unfortunately logical solution would be that Truesword adds the weapon's regular damage as magical damage while the normal damage is changed to 3D6 fire damage, both inflicted at once to the same target. A changed Telmori would be damaged by both, a fire elemental only by the Truesword magical damage.

Can a weapon under the influence of Fireblade be damaged or break? Can it parry?

Fire Elementals can be affected by any weapon. All elementals can be. RQG Bestiary, page 177, start of second column: "All elementals can be struck in combat with ordinary
weapons, breaking up their physical form and eventually disrupting them. They have only one hit location and no armor. When an elemental has been reduced to 0 hit points,
it dissolves."

You are either

1. conflating the rules in RQG: page 36 section call 'Attacking with Weapons and Spells' for disembodied spirits. Elementals are not disembodied spirits while manifesting.
2. stating that Fire Elementals explicitly are immune to fire damage. I will note that no specific statement in RQG Bestiary states that. Though that may be a reasonable suggestion, the RAW do not say that. Are Dehori immune to Fear? Lunes to Madness? Umbroli to Lightning?

Are things without INT immune to Madness and Mindblast? I would guess Mindblast at least. But that would answer the question about Lunes and Madness.

[Dragon]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

It is hard to fight a troll, so :

If an iron sword with true-sword on hits a special on a troll, what multiplyer do we use?

4 times - weapon damage doubled, plus weapon damage from truesword, plus weapon damage again from the iron?

5 times - doubled weapon damage doubled for iron for a total of 4 times, plus once for Truesword?

6 times, as in non-iron special damage doubled?

8 times, as in doubled for special doubled for iron doubled for Truesword?

And now add Fireblade into the mix, sit back, and have some popcorn.

Definitely not in terms of iron on trolls. That is specifically for any portion that bypassed armor and parry. So if you rolled 19 damage (including damage bonus), and the troll parried with a great club for 12, then armor stopped 6, one point got through and is doubled to 2 for iron on a troll. Had the parry failed, 13 got through to be doubled to 26.

Note that doubled damage for a Humakti gift also works after armor.

 

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Personally, I think the "normal damage" exception applies. Fireblade damage is not "normal weapon damage".

Actually, I just think that they should not combine. The tradition of listing incompatible spells is impossible to maintain perfectly, and could ab adsurdam just lead to massive lists in each and every spell definition. Some judgement has to be exercised in this regard, you can't just assume that two spells are compatible just because they are not explicitly listed as not. Well, you can assume that, some people clearly do, but I don't. RuneQuest is not a game like Magic The Gathering where everything has to be taken as literal and exhaustive.

The "normal weapon damage" line is just icing on the cake.

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Actually, I just think that they should not combine. The tradition of listing incompatible spells is impossible to maintain perfectly, and could ab adsurdam just lead to massive lists in each and every spell definition. Some judgement has to be exercised in this regard, you can't just assume that two spells are compatible just because they are not explicitly listed as not. Well, you can assume that, some people clearly do, but I don't. RuneQuest is not a game like Magic The Gathering where everything has to be taken as literal and exhaustive.

The "normal weapon damage" line is just icing on the cake.

I'm thinking the opposite.

Given that both spells have been around for decades, and no doubt people have used that combination for decades.

So, if they were meant to be incompatible, then it would be just as clearly stated as any other clearly incompatible combination.

I also think this use of "normal" as a way out is similar to Bill Clinton's "what do you mean by the word "is"?"

[HreshtIronBorne]

I dunno. In our gaming we have always liked BEEG NUMBER! So, In Our Glorantha they interact fully. Fireblade replaces the normal damage of a broadsword to 3d6 and truesword doubles it to 6d6. There are plenty of ways to get your defenses or damage almost arbitrarily high without even needing things like HeroQuest abilities or whatever that actually breaks the rules. RQ is supposed to be hella deadly, so we have always just let it ride. It is silly satisfying to roll 6-12d6 for damage and absolutely annihilate something. Lolol. It might just be the power gamer in me. 

[Akhôrahil]

Truesword doubles the weapon’s normal damage. It makes sense to me, as the most straightforward reading, that Fireblade no longer deals the weapon’s normal damage, and instead replaces the  normal damage with a non-normal damage. Which is then unaffected by Truesword.

More interesting is Humakti Gifted double damage sword + Fireblade, which presumably does work.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

It is hard to fight a troll, so :

If an iron sword with true-sword on hits a special on a troll, what multiplyer do we use?

4 times - weapon damage doubled, plus weapon damage from truesword, plus weapon damage again from the iron?

5 times - doubled weapon damage doubled for iron for a total of 4 times, plus once for Truesword?

6 times, as in non-iron special damage doubled?

8 times, as in doubled for special doubled for iron doubled for Truesword?

One thing is clear, at least - subtract armor before the Iron doubling. I think 5 can be ruled out immediately - there’s no way that happens. The Iron doubling is separate by necessity.

But you can construct 6 in a different way, as x3 and then x2 for Iron.

Now add multiple Humakti Gifts on top of all this…

Edited January 11, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[HreshtIronBorne]

Even 3d6 +1d8+1 is really good. I'd allow a full impale to do 6d6+2d8+2 because Beeg Nomber. Even a guy with Shield 12 is worried when Firblade is in some skilled hands.