Spells for Odayla

[David Scott]

14 hours ago, Soccercalle said:

I am thinking about giving some more available Rune Spells to Odayla or at least change them.

The easiest way to give a cult new magic is through a local hero cult that gives one rune spell, that may even be unique. 

Quote

A subcult is a smaller and often local version of a cult, which worships a local variant of the deity, a minor god subservient to the deity, an ancient hero, family ancestors, or an obscure spirit surviving from the God Time. Subcults, page 282

So you could have Great Sky Hunter, that caught the Sky Bear and tore a medium air elemental from it, or even pillage names from older publications:

• Kudran Golden Feather gives Sureshot (single shrine is somewhere in northern Sartar)
• Mabar the fisher gives Draw Salmon (single shrine is somewhere in Aggar). Draw Salmon (beast) is a one point version of Draw Prey that only works on Salmon.
• Ranoo Longlegs gives Endurance (single shrine is somewhere in Sylila). Endurance (beast) (1pt stackable) allow the caster to move / jog / run for 6 hours, without tiring as long as they are tracking / chasing prey. Each extra point adds another 6 hours (incompatible with extension).

14 hours ago, Soccercalle said:

I am also thinking about giving them the spirit spell Silence. Also a spell that seems logical for a hunter.

They can learn Silence as an associate of Yinkin:

Quote

An associate cult provides spirit magic spells and a single special Rune spell to the central cult. Spirit magic can usually be learned from an associate cult on the same terms as the associate cult provides for its own members. Associated Cults, page 283

So half price.

14 hours ago, Soccercalle said:

Any good reasons why I shouldn't?

Yes.

14 hours ago, Soccercalle said:

I guess that Dark Walk is something that is based on Orlanth stealing sandals from Kyger Litor (and not something that Odayla have). 

Unless your Odaylan has done some HeroQuesting it's unlikely they've stolen anything from Kyger Litor.

14 hours ago, Soccercalle said:

On the other hand, giving Odayla Air Elementals seems even more wrong. 

As an air god, seems natural to me: Odayla, The Sky Bear, Air / Beast. Odayla is the son of Orlanth and the Lady of the Wilds.

Edited June 30, 2022 by David Scott

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Unless your Odaylan has done some HeroQuesting it's unlikely they've stolen anything from Kyger Litor.

Orlanth cultists, who already have an amazing array of rune spells from his (and her) own myths, also receive 14 Rune Spells from associated cults and their myths.  And I may be missing some, or more will appear in GoG.  I'm not complaining, my current PC is a Vinga worshipper.  Yet you begrudge giving Odalya one rune spell that's clearly useful to their archetype.  As things currently stand, Orlanth is a far better hunter cult than Odalya.

By this logic, should an Orlanthi PC have to do HeroQuesting to obtain Charisma or Restore Health? 

[svensson]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Sounds like a cat...

I wonder how THAT could be.... 😎

[Jape_Vicho]

When I first saw Odayla I thought it was pretty limited and not much fun to play. Foundchild seems like a better hunting god but I'm adamant that in my Gloratha he is not worshiped in Sartar bc it just seems dumb to have it once you already have Odayla AND Yinkin (which is not exactly a hunting god but it's close). My solution is actually just written in the rulebook but for some reason not developed, and it's simply that "Odayla is often worshiped as a subcult of the Orlanth cult." (RQG, p. 300). Odayla already gives even less Rune Spells than Adventurous or Thunderer on their own, so it doesn't make it OP at all, it just makes it more versatile and, imho, realistic, as it changes from being a cult that only hunting-obsessed Orlanthi would choose to follow to one of the many aspects of Orlanth one can choose to focus on, and would allow clans and tribes that mainly live off of hunting and foraging to do that without losing their connection with the storm god.

Essentialy my changes are to add the "Special Rune Magic (all subcults)" from Orlanth to Odayla's Rune Magic pool, to replace the Associated Cults with those of Orlanth EXCEPT for Ernalda, which is changed for the Lady of the Wilds, as it's his mother and also hunters are not connected as much as farmers and herders to the powers of Earth ( also I wouldn't take Foundchild and DF as associated, I don't get why is Odayla associated at all with ancestor worship and Foundchild is just an analog in another society), but leave the rest, including the Spirit Magic, the same. At the moment I would do Barntar and Voriof the same way, we still don't have the yearned Cults book so my take can change but that's my current opinion on the matter.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Jape_Vicho

[Jeff]

Odayla is a bear cult that is worshiped as a son of Orlanth. He's usually found as a subcult of Orlanth in Dragon Pass but a few independent minor temples (I know of one on Jerra Hill) and shrines exist. But in Dragon Pass the independent cult is a rounding error.

In Sylila and the nearby provinces, Odayla is a bigger deal, with some 10,000 followers. In Sylila, his cult is comparable in size to Orlanth's. He's also found in Talastar, Anadiki, and Brolia. 

At the end of the day his cult is that of a divine Bear God. His cult was more important in the First Age, when the King Bear cult was a big deal throughout the Pelorian Hill Country and even competed with the Heortling Orlanth cult for a while. But the Heortlings proved their Orlanth magic gave them mastery over the Bear God and now we have Orlanth Thunderous ruling the hill country instead of King Bear. Orlanth became a vehicle for magical exploration and quests, and his cult is broad and deep. Odayla in contrast is one of several Pelorian bear cults (although certainly the most numerous).

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Yet you begrudge giving Odalya one rune spell that's clearly useful to their archetype.  As things currently stand, Orlanth is a far better hunter cult than Odalya.

There's nothing begrudging about it. Odayla simply doesn't have a myth where he used the Sandals of Darkness that Orlanth stole. Therefore he doesn't have the spell.

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

By this logic, should an Orlanthi PC have to do HeroQuesting to obtain Charisma or Restore Health? 

The myth of how Orlanth got those powers from their respective origins are well known to Gloranthans. Technically they are heroquesting when they learn the spell - within the worship ceremony, the participants go to the Other Side and witness or re-enact their deity's deeds. It's low-level safe heroquesting following well-known paths. If you want to discover something new and unknown, like how Odayla borrowed the Sandals from Orlanth, then that's difficult and dangerous but you could start a new subcult and be famous for it!

Yes, Orlanth is better than Odayla. Of course he is, that's why he's the king of the gods.

Edited June 30, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Rodney Dangerduck]

22 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Yes, Orlanth is better than Odayla. Of course he is, that's why he's the king of the gods

Orlanth is a better hunter cult than Odayla, (nobody has argued otherwise) and a better Singer cult than Donandar, (Jeff admitted this) and, with Guided Tport, I'd say a better(ish?) merchant god than Issaries.

I see that as a problem.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Yet you begrudge giving Odalya one rune spell that's clearly useful to their archetype.  As things currently stand, Orlanth is a far better hunter cult than Odalya.

The OP was asking  

Quote

about giving some more available Rune Spells to Odayla or at least change them.

I wasn't begrudging Odalya having more rune spells, just offering a suggestion as to how to easily add more.

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

By this logic, should an Orlanthi PC have to do HeroQuesting to obtain Charisma or Restore Health? 

I'm not sure I understand your reasoning, Orlanth gets Charisma from Eurmal and Restore Health from Chalana Arroy. Odayla does not get Dark Walk from any associate.

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, Jape_Vicho said:

When I first saw Odayla I thought it was pretty limited and not much fun to play.

I agree that it is an important principle of MGF that every player actually sitting round a table should be able to fill their rune pool up to the cap with unique rune spells.

I also agree that it is a in-world Gloranthan truth that widespread and developed cults provide a wider selection of distinctive magic. In the excellent current Chaosium live play, the loud and angry Vingan absolutely out-stealthed the stoic Odaylan hunter. Her use of Dark Walk let her casually stroll through the same patrol the Odaylan had to strain every sinew as a backwoods ninja to avoid.

I am not sure the rules as currently written make it easy reconcile those two goals. Certainly Chaosium are not going to produce the Red Book of Magic volumes 2 to 7 any time soon.

One possible fix is to drop the rule that lets all common magic start as already learnt. Instead, you learn it the same way as any other spell. Common means just that you _can_ learn it from any full rune cult.

This also fixes one pain point I've seen many new players face; all starting characters having access to 20+ spells, none of which they know what they do...

 

 

 

 

 

[Soccercalle]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Odayla is a bear cult that is worshiped as a son of Orlanth. He's usually found as a subcult of Orlanth in Dragon Pass but a few independent minor temples (I know of one on Jerra Hill) and shrines exist. But in Dragon Pass the independent cult is a rounding error.

In Sylila and the nearby provinces, Odayla is a bigger deal, with some 10,000 followers. In Sylila, his cult is comparable in size to Orlanth's. He's also found in Talastar, Anadiki, and Brolia. 

At the end of the day his cult is that of a divine Bear God. His cult was more important in the First Age, when the King Bear cult was a big deal throughout the Pelorian Hill Country and even competed with the Heortling Orlanth cult for a while. But the Heortlings proved their Orlanth magic gave them mastery over the Bear God and now we have Orlanth Thunderous ruling the hill country instead of King Bear. Orlanth became a vehicle for magical exploration and quests, and his cult is broad and deep. Odayla in contrast is one of several Pelorian bear cults (although certainly the most numerous).

Thanks. Will Odayla as a sub-cult of Orlanth be described in the upcoming Cults Book or will we “only” see a longer version of the free-standing Sylila version of the cult? I guess a Dragon Pass-based campaign are more in need of the former.

[FlamingCatOfDeath]

16 hours ago, radmonger said:

The RQ:G rules cover three types of cults; spirit cults, rune cults and sub-cults. I think what you are talking about is the latter; Odayla as a sub-cult. I would agree that that is common. In rules terms, you initiate to the Orlanth rune cult at an Orlanth temple under supervision of an Orlanth priest,. Then you use the Rune Pool awakened by that initiation to cast spells associated with Orlanth's brother Odayla. The maximum size of that Rune Pool is set by your CHA statistic, reflecting the limit where your Unconcious Life is fully busy maintaining your existing mythic associations and so you can't develop new ones

The CHA pool limitation cannot represent the limit of the unconscious life as one can gain another full CHA pool to use by initiating into another cult.

What I was talking about is not Subcult vs rune cult, it is rune cult to a major god vs rune cult to a minor god. While not represented in game mechanics (yet) it is does matter in universe, which we know from Jeff’s unconscious life FB posts.

[Martin Dick]

On 6/30/2022 at 11:22 AM, svensson said:

Where I have trouble with both Odayla and Yinkin is that neither provide either Draw Beast nor Sureshot... which in my mind are pretty automatic for Hunter deities. That's why I advise every hunter character generated in my campaign to go with Foundchild instead. They have a choice in the matter, so why not help them make the smart one?

Haven't seen that at all, I don't play them, but the Yinkini with a bow and the Odaylan with a sling are both lethal hunter/warriors and don't seem to have any particular problems when it comes to hunting. Which is good, because my Orlanthi Thane has a negative Move Silently.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 hours ago, Martin Dick said:

the Yinkini with a bow and the Odaylan with a sling are both lethal hunter/warriors

What is it about their cults that makes them lethal?  Yinkin doesn't even have Bow or Speedart as cult skills / spells.

[Shiningbrow]

14 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

There's nothing begrudging about it. Odayla simply doesn't have a myth where he used the Sandals of Darkness that Orlanth stole. Therefore he doesn't have the spell.

Ummm, have to point out... if you're using the "we don't have a myth for that spell" logic, then very few cults would have any Rune spells - purely because there are no canonical myths for them...

[French Desperate WindChild]

as a player, do you want to be a sniper ? choose a god and an occupation able to provide sniper abilities.

 

Should all hunters kill their preys with missile weapons ?

Should all gods participating in the great hunt be good snipers ? Should even these participants be dedicated to hunt ?

 

In the previous version  I had, Odayla didn't exist. Oh yes there was a name, there was a cult, but this cult was exactly the same than foundchild (from a gameplay perspective). Now we have a different Odayla. We don't lose the hunter god (now "only" named foundchild)

but we have a half wild half barbarian god  called Odayla with other powers than full human hunters look for.. A god able to destroy with brutality any close ennemy or prey or predator, able to cut a tree with his hands or to open a door, or even a thin wall, without any tool.

 

And that's the same with Yinkin. Is Yinkin a hunter ? no he is a beast. A beast able to hunt with his own abilities (from a hide, ambushing) , able to seduce, able to "visit" places when he is not welcome.

 

so yes hunters pc have a god to help them to become distant killers. This god is Foundchild.

If players want to play more exotic character, they can choose other options.

And that's the same with any occupation.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

What is it about their cults that makes them lethal?  Yinkin doesn't even have Bow or Speedart as cult skills / spells.

Yinkin receives Speedart from Odayla and Foundchild as associated cults. They can get training from both in both Missile Weapon (at full price). The usual benefit of cult skills is that training is cheaper.

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Ummm, have to point out... if you're using the "we don't have a myth for that spell" logic, then very few cults would have any Rune spells - purely because there are no canonical myths for them...

I'm not using that logic. It's not about what we-as-game-players know. We might not know those myths, but Gloranthans do. There are millions of myths in Glorantha.

I don't know the myth telling how Issaries got Flight from Orlanth. That myth may not have been written by anyone in our world. But someone has decided that such a myth exists in Glorantha, and so Issaries gets that spell. Likewise they decided that Odayla does not have a well known myth for getting Sandals of Darkness from Orlanth, so the cult doesn't get that spell by default. There may be a subcult somewhere that does know such a myth, but it isn't known in the area for which the cult writeup was created.

Unless you are saying that no associate cult spell access should exist without the writer actually coming up with the details of the myth for us to read? How much longer do you want the cults book to be delayed for? And do you really want the tribe to be denied the opportunity of filling in these creative details for ourselves?

Edited July 1, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Akhôrahil]

Variant solution: create a stealth rune spell for Yinkin (the fit should be obvious), then have Yinkin provide it to Odayla as associated cult. This avoids the conceptual issues with Dark Walk.

Or just decide that you want to go with the function. It doesn’t seem like there was one original Shield, Divination, Heal Wound or Extension spell that was passed around the gods - it’s just effects that can be achieved by multiple cults. The same might be decided for Dark Walk - sure, trolls have a way to hide in shadows and darkness, but you know what, so do cats. It’s not like Yelmalio got Catseye from Yinkin or vice  versa - it’s just a “see in the dark” spell, achieved in different ways. Dark Walk could potentially just be regarded as a “hide in the dark” spell, regardless of origin.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[svensson]

Guys, we're over thinking this. Again.

Yinkin is Orlanth's brother, both sons of Kero Fin. If you want Dark Walk just initiate into Orlanth and choose the spell.

Or just add Dark Walk and Catseye to Yinkin In Your Glorantha.

It really is just that simple.

[radmonger]

4 hours ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

The CHA pool limitation cannot represent the limit of the unconscious life as one can gain another full CHA pool to use by initiating into another cult.

As I understand it, the underlying purpose and philosophy of the caps is the prevent heroquest becoming mere super-Runequest. To defeat the Bat, the intended approach is not that you simply grind out enough game sessions that you can cast a strong enough Shield spell to ignore its attacks. Instead, you go on a quest that reveals/creates the myth of 'How Orlanth tricked the Bat'. The move from Rune Lord to Hero is not like D&D 'leveling up' but a side-wise move into diversity and uniqueness. You can hero quest as a peasant or child, and gain some ability you can't learn from any cult or temple. You might well still lose in a fight to a powered up Humakti, but still, you can do something they can't.

If you can ignore those caps by simply double-culting, that's a clear rules bug requiring an errata. There is no point in having a rule about a cap that is so easy to workaround. A runelord with two full-sized rune pools is like a shaman with two fetches; a scary thing indeed. Instead, it is the the sum of all rune pools should be bound by the CHA cap.

This also means you don't need to write into the rules an objective ruling as to what is or isn't a major god (as opposed to a major cult). A god is majorly important _to you_ if you know a lot of their myths and can cast a lot of their magic. If Odayla is minor in Sartar and major in Sylila, then you don't have to reorganise your unconscious when you go on a road trip. Instead, you get adventure possibilities and a reason to take that trip.

A truly minor cult that only provides a few spells (at any temple, anywhere in the world) is, by definition, never to be a major contribution to the CHA cap of any worshipper. So they are never going to be the center of anyone's  unconscious life.

In Runequest terms, they get written up as a subcult. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

What is it about their cults that makes them lethal?  Yinkin doesn't even have Bow or Speedart as cult skills / spells.

Rune spells aren't the end of everything. There are no spells that enable a hunter to bring back a dangerous prey alive for the Great Hunt, it is a call to ingenuity and personal achievements that neither Yinkin, Odayla or Votank further. Maybe, just maybe, Foundchild might in her myths.

Odayla accepts all spirit magic, and might allow its followers to roam the spirit world in bear shape. Yinkin draws on companionship with his sibling's allies.

But overall, the Great Hunt is a challenge or training ground for explorative heroquesting, for making personal Otherworld connections to help with the great achievements.

[PhilHibbs]

6 minutes ago, radmonger said:

As I understand it, the underlying purpose and philosophy of the caps is the prevent heroquest becoming mere super-Runequest. To defeat the Bat, the intended approach is not that you simply grind out enough game sessions that you can cast a strong enough Shield spell to ignore its attacks. Instead, you go on a quest that reveals/creates the myth of 'How Orlanth tricked the Bat'...

If you can ignore those caps by simply double-culting, that's a clear rules bug requiring an errata. There is no point in having a rule about a cap that is so easy to workaround.

You still can't cast a 40 point Shield spell with two 20-point RP pools, so it isn't entirely a workaround. But I agree it isn't quite right.

[Akhôrahil]

8 minutes ago, radmonger said:

If you can ignore those caps by simply double-culting, that's a clear rules bug requiring an errata. There is no point in having a rule about a cap that is so easy to workaround.

I agree with this. CHA as a limit makes sense; having an easy workaround for it doesn’t.

[svensson]

Why is initiating into two cults 'an easy workaround'?

Firstly, that's 20% of your income, up to 4 weeks a year, and double the holy days just to stay in good standing.

Secondly, no cult provides for each and every need of their cultists. No cult is so all-encompassing as to be able to address every single aspect of the mortal life cultists live. Orlanth doesn't have a great Fertility aspect [other than being the male half of the equation]. Yelm doesn't sneak so well. Ernalda doesn't have much of a warrior aspect. This is why the gods have associated deities. This is especially true of niche 'occupation /trade' cults like Yinkin or Gustbran. If your primary deity is one of these cults, there will be gaps in your magical skill and spell sets.

Accept that. It's a major part of the Gloranthan mythological landscape.

Cult membership, no matter how many or how few cults you initiate in, isn't a workaround. It implies a major commitment of time and resources and referees should rigidly enforce those commitments. Hand-waving the holy days does make it a 'workaround'. Religious events in societies without literacy or the Scientific Method are the central calendar by which everyone measures their days. The High Holy Day of Orlanth is just as important planting crops and getting the harvest in to the peoples living in Glorantha, and player characters are not immune to that basic fact of Gloranthan life.

[Jeff]

Odayla is worshiped by hunters because he is a Bear. He teaches Peaceful Cut and participates in the Great Hunt. And worshipers can potentially become bears.