Abusing Earthpower spell

[DucksMustDie]

What's to stop a priestess of Ernalda from using Earthpower repeatedly to draw POW from Earth? Say she makes a binding enchantment costing 3 POW. She then uses her mp:s to zero, falls to ground and uses 5 RPs to Earthpower, drawing 3 POW from Earth. She then sacrifices the POW she gained to whatever she fancies, prays her rune points back, and does it again 🙂 The spell isn't one use or temporal, so this seems possible 

[soltakss]

Personally, I have always house ruled it so that you get POW if your POW reaches 0 and you get Magic Points of your MPs reach 0.

[Squaredeal Sten]

Per RBOM page 45 it is for "a time of mortal or existential peril".  And allows drawing one POW plus 1d8 Magic Points.

To me most times of mortal peril won't provide the leisure to pray her magic points back.

And the single POW would not provide the 3 rune points she needs to immediately do it again.

If she invokes Earthpower when she is not actually in peril she may expect no answer from the god.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
My phone's spelling scrambler.

[DucksMustDie]

8 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

And allows drawing one POW plus 1d8 Magic Points.

Plus 1 POW and 1d8 mps per stacked rune point. Some mortal perils seem to be worse than others, since you can draw max 19 POW if you have 21 rune points. Some official ruling on this would be nice

[TrvShane]

Being as the POW disappears at the end of the duration I would say it's not really possible to sacrifice temporary POW - not much of a sacrifice, really.

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, TrvShane said:

Being as the POW disappears at the end of the duration I would say it's not really possible to sacrifice temporary POW - not much of a sacrifice, really.

Having the POW disappear at the end of the duration is a bit rubbish.

As a Storm Bull, I fight Chaos that sucks the POW out of me, driving me to 0 POW and turning me into undead, but Ernalda saves me and gives me 1 POW back! Yippee! But I lose the POW when the spell expires, so I go down to POW 0 and die. Great.

Also, it is an Instant spell, so does not have a Duration, so I get the 1 POW for, what, a Strike Rank?

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by soltakss

[Bill the barbarian]

8 minutes ago, soltakss said:

spell

Serious?

[PhilHibbs]

5 hours ago, TrvShane said:

Being as the POW disappears at the end of the duration I would say it's not really possible to sacrifice temporary POW - not much of a sacrifice, really.

There is no duration. It's instant, and any MP above your POW are gone when they are spent. So technically you could be going around with tons of MP above your POW for as long as you like, not that high MP is that valuable any more as you use POW for resistance not MP.

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

...But I lose the POW when the spell expires, so I go down to POW 0 and die. Great.

Also, it is an Instant spell, so does not have a Duration, so I get the 1 POW for, what, a Strike Rank?

No, you keep the POW and the MP. The writeup in RBOM removes the line "The POW disappears at the end of the spell’s duration", I suspect that's a copy-paste from an old edition, possibly when "POW" meant "Battle Magic POW" i.e. MPs. Hm, can't find an RQ2 writeup, I don't think Ernalda was ever published, and it's not there in the Gods of Glorantha writeup so I'm wrong. Maybe the spell had duration at some point in the development of RQG.

[TrvShane]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

The writeup in RBOM removes the line "The POW disappears at the end of the spell’s duration",

That's interesting. In the PDF I have that line is still there, but in the hardcopy it isn't. I guess I was looking at an older version of the PDF. I should re-download the newer version. Thanks for pointing that out.

[svensson]

Whatever the spell definition, I'm prepared to house-rule against such misuse.

No set of rules is perfect or exact. It's amazing the effect that one misplaced comma can have in a rules definition. Don't get me wrong here... I'm not a 'rules lawyer' type. But I'm not gonna let someone exploit a typo either. As with all things, there is a balance that needs to be struck.

In the case of trying to abuse Earthpower, I might rule that the spell becomes Nonstackable, for example, or that it can only effect the same target once every 24 hours. In all cases, my goal is to be firm, reasonable, and consistent with the ruling. At my table, I try very hard to write the bigger rulings down so that I stay consistent with them.

[HreshtIronBorne]

I mean, mythologically it brought Urox back from the dead to fight Wakboth to a standstill/smashing his butt with the block. So, I err on the side of making it freaking AWESOME!

 

I don't know if it is in the RQ:G spell description but, I would HUGELY play up the fact that this 1 spell is why the Wastes of Prax are... Wastes. It specifically destroyed the life giving energies of the lands all around Urox for a HUGE area. Now, your run of the mill Ernaldan ain't gonna be affecting that big an area but, who in their right mind in the clan would stand by and casually let someone continuously stab/maim/pillage Ernalda and her life giving vitality for the greedy purpose of, making personal enchantments and other power gamey nonsense?

[Scotty]

23 hours ago, DucksMustDie said:

What's to stop a priestess of Ernalda from using Earthpower repeatedly to draw POW from Earth? Say she makes a binding enchantment costing 3 POW. She then uses her mp:s to zero, falls to ground and uses 5 RPs to Earthpower, drawing 3 POW from Earth. She then sacrifices the POW she gained to whatever she fancies, prays her rune points back, and does it again 🙂 The spell isn't one use or temporal, so this seems possible 

Note that when your adventurer's POW reaches zero, they die. When your adventurer's magic points reach zero, they become unconscious. 

If the caster is not in mortal or existential peril, then the spell doesn't work. Your GM is the adjudicator on this. Your above example is neither.

If your POW has not been depleted, you won't get any more back, this is not a loophole to increase your adventurer's POW.

22 hours ago, DucksMustDie said:

Plus 1 POW and 1d8 mps per stacked rune point. Some mortal perils seem to be worse than others, since you can draw max 19 POW if you have 21 rune points. Some official ruling on this would be nice

There is nothing preventing the stacked spell using as many Rune points as wanted by the player. If you have reached zero POW, that is a serious situation. Likewise reaching zero magic points would render the adventurer unconscious, getting an excess of magic points may save the day.

In the theoretical scenario of your human adventurer having 21 rune points (assuming species max CHA), they can regain  up to 19 points of their POW. They would also receive 19D8 magic points. 

Added to the Q&A

[Scotty]

11 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't think Ernalda was ever published, and it's not there in the Gods of Glorantha writeup so I'm wrong.

As Joerg mentioned, the RQ3 version was in the Ernalda cult write up in Book 5 of the Deluxe Boxed set:

Quote

Earth power

3 Points

One-use Only. Special

Once bought, this is an automatic spell. The spell activates the first time that the priestess touches the ground and her magic points or her POW drop to zero, It activates exactly as her POW drops to zero, preventing destruction of her soul, and allowing her to draw 1 POW and 108 magic points directly from the earth. If she has more than one Earthpower spell, all activate at once.

[DucksMustDie]

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

They would also receive 21D8 magic points. I'm not sure where you got 19 from

The base spell costs 3 RPs, and you get 1 POW and 1d8 mps ? Each stacked RP on top of that gets you the same. So, using 21 RPs  should get you 1+18 POW and 1d8+18d8 mps? If my math sucks, pardon 

Perhaps my example of the abuse wasn't the best possible, pardon that also. I just think the spell should have a limit on how many RPs you can stack with it, or the spell should be one use. It seems cheap to me, no matter how mortal the peril is, that you can just draw the 19 POW from earth and just pray your RPs back 

Edited September 4, 2022 by DucksMustDie

[French Desperate WindChild]

21 hours ago, DucksMustDie said:

What's to stop a priestess of Ernalda from using Earthpower repeatedly to draw POW from Earth

don't know how far from the official rules I am but

1) with me, you cannot burn any of your characteristic (STR, POW, mp, ...) if it is not for a sacrifice (I accept to die - or to risk my life, being inconscious, etc...  - to save my friend, for example) so no you cannot lose your mp to 0 (or even your pow).

 

2) the goddess is not dumb, after one or two "calls" (if you are able to trick my first rule) the goddess will be angry... reprisals, gnomes, snakes, T Rex,  no more spells, a babs "friend", curse like -50% penalty on all CHA related skills -seduction, orate, ... - ? all depend on what you did for the goddess before and why you do such blasphemy.

 

[DucksMustDie]

Well, one thing is certain. Join Ernalda ! Join today ! 😄

[Scotty]

2 hours ago, DucksMustDie said:

The base spell costs 3 RPs, and you get 1 POW and 1d8 mps ? Each stacked RP on top of that gets you the same. So, using 21 RPs  should get you 1+18 POW and 1d8+18d8 mps? If my math sucks, pardon 

Perhaps my example of the abuse wasn't the best possible, pardon that also. I just think the spell should have a limit on how many RPs you can stack with it, or the spell should be one use. It seems cheap to me, no matter how mortal the peril is, that you can just draw the 19 POW from earth and just pray your RPs back 

I completely forgot about the 3rp cost, thanks!

[PhilHibbs]

21 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Hm, can't find an RQ2 writeup, I don't think Ernalda was ever published,

9 hours ago, Scotty said:

As Joerg mentioned, the RQ3 version was in the Ernalda cult write up in Book 5 of the Deluxe Boxed set:

Yeah that's RQ3. I was looking for an RQ2 writeup.

[Scotty]

On 9/4/2022 at 7:23 PM, PhilHibbs said:

I was looking for an RQ2 writeup.

Oops, it's in Cults of Prax (Classic page 22), in Storm Bull, IX, Associate cults, E. Ernalda...

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Oops, it's in Cults of Prax (Classic page 22), in Storm Bull, IX, Associate cults, E. Ernalda...

Aha, I didn't think to look for it as an associate cult.

So the RQ2 writeup just says "1D8 POW", since MP was called Battle Magic POW. I think most of the time POW meant MP, and "characteristic POW" or "permanent POW" would be used for what we now just call POW.

[Akhôrahil]

I think a reasonable reading is that you can only regain the type that just dropped to 0, so if you get to 0 MP (easily happens in spirit combat) you can only regain MP. Dropping to 0 POW is far less common (and I would argue you cannot do it voluntarily, although it could happen due to DI).

So you could pick up expensive MPs in a spirit combat emergency, and repair (possibly even exceedingly the original) POW against the rare soul destroying opponent.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[PhilHibbs]

6 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Dropping to 0 POW is far less common (and I would argue you cannot do it voluntarily, although it could happen due to DI).

I was going to say "No it can't" - but them I re-read the rules, and yes it can for initiates. Since Rune Priests lose RP first, then if they hit zero POW then they can't cast Earthpower since by definition they don't have any RP left!

And whether you would prefer to survive on 1 POW (or a few more, if you had spare RP beyond the initial 3), or go join your deity immediately in the afterlife, is an open question...

Edited September 6, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Nick Brooke]

Generic answer, apologies.

Q: "What's to stop me abusing [spell]?"

A: "Your GM is there to stop you abusing [spell]." 

They can do it by telling you not to be silly, by house-ruling, by explaining that the spell doesn't work that way, by siccing a cult spirit of retribution on you, by invoking social pressure from NPCs who know what your character is attempting (inc. clan leaders, cult superiors and the like). It's what they're there for. In extremis, of course, they do it by showing you the door.

See the first pages of my first Gloranthan Manifesto. If you're ignoring the bit of the writeup that says "in a time of mortal or existential peril," then I'll cheerfully ignore all the other bits describing how the spell works, because it doesn't.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I was going to say "No it can't" - but them I re-read the rules, and yes it can for initiates. Since Rune Priests lose RP first, then if they hit zero POW then they can't cast Earthpower since by definition they don't have any RP left!

Typically, another entity will cast Earthpower on you? Storm Bull received the magic from Eiritha, as he was incapacitated.

Unless he simultaneously activated the mystical second breath all storm deities have.

 

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

And whether you would prefer to survive on 1 POW (or a few more, if you had spare RP beyond the initial 3), or go join your deity immediately in the afterlife, is an open question...

Participating in worship on a single MP will be rather difficult (but possible, e.g. if you trade for Absorption and your friends cast a few Disrupts at you in preparation for your MP sacrifice), but with the Sacred Time POW gain you might be a little better.

[g33k]

On 9/4/2022 at 6:00 AM, DucksMustDie said:

Well, one thing is certain. Join Ernalda ! Join today ! 😄

Hers isn't *quite* the "combat monster" Cult that several others are, but Ernalda is in many ways the "strongest" Cult of all.

This is intentional, and reflects the realities of Glorantha.