Cults of RuneQuest Marketing Strategy

[soltakss]

23 hours ago, Revilo Divad Of Dyoll said:

On 4/18/2023 at 4:01 PM, Rick Meints said:

As the head of Nostalgia

That is just a great job title.

It's not as good as it used to be, though.

[DrGoth]

Serious question - when will the prosopaedia be available for purchase online?

[metcalph]

46 minutes ago, DrGoth said:

Serious question - when will the prosopaedia be available for purchase online?

When the book becomes available for purchase at chaosium.com - which has been said to be in July.

[Squaredeal Sten]

58 minutes ago, metcalph said:

When the book becomes available for purchase at chaosium.com - which has been said to be in July.

See MOB's March 1 thread. Just "July".  

 

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten

[Shiningbrow]

On 4/19/2023 at 1:32 AM, Jeff said:

Shiningbrow is welcome to hold me "for trial" for whatever he thinks I should have done. But to keep to the lawyerly metaphor, I am inclined to move for dismissal for failure to state a claim.

wow! I really hope you pay actual lawyers at Chaosium...

On 4/15/2023 at 3:16 PM, Shiningbrow said:

For some, the long-term fans' real needs were completely ignored for the last X years).

Their focus has been on trying to get new (more) fans (well, their money!), rather than appealing to those of us who have hung on for those decades.

This was in the post only a mere 5 above the one you took my quote from!

Now, before I get in to detail, I do feel I need to stress something here... while this time it's me who is doing all of this whinging and complaining, it *needs* to be noted that I am not, and have not been over the last few years that this topic keeps arising, the only one expressing these thoughts! (I'm not going to go over the last 5 years of threads to find them, but those who are regulars here will know what I'm talking about). So, dismissing my thoughts/opinions/arguments is also doing the same to those other fans (which, as I posted above is the 'disdain' I was talking about.

 

So, now let's look at this with a less than emotional eye... How much of the following books are 100%, brand-spanking, never before seen material - and not merely tweaks from RQ2/3??? As in, something a fan from 10-30 years ago would not have seen, and therefore is paying for when they purchase those books.... (and not just the pretty pictures or glossy paper).

On 4/19/2023 at 1:32 AM, Jeff said:

Starting from scratch in 2018, we have published Glorantha Sourcebook (2018), RuneQuest (2018), Bestiary (2018), GM Adventures Pack (2018), Smoking Ruins (2019), Pegasus Plateau (2020), Red Book of Magic (2020), Starter Set (2021), and Weapons and Equipment (2022). We now have the Prosopaedia (2023), Lightbringers (2023), Earth Goddesses (2023), and Mythology (2023). That comes out to a little over two RQ books a year on average,

Glorantha Sourcebook... nice! I like it, although rarely use it. I can't put a percentage for what's actually new... However, I am aware that there are chunks which are quite old clearly old ... 40 years old...

Runequest (2018) - As many threads have pointed out for the C&P, 70-80% of this is RQ2, with a tweak to RQ3's sorcery. What's new? Family background, the emphasis and use of  Runes, Passions, Augments, some shamanism, I think some bits in 'Between Adventures'...

Bestiary (2018) - again, 70-80% we've already seen before! Honestly, I think the only thing that's sort of 'new' is the chapter on spirits, and that's still largely a tweaking of the old rules! So, I think I should change that percentage up to 90%.

GM Adventures Pack (2018), Smoking Ruins (2019), Pegasus Plateau (2020) - Ok, now we're getting somewhere with something relatively new - adventures! Something fans will want, and have asked for!  (still some old stuff was tweaked...) Thank you!! (yes, sincerely too!)

Red Book of Magic (2020) - RQ2, and two-thirds of RQ3's Book of Magic... with pretty pictures. Frankly, I rarely look at this book because I already know what most of those spells do - bar the tweaking!

Starter Set (2021) - Firstly, it's a cut-down RQG. Book 1, Book 2 and the references sheets have all been seen before. Thank you for the Books 3 & 4. Half of the Pre-gens were in RQG...

Weapons and Equipment (2022) - Once again, is actually new for the fan of 10-40 years ago here, but also a large chunk we saw decades ago.

Prosopaedia (2023) - I'm not sure how much of that will be new/different to Cults Compendium... but I'm expecting not a lot (or found in other books, like Cults of Terror, Cults of Prax, etc)

Lightbringers (2023) - I'll be surprised if there's much more than 25% I haven't already seen or read.

Earth Goddesses (2023) - as above...

Mythology (2023) - this I can't really comment on....

 

So, that's a quick breakdown on the viewpoint a number of longer-time fans have (or would) express over the last 5 years on this forum - that other people have started or asked about.

The big question now is (in relation to my claim) - what have long-time RQ fans actually been asking for??? I'm sure some have asked for what you posted above in that list. However, if there's ONE thing that keeps getting called for more than anything else, it's been the HQ rules.

What's been done for those officially? Well, I'll keep saying this, as I've said it before... in only the first couple of years that Mongoose had the rights, they published two books with HQ rules, including a large section devoted to sample heroquests for a large number of cults. Those rules covered about 50 pages in total (IIRC).

 

My case is - Chaosium have not put the interests and wishes of the RQ fans above that of getting new fans (money).

It is not that they haven't put out new material, nor that I don't like the products that have (or will) come out. Nor that I dislike it, or won't buy it.

It's simply that the priority is not on prioritising the loyal fans of 10-40 years.

I believe I have provided sufficient evidence to prove my point.

The one thing that fans have consistently asked for is the one thing that hasn't been published in the last 5 years (and won't be *soon*).

And I don't know if that's ever going to change...

 

And, I need to point out that when RQ first came out, some of us here were quite young. Others, however, were not. And I think it would be a shame for those long-time fans to not see and play those HQ rules - the thing they've been wanting most of all - before they die. I'm fairly certain I won't see them....

 

(and, of course, a HUGE thank you to Mongoose, and especially Simon Phipp @soltakss for his awesome book(s - not just Secrets, but also the others you've put out... I'll be throwing some money your way soon, I think, on the Holiday series)

 

[MOB]

On 4/13/2023 at 2:34 AM, g33k said:

n.b. regarding the "single push" vs "PDF-1st + coupon-for-hardcopy" marketing strategies:  please note that Chaosium has tried this both ways.

They have data in-hand, and are making a solid evidence-based decision.  I cannot fault them for this.

We do. And - where possible - for new products we're aiming to do a single release and single marketing push as the default, rather than the PDF followed by physical model. In cases where we don't, we have compelling reasons why. Sometimes this is related to specific marketing imperatives, sometimes other factors such as licensing obligations.

On 4/18/2023 at 4:42 PM, Jason Farrell said:

More like we can see it if we squint.  As we sit here, unless we were one of the 50 odd people in Ann Arbor recently or a social media influencer, we still haven't gotten a new book since late 2021.

But plenty of amazing independent content being released on the Jonstown Compendium in the mean time!

[g33k]

18 hours ago, soltakss said:

It's not as good as it used to be, though.

My all-time-favorite RPG-company job title comes from Atlas Games' head of marketing:  Minister of Disinformation

[g33k]

23 minutes ago, MOB said:

...

But plenty of amazing independent content being released on the Jonstown Compendium in the mean time!

While I am one of those waiting patiently... well, semi-patiently... for new Chaosium titles, I can see the other side of things too:  Chaosium hasn't been producing content at anything like the 4 titles per year rate they have publicly stated (as an intention).

I am entirely-aware that there's good reason for this, and I do not blame Chaosium, nor "hold them for trial."

 

But it should be acknowledged that -- particularly for many n00bs coming to RuneQuest for the 1st time (for example, from D&Dland) -- there is ample scope for confusion & doubt on this point... if they just look up publications on the internet, it looks like there was a brief surge then things tapered-off alarmingly:

• 4 x 2018
• 1 x 2019
• 2 x 2020
• 1 x 2021
• 1 x 2022

And the JC on DTRPG -- which is amazing content, and I'm thrilled to have it all available -- just "doesn't count" for many.  Some because it's too "non-canonical," but for others it's either a mis-belief that it's all "lower-quality," or for n00b's it can simply be not something they're aware of, or take into account in any way.

It's almost entirely an "appearances" thing (and first-appearances at that; once someone realizes the wealth of playable content on the JC, they have very little ground for complaint!).  But as they say:  "you've only got one chance to make a first impression" and the robustness (for lack of a better word) of the RQG product-line doesn't make a very good first impression.

I think Chaosium could go a long way to alleviate this by throwing "Community Feature" sub-pages onto the RQ pages, rather than just a top-level CC link as they do now.  Direct-link (with image & blurb) to (specifically-POD'able) titles on the JC.  It would dramatically-increase the size & scope of apparent RQ/Gloranthan library.

[Joerg]

32 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

How much of the following books are 100%, brand-spanking, never before seen material - and not merely tweaks from RQ2/3?

A valid question.

 

32 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Glorantha Sourcebook... nice! I like it, although rarely use it. I can't put a percentage for what's actually new... However, I am aware that there are chunks which are quite old clearly old ... 40 years old...

What's new here: The histories of DP have added about 50% compared to King of Sartar, and have removed the weird mis-information bits. 

The God series from Wyrm's Footnotes has been added to slightly, even comparing to the Wyrm's Footprints best-of collection of the Footnotes by Reaching Moon Megacorp.

I don't think I have seen the sixth to eight Wane texts before, and the accompanying maps are new and previously unpublished.

Agrath's companions and the Sartar Magical Union bits are new.

The illustrations - especially the Takenegi Stele ones in the histories, but also the mythical maps - add quite a bit. So do the genealogies.

Given the rather low distribution of Wyrm's Footnotes prior to the release of the scanned versions, much of the old stuff was new to even some of the old fogeys.

New to me: up to 30%.

 

32 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Runequest (2018) - As many threads have pointed out for the C&P, 70-80% of this is RQ2, with a tweak to RQ3's sorcery. What's new? Family background, the emphasis and use of  Runes, Passions, Augments, some shamanism, I think some bits in 'Between Adventures'...

RQG is about 400 pages, RQ2 is about 100 pages - it would be fair that RQG contains 70-80% of RQ2, but hardly vice versa. Some of the expanded descriptions of the skills may have come from RQ3, but who cares?

The skill list is similar, but has changed. Most of the lores of RQ3 are absent. RQ2 defense is absent. Separate attack/parry skills are absent.

RQ3 sorcery is absent - there are no skills for intensity, duration, range, or multispell, the only thing in common is that spells are standalone magic skills.

Also absent from RQ3 are the easy algorithms that would calculate skill bonuses, hit points etc., instead we regress to the break point tables from RQ2. While the SIZ effect on hit points in RQ3 may have been problematic, in RQ3 I never had to look up location hit points if I knew the general hit points. They were 2/5, 1/3, 1/4 or 1/6 of the total hit points, and easy to remember.

The rules are illustrated, with the illustrations actually relating to the rules or to Vasana's story (which has replaced Rurik's and Cormac's stories). Vasana's story provides background integration.

Rules for augmenting are new. (There may be too many of these rules, making something that should be simple rather fiddly, but...)

Runes are used for other purposes than illustration. (And illustrations are used for other purposes than mere decoration.)

Spirit Magic and Rune Magic spell lists may have the least changes (if you add the spell lists from Cults of Prax and parts of RQ3 Gods of Glorantha).

Any Bestiary stuff is absent from this book.

Shamanism is completely new.

There may be some cut and paste in this book, but less than 25%, and maybe as much re-written from scratch repeats of earlier editions. Which is ok, otherwise this game would not have been called RuneQuest or be seen in its continuity. So, more than 50% NEW stuff.

 

32 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Bestiary (2018) - again, 70-80% we've already seen before! Honestly, I think the only thing that's sort of 'new' is the chapter on spirits, and that's still largely a tweaking of the old rules! So, I think I should change that percentage up to 90%.

There is a bit more cut and paste here, from the RQ3 Elder Races Book and the RQ3 Glorantha Bestiary, including some art. The short forms of the cults resembles the RQ3 Gods of Glorantha short forms, and do provide continuity while addressing necessary changes due to the new ways of the rules. (And I won't imagine the howls if there was less continuity with many of these cults.)

There are a few newer creatures here that have never seen any RuneQuest treatment, but most of the old ones are covered.

There is a lot more of cut and paste here than in the rules book, but then why change texts that were better than just adequate in earlier editions?

There are illustrations. Lots of those, all on topic (unlike say the Mongoose color vignettes), most of them new. Because colors...

I'll agree to your earlier estimate, with 30% new text, 95% new illustrations, and possibly 40% text taken over verbatim.

 

32 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

GM Adventures Pack (2018), Smoking Ruins (2019), Pegasus Plateau (2020) - Ok, now we're getting somewhere with something relatively new - adventures! Something fans will want, and have asked for!  (still some old stuff was tweaked...) Thank you!! (yes, sincerely too!)

Something most old fans will be able to do themselves, or take from other players (as in the Jonstown Compendium on Drivethru). Produced by a mix of new and established writers for RQ, with the usual holes banged into canon by things the authors thought would be cool or necessary for their concept.

GM Adventures Pack: about 30% old stuff, including a nostalgic defense of Apple Lane, against a less weird opposition this time. And some denting of canon. I thought I had an idea who was king of the Colymar after Leika, but now I have no idea any more. Luckily, whoever it was got eaten by the dragon, so bygones.

TSR: two new mini-campaigns, one elaboration of a cameo from Elder Secrets (the aldryami grove) put into greater Gloranthan context.

Some more gazetteer-like stuff, with a few previously published entries (e.g. Scholar Wyrm) put more firmly into context, quite a few cultic practices mentioned but never explained. If this many Beastmen worship Arachne Solara, what does that mean for player character ones?

Factually wrong statements in the titular scenario backstory, but a wholly unexpected twist of what used to be some dry historical event.

The Lost Valley is a weird insert into the Grazelands, but works fine if you regard it as a Hidden Green-like location that requires certain entry conditions to have avoided Grazer domination/oppression for the time of its existence. Another Apple Lane-vibes starting location or adoptive home base with a little bit of everything.

Urvantan is the sample sorcerer for this edition of sorcery, and a lot more consistent and believable than his predecessor in that role, Arlaten from Strangers in Prax. Unfortunately, this doesn't pan out that well for his sorcerous opposition.

PP: Other than small bits from previous gazetteers or HQ-era NPC descriptions, almost all new. Including the first scenario playing in Prax mainly outside of the Zola Fel Valley, a radical departure from previous treatments of Prax other than Biturian's Travels.

The amount and quality of the material on the Jonstown Compendium was not foreseeable when these adventure books were produced, which means they were necessary. With the JTC having taken off like it did, and the quality quite professional in many offerings and otherwise written by GMs for GMs, the subsequent lapse in Adventure production is a good decision, as it would take quite a bit of effort to outshine the community content. Things are in the pipeline supporting the metaplot, and have been there for years, including essential setting books like Pavis or Troll Pack (other than reprints of RQ2 Troll Pak).

Illustrations: some new, some reprinted (and at least one wrongly reprinted, showing the wrong Chan sister in the Colymar Adventures), many Colymar worthies repeated in TSR.

 

32 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Red Book of Magic (2020) - RQ2, and two-thirds of RQ3's Book of Magic... with pretty pictures. Frankly, I rarely look at this book because I already know what most of those spells do - bar the tweaking!

Mainly utilitarian, with some rules updates/improvements vs. the core rules, making it a necessary GM source at the more rules-lawyery tables. RQ3 Book of Magic (DeLuxe box) had maybe half of these (mainly spirit magic), RQ3 Gods of Glorantha provided many of the rune spells (and imagine those would have been missing), but there seems to be a lot more community-based improvement on the descriptions. The preview of the Cults Books, with 90% of this content to be found again in the cults books.

 

32 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Starter Set (2021) - Firstly, it's a cut-down RQG. Book 1, Book 2 and the references sheets have all been seen before. Thank you for the Books 3 & 4. Half of the Pre-gens were in RQG...

Shorter rules, even slightly shorter than the very concise RQ2 - something RQG needed. Badly. (Still way too many skills, but a much less intimidating if in the long run less practical character sheet.)

Gloranta introduction: before the Jonstown material, a whole lot more than RQ2 ever offered, but necessarily (next to) nothing new to people familiar with the world. For those, we get an overview description of Jonstown, though not hardly on the detail level of Pavis (which still is way less than Chaosium published in Thieves World or the Midkemia Press reprint City of Carse). For old fogeys, Book 2 has the most to offer, as adventures are a fleeting pleasure. (And one of the Book 4 adventures gives you a chance to fight senescent trollkin already in print since the beginning of RuneQuest in the same cave system.)

The pregens from the Quickstart repeated again, presented a lot more accessibly now, focussing on what they are about rather than giving the whole skill list. If the two versions were consistent with one another, one could give the players both...

 

32 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Weapons and Equipment (2022) - Once again, is actually new for the fan of 10-40 years ago here, but also a large chunk we saw decades ago.

For something so dryly titled, maybe 20% previously printed (and a bit of that in the RQG rules book). Perhaps the most innovative of the new offerings.

 

There were a few freebies that you left unmentioned, with the Rattling WInd a preview for Pegasus Plateau, the Whispering Caves possibly too obscure to find.

There is a distinct lack of such downloadable freebies right now, which should be amended in order to lessen the feeling of being abandoned. The four parts of the Cults Book feel to me like half a publication after three years of anytime soon now the Red Book is out.. But hey, I can hardly keep up with the Jonstown publications I did buy.

 

Release dates for everything before W&E are difficult because pdf preceded print, skewing the perceptions of the fan-base, which may have contributed to the feeling of being underfed by the company itself (while able to be gorging yourself on community content beyond what even the most fanatical GM can run while things come out, although less so if you can only read from dead aldryami). As a mostly digital customer these days, having to wait for paper to be shipped is annoying.

 

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

It's simply that the priority is not on prioritising the loyal fans of 10-40 years.

Priority can't be given out even-handedly by its nature.

Attracting new players, new GMs and new writers is necessary to remain to be able to pay those new artists recruited by Chaosium. Refusal to acknowledge the volume and overall quality of the community content program is weird. My fellow God Learner host Ludovic has been putting out a weekly newsletter covering the scene for more than two years now, and there are things to communicate. Other than D&D, which game/setting has this coverage?

 

Finally, official and consistent rules for HeroQuesting in RuneQuest. Once those are out, I can predict the shouts about "When do we get ready-to-play Heroquesting modules?"

Playtesting and refining the playtesting is something professional game publishers are supposed to do. DIY publishers can put forth "here's how I did it" and call that tested. While Jeff and others have written and GMed heroquests routinely for themselves, it is hard to market a game that requires the author to run it. (Jonathan Tweet's Over The Edge game has been accused of that...)

[soltakss]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, now let's look at this with a less than emotional eye... How much of the following books are 100%, brand-spanking, never before seen material - and not merely tweaks from RQ2/3??? As in, something a fan from 10-30 years ago would not have seen, and therefore is paying for when they purchase those books.... (and not just the pretty pictures or glossy paper).

So, what would make you happy?

Clearly, anything that Chaosium does that includes material covered in previous supplements won't, so we can discard those. Of the Cults, 42% are old and 58% are new, using Dread Domain's great list. Will the 58% new cults please you are are you just going to say "They were in Gods of Glorantha"?

S0, if Chaosium produce anything around Pavis, Prax, Balazar, Elder Wilds, Sartar or Dorastor, you are going to say "That is the same as [supplement]", so they won't please you.

So, that leaves the Lunar Empire, which is vaguely interesting, the West, Kralorela, Pamaltela and East Isles, none of which have any interest to me. Of the Elder Races, many were covered in Elder Secrets, so you'll just say that, so that won't make you happy. What about a Harpy Pack, or a Fox Women pack, those are new so might make you happy.

Maybe HeroQuesting, a subject I am particularly interested in. However, I can see you complaining that it was covered by Mongoose, or in Arcane Lore, or wherever, so even that might not make you happy.

I am genuinely interested in what you want to see, as everything that Chaosium produce you dismiss.

[Wheel Shield]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

This was in the post only a mere 5 above the one you took my quote from!

Now, before I get in to detail, I do feel I need to stress something here... while this time it's me who is doing all of this whinging and complaining, it *needs* to be noted that I am not, and have not been over the last few years that this topic keeps arising, the only one expressing these thoughts! (I'm not going to go over the last 5 years of threads to find them, but those who are regulars here will know what I'm talking about). So, dismissing my thoughts/opinions/arguments is also doing the same to those other fans (which, as I posted above is the 'disdain' I was talking about.

I note it. And for what it's worth, I didn't cotton on that you were speaking to amount of brand new material vs content that would have to be presented again for a contemporary audience (i.e the new people). That was my oversight.
I can't speak to it however, I lost most of my collection prior to the Guide to Glorantha Kickstarter. So I was always going to need to re-purchase content that has been published before. But, I appreciate that might not be true for you. I don't know what to say. I wish it could be otherwise for you, but I don't see how it's feasible to not publish some older content again.

This is my 37th post on this forum, but it doesn't represent my personal investment in Runequest and Glorantha. I'm 55 years old and will be 56 in a few months. I remember getting Borderlands when I was a freshman in high school, shrink wrapped in a box. I have been pissed off about RQ and heroquesting rules and lack of Dragon Pass material and "god knows what else" for the majority of my life. Maybe 75% of my existence on Earth? I have done my share of whining and fist pumping. I don't write that to impress anybody, or a sense of entitlement, or to get a RQ merit badge. I write it because I empathize. With you.

(I even got mad about the scope of heroquest rules when I misinterpreted what someone said, like a couple months ago?)

I feel time slipping away, like it's going faster. You would think that would make me more desperate for the things I want, but actually it just reminds me that I need to enjoy the things I do have and to try to stay positive for the things I'm waiting on. Maybe I'm a sucker or naive, but this time it feels different-specifically with Chaosium and RuneQuest. I think we're going to see some of this long awaited content shake loose.

I didn't set out to argue with you. I just wanted to encourage you (and in so doing encourage myself) to hang in there. I come to this site for good news and to gin up my own excitement. I'd like to run RQG with heroquesting rules in the next few years, for friends who have never played, and for my wife who played with other people before we met but never with me. So I try to be hopeful. Nevertheless, you're entitled to feel the way you feel.

Best wishes, I hope they can publish what you want soon.
 

[mfbrandi]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

weird misinformation bits … official and consistent rules for HeroQuesting … Jonathan Tweet’s Over The Edge

Weird misinformation is good — “a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and rôleplayers and divines.”

Mention of Tweet and OtE makes me think that The Dragon’s Eye is the book I am waiting for and that OtE inspiration the sainted Bill may have all the heroquest rules we need:

Spoiler

Your body is a boat to lay aside when you reach the far shore
Or sell it if you can find a fool
It’s full of holes
It’s full of holes

— William Burroughs

[Rodney Dangerduck]

7 hours ago, soltakss said:

So, what would make you happy?

Shiningbrow has been very clear, at least as I read it, that he (?) wants Heroquest rules.

I agree with him that Chaosium is focusing on bringing in new players.  And I agree with Chaosium on that strategy.  It's slightly disappointing to us old timers, but it makes good sense.

[Martin Dick]

47 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I agree with him that Chaosium is focusing on bringing in new players.  And I agree with Chaosium on that strategy.  It's slightly disappointing to us old timers, but it makes good sense.

100% agree with this, I've been waiting for HeroQuest rules for around 40 years and I'm hoping I'll live to see them but it's clearly a very hard task to get it right. Greg Stafford, one of the most gifted TTRPG designers we've seen, was never able to get them to a place he was happy with. I got to play with an early version and while clearly a lot of thought and effort had gone in to them, they just weren't right. Maybe Mongoose got it right, but Greg clearly didn't think so. 

And while the current Chaosium has to take responsibility since 2015, they took over a company that was on its last legs, brought it back from the dead and got out a high-quality brand new edition of the game in 3 years. Obviously we all would be happier with more publications, but we've also had a world-wide pandemic that has massively disrupted supply chains and made running any international business much much harder. Overall, given the circumstances, they've done a very good job of giving us a Gloranthan rpg. 

[Shiningbrow]

17 hours ago, Joerg said:

Refusal to acknowledge the volume and overall quality of the community content program is weird. My fellow God Learner host Ludovic has been putting out a weekly newsletter covering the scene for more than two years now, and there are things to communicate.

Please don't get me wrong Joerg. I'm not "refusing to acknowledge." I'm merely focussing my argument.

This thread is about Chaosium the company and its marketing (etc.) of official publications. So, I don't see the JC as very relevant to this discussion. (although I can certainly see how it connects)

If I did bring that in, I would say that the JC is a fantastic idea, and there is some awesome stuff on there - stuff that my money has gone into, and will continue to do so (even though I don't get to play! I mean, what does that say that someone who can't even play the damn game is still willing to throw lots of money into it??)

However, one thing that I would be critical of (which I've said before, and hinted at earlier in this thread) is why some of that content can't become canon in Chaosium's eyes? Alternatively (or simultaneously), contact those awesome authors, and get them to produce official (and hence, canonical) works (especially since the only thing that is often lacking in the JC items is the production value. The content itself is great!).

It feels like only one person's view of Glorantha/Runequest is allowed - and that one person must be the master of all that is canon.

If the HQ rules are so difficult that only a handful of people had problems coming with the right feel across many decades, then perhaps it's time that the door be flung open, and to ask for suggestions?? Go to the grognards and ask them "hey, what do you want in Heroquesting? How do you think it should work?"

(just in case someone wants to try to suggest it - hell no, I am not thinking of myself! I am thinking of the people who have already written and published)

 

BTW - thank you for a good, fairly objective reply to my post. I do appreciate the feedback on that!

[Shiningbrow]

10 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Shiningbrow has been very clear, at least as I read it, that he (?) wants Heroquest rules.

I agree with him that Chaosium is focusing on bringing in new players.  And I agree with Chaosium on that strategy.  It's slightly disappointing to us old timers, but it makes good sense.

Thank you Rodney.

Yes, I agree that it makes sense. Possibly even good. And I certainly don't begrudge the want/need for that.

What I am begrudging is the need to focus pretty much all of that attention on bringing them in, instead of diverting some of that attention to the one thing that has been asked for for all these years.

I was thinking of starting up a poll...

Would you have been willing to let the publication of RQG be delayed by 6/12 months to allow for the inclusion of HQ rules?

A) 12 months, not a problem! HQ rules are essential to RQ (and a 12 month wait is nothing on top of 40 years)

B) 6 months would have been ok. I really want them, but they aren't so necessary that I need them now.

C) No, it should have been put out as early as possible, and HQ doesn't make enough difference to my games.

D) No, I don't care about HQ rules anyway

 

Obviously, I'm in the A group.

 

I'd like people to think what our new shiny books would be like if there were those rules in place... RQG would have sample heroquests that we could all work off now. The JC would have a whole stack more of them, and I bet there would be some very specific products that focus purely on those (eg, an Ernalda's compilation of quests). The official adventure publications would probably have had them ("Ashborn Thriceborn went on the XYZ Heroquest, described on p.xx of the RQG, to get his resurrection powers" - or something similar). The various cults books would be much more enjoyable for the old-timers.

 

I'm not saying it needed to be in the RQG itself, but I do think they should have been out already - if the focus and attention was put on it rather than stuff for the newbies to RQ. (and more people allowed into the sacred inner circle - as per my immediately previous post to Joerg).

 

Related:

10 hours ago, Martin Dick said:

Obviously we all would be happier with more publications

That's actually not what I'm suggesting or miffed about. As I just wrote above (here, and in other posts) it's about what's gone into those publications, not so much the number.

[Shiningbrow]

16 hours ago, Wheel Shield said:

I note it. And for what it's worth, I didn't cotton on that you were speaking to amount of brand new material vs content that would have to be presented again for a contemporary audience (i.e the new people). That was my oversight.
I can't speak to it however, I lost most of my collection prior to the Guide to Glorantha Kickstarter. So I was always going to need to re-purchase content that has been published before. But, I appreciate that might not be true for you. I don't know what to say. I wish it could be otherwise for you, but I don't see how it's feasible to not publish some older content again.

This is my 37th post on this forum, but it doesn't represent my personal investment in Runequest and Glorantha. I'm 55 years old and will be 56 in a few months. I remember getting Borderlands when I was a freshman in high school, shrink wrapped in a box. I have been pissed off about RQ and heroquesting rules and lack of Dragon Pass material and "god knows what else" for the majority of my life. Maybe 75% of my existence on Earth? I have done my share of whining and fist pumping. I don't write that to impress anybody, or a sense of entitlement, or to get a RQ merit badge. I write it because I empathize. With you.

(I even got mad about the scope of heroquest rules when I misinterpreted what someone said, like a couple months ago?)

I feel time slipping away, like it's going faster. You would think that would make me more desperate for the things I want, but actually it just reminds me that I need to enjoy the things I do have and to try to stay positive for the things I'm waiting on. Maybe I'm a sucker or naive, but this time it feels different-specifically with Chaosium and RuneQuest. I think we're going to see some of this long awaited content shake loose.

I didn't set out to argue with you. I just wanted to encourage you (and in so doing encourage myself) to hang in there. I come to this site for good news and to gin up my own excitement. I'd like to run RQG with heroquesting rules in the next few years, for friends who have never played, and for my wife who played with other people before we met but never with me. So I try to be hopeful. Nevertheless, you're entitled to feel the way you feel.

Best wishes, I hope they can publish what you want soon.
 

Thank you @Wheel Shield

🤝

[Soccercalle]

My main issue isn't that content is slow to create. I definitely prefer great hero questing rules to good-enough heroquesting rules. And that can take time.

My issue is with things like only having one layout person for RQG and other things that slows down the publication of content that is already created. IF (and a strong IF, I dont know) the long-form description of say (to use an old joke) Kyger Litor is already set in stone. When I don't want to wait for 18-24 more months to buy that content because there is a need of more art, only one layout person and shipping issues to five warehouses. Different artists, 1-2 more layout persons and a pdf-first policy would probably speed up things a bit. 

And, as has been mentioned before, the JC content is great. But new customers don't really see that stuff when they look at the Chaosium web. They see that the most recently stuff published was W&E in 2021 (if we excludes some pure nostalgia products).

But I trust Chaosium and are optimistic by nature. But clone Jeff - or give full time contracts to people lika Andrew Logan Montgomery - and hire some more artists and layout person. And reconsider the pdf-first policy.

[Jason Farrell]

It baffles me that anyone accepts as a reason we don't have heroquesting rules after decades that "it's really hard and we want to get it right."  At some point, and that point has been crossed long, long ago, it's not a question of "well, don't you prefer to wait for really good rules rather than get bad rules faster?"  People only ask that question, in that way, because you sound dumb if you say "I want bad rules."  (Objection: leading the witness, your honor)

But again, it has been decades.  It's a game company.  Making games (and rules) is what they ostensibly do.  You wouldn't accept such an excuse from anyone in any other profession.  Hell, even George RR Martin hasn't taken as long to get his next novel out as Chaosium has taken on heroquest rules.  I'm honestly not sure exactly what Jason Durall's wheelhouse is, but Jeff's isn't rules.  It's Gloranthan mythology.  That's what he's good at and what he's interested in.  The fact that he's most interested in the Mythology volume of the Cults series is, to me, telling: it seems to be a book about myths and the big picture, and I don't get the impression that it contains much in the area of gameable material.  The people who came up with 99% of the rules for RQ are no longer around and it shows.

Agree with Soccercalle on the layout issue.  I get that Chaosium is relatively small and maybe can't afford more full time layout folks, but are there no other options?  Can they not hire freelancers to push out specific projects?  Jeff liked to talk about the bottleneck that Cults created (which isn't gone at all now that they've decided to spread its release over 2+ years, but I digress), but running every single project through one (or two?) layout folks is creating every bit as much of a bottleneck, to the point that we still don't have non human pregens after almost 2 years.  That is, again, utterly baffling to me, that a relatively small but useful project like that gets stuck at the end of a very long queue. 

Edited April 21, 2023 by Jason Farrell

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, Jason Farrell said:

It baffles me that anyone accepts as a reason we don't have heroquesting rules after decades that "it's really hard and we want to get it right."  At some point, and that point has been crossed long, long ago, it's not a question of "well, don't you prefer to wait for really good rules rather than get bad rules faster?"  People only ask that question, in that way, because you sound dumb if you say "I want bad rules."  (Objection: leading the witness, your honor)

That's why I published my own HeroQuesting rules.

[Jason Farrell]

45 minutes ago, soltakss said:

That's why I published my own HeroQuesting rules.

And I bought 'em. 🙂

[DrGoth]

14 hours ago, Jason Farrell said:

I'm honestly not sure exactly what Jason Durall's wheelhouse is, but Jeff's isn't rules.  It's Gloranthan mythology.  That's what he's good at and what he's interested in. 

No offense to Jeff, but I don't think the problem is the mythology. He knows. Greg knew it. The problem (as far as I can work out) is turning mythology into something playable - that is, a set of rules.  It's getting something as meaningful as mythology is/can be into a mechanical set of rules.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that one of the problem the God Learners had is that they weren't respectful of what they were meddling with.  In a game ,as soon as you write a set of rules, you (at least potentiallY0 mechanise it and leave it open to rules-lawyering.  I've sometimes wondered if a set of rules for heroquesting is possible.  I think it may be more profitable for guidelines for how to run and play them.

[Rick Meints]

On 4/18/2023 at 1:12 PM, Wheel Shield said:

Is this article not true? Because the last line thanks Chaosium for being forthcoming and it quotes (not paraphrases) you prolifically. In mid-2015 this company had 10,000 in the checking account and would have likely gone bankrupt. Did The Nerdist make this up? Did you not say these things? Again, is this not true?

The "Kickstarted itself to death" article is accurate, and I said what was quoted.

[Erol of Backford]

On 4/20/2023 at 11:42 AM, Joerg said:

"When do we get ready-to-play Heroquesting modules?"

 

On 4/20/2023 at 11:53 AM, soltakss said:

So, what would make you happy?

HQ scenerois.

On 4/20/2023 at 4:23 PM, mfbrandi said:

Mention of Tweet and OtE makes me think that The Dragon’s Eye is the book I am waiting for and that OtE inspiration the sainted Bill may have all the heroquest rules we need:

Dragon's Eye with scenarios would be really nice.

On 4/20/2023 at 6:59 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I agree with him that Chaosium is focusing on bringing in new players.  And I agree with Chaosium on that strategy.  It's slightly disappointing to us old timers, but it makes good sense.

Disappointing but maybe scenarios being published between other items would placate some old time players?

3 hours ago, DrGoth said:

I've sometimes wondered if a set of rules for heroquesting is possible.  I think it may be more profitable for guidelines for how to run and play them.

I also picked up Mr. Phipp's book.

[Agentorange]

Now I've given this some serious serious thought.

And I think the best marketing strategy would be to give me copies of all the books for free and let me say nice things about them. It certainly works for me. In fact the more I think about it the more it appeals to me as a strategy.