Where is the list of Cults that don't allow Shamans?

[Hellfire6a]

What it says on the tin. Somewhere in the Rune Magic section of RQG it says that many cults don't allow initiates to become Shamans. Is there a list? Or does it say somewhere in the cult write-ups that I just can't seem to find?

 

PS: Is it Shamans or Shamen? I always said Shamen. 

[David Scott]

53 minutes ago, Hellfire6a said:

What it says on the tin. Somewhere in the Rune Magic section of RQG it says that many cults don't allow initiates to become Shamans. Is there a list? Or does it say somewhere in the cult write-ups that I just can't seem to find?

If it doesn't specifically say they can't be shaman, then they can. Some cults have specific shaman, but if they don't, a shaman can just be a normal initiate. Some cults while they allow shaman to be initiates, specifically forbid them to become priests (but doesn't forbid them to be god-talkers). It's simpler than you think.

For example Humakt doesn't forbid shamans, 

53 minutes ago, Hellfire6a said:

PS: Is it Shamans or Shamen? I always said Shamen. 

RQG uses shaman and shamans. Sha-man not shame-n. 

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Hellfire6a said:

PS: Is it Shamans or Shamen? I always said Shamen. 

Shamans. The word is not a compound. See etymology here: shaman - Wiktionary 

[PhilHibbs]

Whilst many cults do allow shamans, and even have shamans as priests, I think there is a caveat.

If a cult has shaman-priests, I would say that a shaman who joins that cult cannot progress to being a priest.

The rules don't specifically say this, but I think it makes sense. Becoming a shaman within the cult's tradition is to become a priest. If you've already become a shaman under a different tradition, then you can't do it again. You already awoke your fetch, gained whatever abilities that tradition gave you, and forged relationships with powerful spirits.

Can you become a priest of a cult that doesn't have shamanic priests? Personally I don't think so, but I'm aware that other opinions are available.

[hipsterinspace]

7 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Can you become a priest of a cult that doesn't have shamanic priests? Personally I don't think so, but I'm aware that other opinions are available.

You can definitely be an Earth Witch and Ernalda Priestess, I’d imagine you can be a Kolating and a Storm Voice as well. Both of those would effectively be Horned Man shamans integrated within the cult’s hierarchy.

[Akhôrahil]

Relatedly, which forbid sorcerers? This should presumable be a lot more, as shamans are merely weirdos, while sorcerers are soulless atheists.

[metcalph]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Relatedly, which forbid sorcerers? This should presumable be a lot more, as shamans are merely weirdos, while sorcerers are soulless atheists.

That kinda rules out associated membership in Lhankor Mhy.  I think RQG has taken a more tolerant attitude towards the learning of sorcery than RQ3 or HQ and instead used the inherent difficulty of sorcery to inhibit widespread knowledge of it.  

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Relatedly, which forbid sorcerers?

It's the same. If it's in the cult write up, then it's specifically forbidden.

 

[Shiningbrow]

17 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

If a cult has shaman-priests, I would say that a shaman who joins that cult cannot progress to being a priest.

The rules don't specifically say this, but I think it makes sense. Becoming a shaman within the cult's tradition is to become a priest. If you've already become a shaman under a different tradition, then you can't do it again. You already awoke your fetch, gained whatever abilities that tradition gave you, and forged relationships with powerful spirits.

I'm inclined to disagree with some of this.

Firstly, if you can be a shaman-priest, then I don't see why a shaman can't become a priest later.

And to address your other reasoning (which is caveated), any shaman who is going to join a cult and advance to that level is going to be part of a tradition that closely aligns with the new cult - e.g., Kotaling shamans joining Orlanth.

Now, if one comes from quite a different tradition, then sure, they shouldn't be going further up the ranks past basic initiate. But if they aren't, then I don't see the issue. After all, I can definitely see a shaman venturing out to meet up with Orlanth himself in the winds (or at least his kids), and that suggests Wind Voice to me.

And, it's been said that it's perfectly fine for an initiate to join spirit societies.

[Scotty]

22 hours ago, Hellfire6a said:

Somewhere in the Rune Magic section of RQG it says that many cults don't allow initiates to become Shamans. Is there a list?

I've updated my reference list and published it here as RQG Cults allowing Sorcerers or Shaman.

22 hours ago, Hellfire6a said:

Or does it say somewhere in the cult write-ups that I just can't seem to find?

Yes, in some of them. Others will be in the upcoming Cults of RuneQuest books.

[Steve]

On 6/24/2023 at 6:50 PM, David Scott said:

Sha-man not shame-n. 

You say po-tay-toe, I say po-tah-toe ...

[Squaredeal Sten]

1 hour ago, Steve said:

You say po-tay-toe, I say po-tah-toe ...

I think that the point is "shaman" has nothing to do with the English word "man", so its plural is not "men" and there are no sha-women, just female shamans.

[Shiningbrow]

18 hours ago, Scotty said:

I've updated my reference list and published it here as RQG Cults allowing Sorcerers or Shaman.

Thanks Scotty, this is great!!!

I'm lost though - what's the actual difference with

Sorcerer Initiates

• Not forbidden: there is no sorcery teaching within the cult and it must be sought elsewhere.
• Yes, but No Cult Sorcerers: there is no sorcery teaching within the cult and it must be sought elsewhere

 

They say the same thing! (other than the IO bit after the second)

[Scotty]

13 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'm lost though - what's the actual difference with

Sorcerer Initiates

• Not forbidden: there is no sorcery teaching within the cult and it must be sought elsewhere.
• Yes, but No Cult Sorcerers: there is no sorcery teaching within the cult and it must be sought elsewhere

 

They say the same thing! (other than the IO bit after the second)

This is to do with the actual wording in the publications. Not forbidden, means there is nothing in the the text not forbidding sorcerers. Yes means that the text actually states there is sorcery in the cult (such as spell lists), but that there are not cult sorcerers.

[French Desperate WindChild]

6 hours ago, Scotty said:

but that there are not cult sorcerers.

to be sure : does that mean there is no "sorcerer job position" in the cult ? but you may find sorcerers in the cult (seen as initiate, god talker or priest)

 

On 6/24/2023 at 11:49 PM, PhilHibbs said:

Becoming a shaman within the cult's tradition is to become a priest

I agree. For example, you are shaman of Yelm. You did the pact with him. You are seen by the community as a reference in the cult. You are seen by the god as a great worshipper (aka you get the powers of the priest)

On 6/24/2023 at 11:49 PM, PhilHibbs said:

If you've already become a shaman under a different tradition, then you can't do it again. You already awoke your fetch, gained whatever abilities that tradition gave you, and forged relationships with powerful spirits.

Can you become a priest of a cult that doesn't have shamanic priests? Personally I don't think so, but I'm aware that other opinions are available

I disagree 🙂

For me your fetch is your fetch, it is not influenced by any entity you may worship. So let's say you are an independant (or some exotic spirit cult) shaman.  People discover your lineage and you are allowed to join Yelm cult. You are initiate of Yelm and independant shaman. Now Why will you not seek to join Yelm as a great entity to make a pact with him ? If you succeed, you are now a shaman priest of yelm. If you fail (or if you don't try) you are just an initiate  of Yelm and a shaman

[g33k]

12 hours ago, Scotty said:

This is to do with the actual wording in the publications. Not forbidden, means there is nothing in the the text not forbidding sorcerers. Yes means that the text actually states there is sorcery in the cult (such as spell lists), but that there are not cult sorcerers.

I do not feel less-confused by this!

(I don't feel more-confused, either... differently-confused?)

 

There is a list of Cult spells (i.e. texts maintained by the Cult, available from the Cult to appropriate Cult-members; or perhaps texts teaching Runes, Techniquies, etc); but there are not Cult sorcerers who know these spells?!?  uhhh...

Is it a matter of there being no formal titles and/or roles within the Cult, honors given, etc? 

(If so, kinda still don't see a diff between "not forbidden" & "Yes but no Cult Sorcerors")

Is it simply that the "Yes, but..." Cult acts as a resource for those Initiates who happen to be Sorcerors -- they have a few texts &c available safely & relatively-inexpensively to the Initiates (who otherwise would likely have to go on dangerous & time-consuming Adventures, and/or pay huge fees, to get access to comparable texts whereas the "not forbidden" Cults just don't keep that stuff around, at all?

Or is it something else entirely?

Thanks for any extra clarity...

[Richard S.]

deleted
 

Misread something due to tiredness, carry on

Edited June 27, 2023 by Richard S.

[Jens]

Right now there are 3 cults that say Yes to Sorcerer Initiates- Chalana Arroy, Lhankor Mhy, and Seven Mothers (via Irippi Onto).

• Lhankor Mhy is the only one that has Sorcery Spells in the Initiate Membership benefits section, and therefore must have Cult Sorcerers that teach those spells.
• Chalana Arroy forbids Initiates the use of Tap and Offensive Spells. so conversely allows all other sorcery spells. However, the cult does not teach any sorcery spells; no sorcery spell teaching, no Cult Sorcerers.
• Seven Mothers does not mention sorcery anywhere in the core rulebook; I assume the upcoming Lunar Cults of RuneQuest book details Irippi Ontor, who likely teaches the same sorcery spells as Lhankor Mhy, and probably makes those available to Seven Mothers Initiates. So Seven Mothers as a cult would allow sorcery but not have Cult Sorcerers; the separate cult of Irippi Ontor would have both.

No other cult mentions sorcery in a neutral or positive way; those fall in the Not Forbidden camp.

Clearer @g33k?

[Rodney Dangerduck]

@Scotty  thanks for the chart.  As pointed out by many, the terms are very confusing.  There seems no real difference between not forbidden and "yes but".  Please consider simplifying or clarifying.

Also the phrasing that shamen can join as initiates begs the question of whether initiates can become shamen, which is what one of our PCs did.  (We didn't have your chart then)

[Scotty]

Please note that the table was just my notes, I'll streamline it asap.

3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Also the phrasing that shamen can join as initiates begs the question of whether initiates can become shamen, which is what one of our PCs did.  (We didn't have your chart then)

Initiates can become shaman if done independently from the cult if the cult doesn't have cult shaman.

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Please note that the table was just my notes, I'll streamline it asap.

No issue David, thanks for your effort. I think our reactions show what needs to be clarified 🙂

 

[Shiningbrow]

10 hours ago, Jens said:

Chalana Arroy forbids Initiates the use of Tap and Offensive Spells. so conversely allows all other sorcery spells. However, the cult does not teach any sorcery spells; no sorcery spell teaching, no Cult Sorcerers

I would doubt that last bit is true, at least as a cult-wide (temple-wide) statement.

I think that it would be necessary for there to be some teaching of sorcery at some temples and by some cultists - there's too many good possibilities in sorcery for there not to be (think spells like Protective Circle* to create a large, relatively safe healing environment), as well as the possibility of large AoE heal spell (i.e., Accelerate Healing cast on every temple/hospital). And given the nature of the cult, I could see CA temples trying to teach as many initiates as possible to do this (or at least, have a strong divide between the spirit magicians and the sorcerers).

 

(*I'm not seeing a reason why a Heal 6 - or even Heal Body - cast on the circle itself wouldn't have full effect on everybody inside... no???)

[JRE]

I do not allow the mixing of magics. So although I agree that there are temples of Chalana Arroy in Safelster that teach healing sorceries, they do not add heal to a Protective circle, because the magics just cannot interact. It is possible such a healer has some spirit magic as "first aid" magic without using rune magic, while reserving the sorcery for wide area or long range effects or long duration effects, which is what sorcery is good for. And they still use Spirit magic for what it is good for, fast, relatively efficient limited effects. They complement each other, but they are incompatible, as the principles are totally different. Magic from soulpower, magic loaned from an external source, and magic from the world, shaped by my own skill and knowledge.