Glorantha - where the streets are so clean you can eat your dinner off them

[Tiný]

I was looking at the art of glorantha and its wonderful BUT all the street or city scenes are awfully clean ...who cleans all the mule and donkey and sheep and cow (driven to market) crap off the streets ? who do the cleaner worship ? do they process the dung as fire chips ? or as fertiliser? is urine collected by the tanners of leather guild ? also a point not often mentioned but which gives real flavour to the roleplaying ..in a city like Boldhome ..are there private priveys or long drops and do people just do it in the street ? Its an important point of the local culture  whcih make the world more intense . Or are there city piggies that run around and, cough , get rid of the poo themselves?  The city art is amazing but its all a bit too clean for my liking..unless there is a underclass or caste  that licks the streets clean every night .Nothing like treading in a bison pat in sandels 😉  

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20130607-the-accidental-role-of-cow-dung

 

[AndreJarosch]

Trollkin perhaps?

[jajagappa]

25 minutes ago, Tiný said:

BUT all the street or city scenes are awfully clean ...who cleans all the mule and donkey and sheep and cow (driven to market) crap off the streets ? who do the cleaner worship ? do they process the dung as fire chips ? or as fertiliser? is urine collected by the tanners of leather guild ?

In Nochet, there are gangs of trollkin who are sent out on a nightly basis to gather, collect, and remove nightsoil which is brought to various Esrola shrines for blessing and then distribution to the surrounding farms. Some beggars undoubtedly gather dung for fire chips. Urine is collected for use by the tanners though I did not detail that practice. 

There's a short reference on the Nightsoil Trade in my Nochet: Queen of Cities (p.66) in that regard:

The Nightsoil Trade. Overlooked by most in considering the trade of Nochet, yet the market for nightsoil is considerable. The Argan Argar Temple and Clan Utrogka command the hordes of trollkin sent out nightly to gather and collect it and bring it to the Foul Beach. Trade for the nightsoil is conducted along the east side of the South Market. Farmers arrive throughout the day to load the soil into their wagons and carry it out of the city to the lands around. It brings the trolls and the Temple of Black Esrola considerable wealth.

 

[Tiný]

perfect now we have the answer 😉

[soltakss]

One of the GMs in our RQ 2Campaign gave out SIZ 1 Smurfs as magic items. They swept up behind their owners, making them leave no tracks, but grumbled as they worked, so gave a -20% penalty to Move Quietly. An army of grumbling Smurfs could keep a city clean.

[Akhôrahil]

Huge Waste Elementals sweep the streets at night, gobbling everything up to add to their stinking, decaying bodies. At day, they're herded out to the fields to deposit it.

It's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it.

[Erol of Backford]

On 9/11/2024 at 3:55 PM, jajagappa said:

In Nochet, there are gangs of trollkin who are sent out on a nightly basis to gather, collect, and remove nightsoil which is brought to various Esrola shrines for blessing and then distribution to the surrounding farms.

In Pavis, I was reading somewhere (looked through many many files) that night soil was collected by dwarves and gargoyles or a small Jolanti, there was even an illustration.

[John Biles]

The real reason the Lunars embrace Chaos is that Gorp is great at street-cleaning.

 

[Akhôrahil]

6 hours ago, John Biles said:

The real reason the Lunars embrace Chaos is that Gorp is great at street-cleaning.

While this is a fun idea, night soil is too valuable a commodity.

I like sewers and Broo sewer workers, and I believe this might even be canonical?

[Brian Duguid]

This doesn't help with street cleaning, but note there is an enchanted item in RQ: Weapons and Equipment which is specifically stated as useful for destroying waste and nightsoil, the Devouring Sack.

[Nick Brooke]

16 hours ago, John Biles said:

The real reason the Lunars embrace Chaos is that Gorp is great at street-cleaning.

Lies, all lies. We enslave barbarians from beyond the Provinces and make them work to keep our streets tidy. (Or else.) That’s much more socially acceptable, I understand.

[g33k]

33 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Lies, all lies. We enslave barbarians from beyond the Provinces and make them work to keep our streets tidy. (Or else.) That’s much more socially acceptable, I understand.

And if the barbarians fall behind, the gorps are there to pick up whatever they missed, including the barbarians themselves.

All hail the comprehensive planning of the Red Moon!

[svensson]

Who cleans the streets?

In Pavis, trollkin.

Everywhere else, stickpickers and the urban poor.

IMG, the Orlanthi temples have taken about a half a page from the Teelo Norri book. They've set up a mission where the poor can get two meals and a pallet for the night, but in exchange the poor have to do useful work for several hours [about half a day]. This might be cleaning the streets, it might be washing the blankets at the hospice, or any one of the ten thousand jobs that a city might need done over the course of a day.

[Rob Darvall]

17 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

...

I like sewers and Broo sewer workers, and I believe this might even be canonical?

Crocodile Broo?

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, svensson said:

Who cleans the streets?

In Pavis, trollkin.

Everywhere else, stickpickers and the urban poor.

IMG, the Orlanthi temples have taken about a half a page from the Teelo Norri book. They've set up a mission where the poor can get two meals and a pallet for the night, but in exchange the poor have to do useful work for several hours [about half a day]. This might be cleaning the streets, it might be washing the blankets at the hospice, or any one of the ten thousand jobs that a city might need done over the course of a day.

In ancient Raibanth, a Yelmie by the name of Avivath. Who happened to discover the secret of the Sunspear and founded the Khordavu dynasty.

[MOB]

On 9/12/2024 at 6:23 AM, Tiný said:

I was looking at the art of glorantha and its wonderful BUT all the street or city scenes are awfully clean ...who cleans all the mule and donkey and sheep and cow (driven to market) crap off the streets ?

In Sun Domer society this role traditionally falls to those who receive the Yelmalio geas "Never seek shelter from Storm". Given how dry the Prax region is, bummer if you also get "Never bathe".

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, MOB said:

In Sun Domer society this role traditionally falls to those who receive the Yelmalio geas "Never seek shelter from Storm". Given how dry the Prax region is, bummer if you also get "Never bathe".

Good thing you can still take showers.

[PaulJW]

On 9/11/2024 at 9:23 PM, Tiný said:

I was looking at the art of glorantha and its wonderful BUT all the street or city scenes are awfully clean ...who cleans all the mule and donkey and sheep and cow (driven to market) crap off the streets ?

Actually, in medieval London, the main streets were kept reasonably clean.  Posh people tended to live in houses on the more important streets and they paid servants to keep their street clean.

The filthy streets (and they would have been very filthy) would have been the side streets in the poorer neighbourhoods.  So it is not so unrealistic for an ancient city to have kept its main streets reasonably clean.

 

[Joerg]

2 minutes ago, PaulJW said:

Actually, in medieval London, the main streets were kept reasonably clean.  Posh people tended to live in houses on the more important streets and they paid servants to keep their street clean.

A major contributor to filth on city streets would have been draft animals. According to a news article, a horse would produce 2 liters of piss and 15 kg of dung a day. Before the advent of cars, London produced more than 500 metric tons of horseshit a day. Great fertilizer if and when you get it onto your fields.

No idea how productive Praxian herd beasts would be, and how oxen compare.

Dogs and pigs running free in the streets might actually have reduced the amount of dung, giving it a second pass through intestines.

[Kloster]

52 minutes ago, Joerg said:

A major contributor to filth on city streets would have been draft animals. According to a news article, a horse would produce 2 liters of piss and 15 kg of dung a day. Before the advent of cars, London produced more than 500 metric tons of horseshit a day. Great fertilizer if and when you get it onto your fields.

According to Paris Horse Marketplace, in 1900 AD, Paris (that was and still is far smaller than London) counted over 80 000 Horses. According to your figures, 1200 tons of dung per day were produced. A great part of it was used in the old quarries to grow mushrooms.

[RHW]

On 9/11/2024 at 1:55 PM, jajagappa said:

In Nochet, there are gangs of trollkin who are sent out on a nightly basis to gather, collect, and remove nightsoil which is brought to various Esrola shrines for blessing and then distribution to the surrounding farms. Some beggars undoubtedly gather dung for fire chips. Urine is collected for use by the tanners though I did not detail that practice. 

Gather it? Don't they just eat it? Or at least eat a significant percentage?

[jajagappa]

11 hours ago, RHW said:

Gather it? Don't they just eat it? Or at least eat a significant percentage?

I doubt the small % of trollkin will be able to consume any significant portion of what is produced by 100k+ individuals plus the assorted animals in the city. Total troll population in Nochet (including trollkin) is only 3k.

[Squaredeal Sten]

Dwarfs (Mostali) buy it up.  You will see dung carts leave daily for Dwarf strongholds.  They buy many strange things.  No one pays attention.

[spoiler] They have a process to. extract saltpeter.  More is needed for the Cannon Cult.  [end spoiler]

 

[Tiný]

I  feel a scenario hook coming on, dwarves , carts full of dung which they (pc'S) have to hide in for days , entrance to dwarven strong holds, a sneaky intel knowledge mission for Lhankor My , the after effects of the mission means loss of reputation/cha due  to pong ,almost heroquest in size and yet they cant tell what they did due to inter dwarf/human relationships (gasp), this mission scroll will self disrupt in 30 seconds ? wow I like the way you think sten.. very Jame bond .."poo-raker""live and let poo" "Poop is forever" "PooPfinger " okay thats enough sad scenario titles..eww

PS. transport in glorantha I feel a new thread coming on ....

carts ? 2 wheel , 4 wheel ? , wagons (wicked wild prax west?) ? how common in glorantha? 1 wheel chinese wheelbarrow ? just curious , solid wheels  I assume?

[John Biles]

21 minutes ago, Tiný said:

carts ? 2 wheel , 4 wheel ? , wagons (wicked wild prax west?) ? how common in glorantha? 1 wheel chinese wheelbarrow ? just curious , solid wheels  I assume?

 

The rule book for the new edition has two wheeled carts drawn by one beast of burden and four wheeled wagons pulled by two beasts of burden.

Dwarves probably have metal four wheeled carts pulled by giant cave lizards or by jolanti shaped like beasts of burden.