Derik and the Pol Joni

[Joerg]

Taking this away from the Barbarian Town thread.

1 minute ago, David Scott said:

@Joerg, these are just my nascent ideas. At the moment I've just reached a new part of the Praxian history section, where Sheng's Empire, Praxians are fighting against him, Praxians are fighting with him and the Pol Joni arrive in Prax. So I'm currently looking at the whole overview. Some of the stuff doesn't make sense at the moment, but your comments are certainly helpful.

I found I had to reconsider the Pol Joni story from the depiction of the incident in King of Dragon Pass (which has Derik as a member of your clan, and the loss of his parents as a result of Jaldon's Great Raid - which, reading the Tarsh section of CHDP, cannot have been the case, since Jaldon is described as a mercenary who betrayed his Tarshite patron when Derik already was part of Yanasdros entourage, and started his great raid after having visited Tarsh.

It isn't quite clear whether this happened before or after Yanasdros took over from his father. It is clear, however, that Derik was a personal retainer of Yanasdros before Yanasdros became king, since he participated in the raid of the sacred Grazer herd which led to Ovartien's abdication in 1395. (That would mean that Derik was around 120 at the battle of Denzis Water. Given a comparable age of Hofstaring when he was drawn to Hell, not impossible.)

Derik's victory over Jaldon seems to have altered his ambition, away from personal revenge towards a lasting solution for the Praxian border region. This would make sense if Jaldon had been the leader of the raid in which Derik's parents were killed.

 

It is quite possible that the final duel between Derik and Jaldon was a high stakes, other side duel where Derik robbed Jaldon of something significant - possibly his khan heritage? It took the intervention of Argrath White Bull to reawaken Jaldon, and when he did, the personal followers of Jaldon were the very clans of the Pol Joni, and their magicians using the same techniques as the Sartar Magical Union.

Jaldon had a lot of precedence to give to Derik. Jaldon proved that you didn't have to ride a recognized Praxian beast in order to be a khan of khans. He had the magic to unite riders from the most diverse Beast Rider background to follow his military leadership, which may be how Derik managed to attract all those Praxian exiles despite the nasty demand that they stop riding their ancestral herd beasts, and ride horses instead.

And I do wonder whether Derik really managed to make all of them give up their original mounts in the first generation of the Pol Joni, even more so in light of the fact that the Sartarites use Praxian mounts in sufficiently high numbers that the sample mounted warrior in HQG is riding a sable. Are Praxian beasts permittable as secondary mounts for the Pol Joni? You wouldn't ride them when attending a tribal moot, but you might very well shift back to that trusty old bison when visiting an oasis altar incognito. Keeping a herd of raided beasts is very Praxian.

 

I wonder about Derik's epithet Furman. I sort of doubt that he flayed fallen Praxian enemies, or that their however hairy skin might have been regarded as fur. The only furred Praxians are the Baboons, and they appear to coexist with the Pol Joni in western Prax with only the usual problems between a possession-less hunter gatherer community and a culture valuing possession.

Derik started out hating the Praxians, and especially sable riders, with a hot and destructive passion. Did he wear a ball of tails so big that he could wear it as a cape?

 

The first historical map in the Guide showing Pol Joni shows them as part of the Quivini marches outside of Yanasdros' kingdom of Tarsh proper, around 1440, unless this is meant to indicate that Derik was still considered a Tarshite vassal whose job it was to protect the Tarshite tribes in the Far Point and the Bush Range from Praxian and Quivini raids. Derik clearly never succumbed to the Seleric Empire. The presence of Seleric lieutenants might have been a factor in creating enough exiles to join the Pol Joni, even though that meant to defect one horse-tainted side for another, with even greater personal exposure to the stink of horses (rather than the sweet perfume of the tribal herd beasts). Or might it have been Seleric followers who fell in disgrace during prolonged absence of Seleric authority figures who were cast out of the tribes, and who found refuge with Derik?

 

1 minute ago, David Scott said:

Yes they are a Praxian tribe. Cults of Prax establishes this and lists their Waha and Eiritha cult makeup in appendix C. 

But how much are they part of the covenant? Worship of Eiritha in her role as land goddess and nurturer of the (cattle) herds makes sense even without being part of the covenant, and if the price for that is the ritual of butchery and the Peaceful Cut, then it makes sense to follow that practice, even if you were born as a Grazer or as a Heortling. I imagine the Waha cult to have come from the considerable influx of exiles rather than from Derik's personal effort to establish himself as a khan. Ignoring the "not born here, from a lineage of khans" problem, going into the Devils March to slay a chaotic horror wouldn't have been a deed of note for a warrior as accomplished as Derik.

Wrestling this from Jaldon might have been Derik's window of opportunity. Given the fact that Jaldon is named a mystic, I have a lingering suspicion that Jaldon might have performed something resembling utuma in that combat, taking possession of Derik.

 

1 minute ago, David Scott said:

The Guide says

Quote

Eventually the Pol-Joni tribe included pygmy riders from the Impala People, dusky alticamulus riders, bearded bison outlaws, and many others from footbound clans as well. All Pol-Joni rode horses. Their cattle bred profusely, and the horses bred true.

The Pure Horse folk didn't have any cattle herds (making their herds useless to the Praxians), but neither had they any problem with their horses not breeding true. Joraz Kyrem's big feat of creating the War Zebra didn't spread beyond the Pavis tribe of horse folk, leaving the majority of Pure Horse Folk still riding their hyaloring beasts.

The Opili-breed cattle were very acceptable to Eiritha, and seem to have responded well to the Peaceful Cut and butchery rites. We don't know when and how the former horse warlords of Dara Happa acquired their bovine stock after Argentium Thri'ile. There may very well have been similar heroics for magical cattle as practiced among the Red Cow clan of the Cinsina (and possibly the Black Spear clan of the Colymar) among the Pentans after Hyaloring, Hirenmador and Veshtargos fusioned into a single ethnic whole. If the Lenshi were expelled to Pent, too, they might have brought a Tawari or Bisosae bull breed with them.

1 minute ago, David Scott said:

Quote

Within a few generations, the new tribe had grown strong enough to stand as equal to the peoples in the limited area of Prax. They called themselves the Pol-Joni, but the Praxians called them the “bastard tribe” and the “illegal tribe” because they were not pure, or worshipers of the Prax and Paps deities.

not pure, or worshipers of the Prax and Paps deities.

We do know that they include Waha and Eiritha worshippers, and the practice of ancestor worship is common for all humans in Genertela. The Praxians don't mind great numbers of worshippers of non-Praxian deities, like Yelmalio, among themselves. So what is it that they criticize about the Pol Joni religious practices? That Waha isn't their path to chieftain- and khan-hood?

1 minute ago, David Scott said:

Quote

Nonetheless, trade passed between them, and occasional Pol-Joni went to the Paps to worship. Their warriors were accepted into Praxian secret societies, and they became, in every way, one of the many bickering tribes of the plains.

Trade passed between them. Do the Praxian clans have trade officers like the Quivini, or do they rely on Issaries cultists from Pavis, the Quivini or Kethaela, similar to Biturian?

The bickering tribes of the plains include other foreigners like the Men-and-a-half, the Basmoli, and to some extent the Sun Domers of Mo Baustra, too. They included the Pure Horse Folk for more than 630 years (the battle of Denzis Water in 620 was .

1 minute ago, David Scott said:

I'm looking at the route to acceptance, clearly it was gradual. But I think Derik discovered a secret to help them. He clearly discovered Jaldon's secret and uses that to ally him to the Pol-joni, but I think he has another link. One of the other areas that I'm looking at is that first age Prax was much more thelyan than it is now, and there's likely an Orlanth link to it.

Interesting. The Heortling neighbors of the Praxians have always been the Orgovaltes, the other (presumably Hyaloring) rider tribe of the Vingkotlings and later the Heortlings. Before the ancient Praxian culture was superseded by Waha's Beast Rider culture, that horse relationship didn't hurt anyone. Hyalor worshipped Yamsur, one of the deities of Genert's Garden. The sons of Storm Bull may have grunted derisively, but whatever enmity there may have been, it wasn't enough to break the peace of Genert or Tada.

Both Waha and King Heort were active in the earliest Gray Age. I have no idea whether Waha shares the I Fought We Won myth with Heort and Ezkankekko (and a few other leaders, possibly including Aram ya Udram and a green elf from around Tallseed Forest). His Beast Riders weren't part of the Unity Council, anyway, and while they were among the first contacts of the Lightbringers after the Dawn, I would assume that contact may have been made already before the Dawn, in the Gray/Silver Age.

Cults of Prax still names Humakt as an Invader Cult and gives a single digit date for its arrival. Little Brother may have been part of the Bison tribe cults before the Dawn, but there would have been only little response before Orlanth and the other deities re-emerged at the Dawn.

When you say more Theyalan, do you mean that the beast riders used Hantrafali sacrifice rather than shamanic spirit cults for the Lightbringer Cults of Prax?

[JonL]

There may be an echo of Waha's net in Derik's use the Black Net.

[David Scott]

35 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I found I had to

Thanks @joerg, this is a huge amount of info to digest, it may take some time.

 

[David Scott]

37 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Little Brother may have been part of the Bison tribe cults before the Dawn, but there would have been only little response before Orlanth and the other deities re-emerged at the Dawn. When you say more Theyalan, do you mean that the beast riders used Hantrafali sacrifice rather than shamanic spirit cults for the Lightbringer Cults of Prax?

The Lightbringers only became part of the Praxian pantheon after the missionaries arrived. Waha had foretold of this and the first action was the transfer of the Air spirits that Waha had befriended to Orlanth for safekeeping (there is no Air related spirit society amongst the Praxians - it's Orlanth). A high proportion of Praxians followed Lightbringer gods at this time as a result of this contact and this remained so until they started repopulating the Wastes and went beyond the Pairing Stones / Hero Fin influence line (As a point of reference, I'm not using Little Brother, he's Orlanth Adventurous to the Praxians).

[Tindalos]

On 13/04/2017 at 3:46 PM, David Scott said:

 (As a point of reference, I'm not using Little Brother, he's Orlanth Adventurous to the Praxians).

Sorry to bring this back, but I was rereading Pavis: Gateway to Adventure, and there was mention of Rain Man the little brother, a spirit associated with the Air Rune (page 53), there's also a mention of Rainman in the guide, at the Bison Khan and Rainman Grasslands. Is Rain Man a Praxian title for Orlanth, a subcult, or one of his associated entities?

Edited May 1, 2017 by Tindalos

[Noita]

http://www.glorantha.com/forums/topic/rainman/

Will stick this here for reference.

[David Scott]

@Iskallor's post above is generally correct Rainman in the context of the Rainman Grasslands is a title. 

On 01/05/2017 at 10:03 PM, Tindalos said:

Is Rain Man a Praxian title for Orlanth, a subcult, or one of his associated entities?

Rain Man is a bit more complex. While it appears to refer to Orlanth, it's actually Heler with the Storm Rune. As Orlanth only exists amongst the Praxians in his movement aspect. The Pol-Joni have all three aspects as Waha's Mastery is mostly displaced by Orlanth amongst them and the magical storm mountain influence covers them so his storm aspect exists as well. In the Wastes there is little rain, but when it occurs, it's Heler who brings them. There's clearly a link between Heler and the seasonal serpents. The dynamic is much more Daga versus Heler. Have a look at the side bar on page 172 of Pavis GtA. Little Brother is the Praxian aspect of Heler, but confusingly is a spirit attached to the Praxian Orlanth  cult (society).

Edited May 3, 2017 by David Scott

[KeithN]

I like the idea that they might be the "bastard" tribe because their khan is not a legitimate heir of Waha!. and that somehow Derik took the role of Khan from Jaldon (but not the legitimacy). In my Glorantha I imagined that Waha being banned from raiding Dragon Pass was a side effect of Varajia Nopor hamstringing him, which I imagined was sidestepped by the name change to Jaldon (Jaldon being an incarnation of Waha! in my Glorantha, but sufficiently different to sidestep magical bans).

 

 

[Pentallion]

Derek and the Pol Joni sound like the name of a band.

[Noita]

On 6/3/2017 at 10:10 PM, Pentallion said:

Derek and the Pol Joni sound like the name of a band.

Derik was of course a hero of Donandar.

[Darius West]

On 6/4/2017 at 5:10 AM, Pentallion said:

Derek and the Pol Joni sound like the name of a band.

All I can ever see when I see the name Pol Joni is how rude it is in Nadsat, the slang from A Clockwork Orange.  Pol is Russian slang for sex and Joni is Yoni which is slang for vagina. Therefore yes, very much a band name, and probably a punk one at that.

[boztakang]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

All I can ever see when I see the name Pol Joni is how rude it is in Nadsat, the slang from A Clockwork Orange.  Pol is Russian slang for sex and Joni is Yoni which is slang for vagina. Therefore yes, very much a band name, and probably a punk one at that.

I hear they are touring with Yinkin Riot

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, boztakang said:

I hear they are touring with Yinkin Riot

I would have thought Derik and the Pol Joni would open for the Broo Fighters.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Joerg

[Evilroddy]

The title of this thread always makes me think of a 1960's garage band! "Mrs. Bronze you've got a lovely Moonson!". "I'm Phaoroh and the eighth I am". The Gagarthi classic, "Wild Thing" and who can forget, "Troll, you've really got me Uzzy!". Not available in stores.

Cheers and good gaming.

Evilroddy.

[Mankcam]

I'm hearing 'Bennie and The Jets':

 

"He's got Lamellar Boots,

and a Chainmail Suit,

He's as bad as you've ever seen - 

D-D-D-Derek and The Pol-Joni!

Derek!

Derek!

Derek!

Derek, and The Pol-Joni!"

 

(keep repeating and fade out)

 

 

Now you hear it, it can't be unheard  

Edited June 18, 2017 by Mankcam

[Evilroddy]

And let's not forget that Praxian Bison Tribe hit - "Wooley Bully" by Sam the Shaman.

Or Van Morokanth's "Brown Hide Girl" and "Moontrance".

Nor should we discount the Kerofini classic, "Ain't No Mountain High Enough", by Marvan Gor.

"Devil With a Blue Streak Gone" by Witch Ryder.

"I Love Rock and Bolgs" by Jaganatha Jett.

"La Binga" [Bang] by Twitchy Talons.

"Lightson of a Creature Man" by Dusty Seafield.

"Mama's Got a Brand New Hag" by Jomes Brown, the hardest work'in Uz in Rock and Roll.

"Red Magic Woman" by Sant-Xentha.

and finally the memorable "Turn Beat-Pot Around" by the Mostali Sound Machine.

Argh, I've got to stop this!

Cheers and good gaming.

Evilroddy.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Evilroddy

[Mankcam]

lol pure gold evil roddy 

[Pentallion]

Did I just totally derail this whole thread?  Oops

[g33k]

5 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Did I just totally derail this whole thread?  Oops

Indeed.  Everyone seems to be dancing to your tune.

[Pentallion]

7 hours ago, g33k said:

Indeed.  Everyone seems to be dancing to your tune.

It's the pipes.  the pol joni got them from Snakepipe.  And cow bells.  Derek plays cow bells because every song needs more cow bells.

[Jokum]

Are there anywhere descriptions of Derik Poljoni's hero cult? I suppose he would teach at least horseriding. Spells could be battle related(against praxians?) and possibly something which would make co-operation possible between hostile tribe members? Do Poljonis worship him or was it mostly by Dundealos?

Interesting heroquest or even several of them could be forged out of his story.

Sorry for bringing this old topic up.

[David Scott]

It's in The Book of Heortling Mythology, Appendix C, Orlanthi Heroes and Hero Cults, Derik Furman Jaldonkiller, page 176. He's an Orlanth Hero / Founder, so I would suggest more of a culture hero.

Hero cults usually only teach 1 or 2 things at most. Orlanth cultists learn Ride from the associate cult of Storm Bull.

I suspect that the tribal chief can heroform him as the (pure horse founder). I'd give him Call Founder (RBM page 21) and maybe change the rune to sky.

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, David Scott said:

It's in The Book of Heortling Mythology, Appendix C, Orlanthi Heroes and Hero Cults, Derik Furman Jaldonkiller, page 176. He's an Orlanth Hero / Founder, so I would suggest more of a culture hero.

Hero cults usually only teach 1 or 2 things at most. Orlanth cultists learn Ride from the associate cult of Storm Bull.

I suspect that the tribal chief can heroform him as the (pure horse founder). I'd give him Call Founder (RBM page 21) and maybe change the rune to sky.

I don't think the tribal chief hero forms him. His hero cult probably includes Command Horse, but through the Air Rune or Movement Rune.

[Darius West]

On 6/4/2017 at 5:10 AM, Pentallion said:

Derek and the Pol Joni sound like the name of a band.

"Pol Joni" comes from Nadsat, the language of "A Clockwork Orange".

[Sir_Godspeed]

Jon Pol Joni.