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Help me sell RQG to my players


Marty Jopson

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1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

For me, "bronze age" evokes tribal and shamanistic societies as opposed to feudal ones, it evokes distinct aesthetics in art and architecture, wooden palisades and cruder stone walls in some places, primal forces of nature and weird local cults as opposed to territorial and well organized monotheist religions, etc. It's a whole different flavour of "fantasy" and at the point where you're still pitching the game to people, I think it's important to communicate how the world will be like in as few words as possible.

Most of the Iron Age had all that, though.

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1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

I don't know if there was ever a push to differentiate Orlanthi from Vikings and Lunars from Romans and all that, but I think it's useful to draw parallels to establish baselines. For me, "bronze age" evokes tribal and shamanistic societies as opposed to feudal ones, it evokes distinct aesthetics in art and architecture, wooden palisades and cruder stone walls in some places, primal forces of nature and weird local cults as opposed to territorial and well organized monotheist religions, etc. It's a whole different flavour of "fantasy" and at the point where you're still pitching the game to people, I think it's important to communicate how the world will be like in as few words as possible.

For me, Glorantha is about the Religions, the people and the History/Monomyth.

I have never really bought in to the "Orlanthi are Vikings" model, as I started when Orlanthi were just normal people who worshipped Orlanth and his mates. The Storm Stead/Storm Tribe ideas appeared in Hero Wars and, while very evocative, they still don't really gel for me. Sure, I get the Clan/Tribe relationship and the importance of weregeld, honour and so on and it all fits. I see Orlanthi as Heroic Age people, similar to Vikings/Celts/Angles/Saxons/Homeric Greeks, with Mead Halls, Chieftains, Warriors and so on.

Where things get interesting is in the other cultures, such as Praxians. I really like the Praxian Culture and how they are described. Pavis is interesting, as it is a mixture of cultures, all trying to get on and never quite succeeding. Troll culture is fascinating. Even Mostali and Aldryami have interesting cultures. Balazarings were touched on, but not really well described, which is a shame. I'd love to see a proper rendition of Pentian/Grazelander culture, as that should be as interesting as the Praxians. Even the Lunar/Dara Happan cultures are interesting, especially where they diverge and what they have in common.

The powerhouse of Glorantha is, however, the cults. If you have a cult, you can see what the people who normally worship the cult are like. You see how they live, what they believe, how they act, who they generally like/dislike, what they do and don't do. It really shapes people in ways that their culture doesn't. 

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I think the main downside for me is that Glorantha has so much detail that some things might feel hard to change. I know that I'll get hammered with endless "YGWV", and I have to applaud the way the original authors seem to embrace variation in the fan community, but I'm very hesitant to run a game where Kally Starbrow doesn't get killed and is the one that effectively pushes the Lunars back, or one where Lunars regain their foothold over Dragon Pass by killing Argrath early in his career, or some other big change like that. Glorantha's strength is that PCs can be part of very heroic, high stakes events, but you gotta think twice about giving the players agency over the course of those events... if only because it's unclear how many future sourcebooks will actually rely on a specific timeline or not. So "you can affect the history of entire nations" may or may not be a 3rd selling point -- I'm not sure yet.

Take it from me - It is easy!

The "official" timeline is just a guideline as to what might happen in the future. If your PCs make changes, then all you need to do as a GM is to decide what effects those changes have. It's the same as with a scenario. If you have a scenario which says "The PCs meet Fred the Blacksmith" and then, at a later point in the scenario, "Fred brings the PCs a piece of Sky Metal that fell to the earth", but when the PCs met Fred there was a disagreement and they really annoyed him or killed him, then the GM either finds a way for someone else to bring them the Sky Metal, tell them that Fred had some Sky metal or find it themselves. It's the same with the Timeline. If the PCs really annoy Kallyr or Garrath Sharpsword, they become their enemies, which affects how they interact with the Hero Wars. If they kill a key NPC then they might take on that key NPC's role or the key NPC's actions might never happen or might be done by someone else. If your PCs are adventuring in a different place, then the Hero Wars events might happen in the background or might move to where the PCs are.

I have generally taken official scenarios and adapted them. Sometimes, I run them as they are, sometimes I run bits of them, but in a different order, sometimes I run a bit of one, a bit of another and so on. The scenarios should fit the campaign, although sometimes it is fun to run a campaign around a set of interconnected scenarios.

In one of my campaigns, the PCs killed Argrath, as he was seen as a potential rival by one of the PCs, which meant they had to kill Harrek, as he was mates with Argrath. They ended up becoming friends with the Red Emperor and the King of Balazar became an adopted son of the Red Emperor. In our most recent campaign, the River Voices brought back the Sky Ship, brought back a whole host of gods and goddesses, caused the Dragonrise, purged the Crimson bat of Chaos, killed Ralzakark, incarnated Arkat, freed Prax, Sartar, the Holy Country from the Lunars, became Queen of Prax and Mello Yello became both King of Dragon Pass and the Golden Dragon Emperor of Dara Happa. None of those followed the canonical timeline, but it worked because it was in the context of the campaigns.

So, don;t be afraid to change things. Let the PCs do something stupid or something that might change things in the future. It makes for a far more interesting campaign and the Players feel empowered, that they can make a difference.

 

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Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

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16 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Most of the Iron Age had all that, though.

Please stop with the "well, this is also Iron Age too" nonsense. As lordabdul said, "Bronze Age" has connotations and associations that lets Glorantha strongly contrast itself with other fantasy settings. In a popular culture where medieval-Viking-pseudoIrish-Scottish-Roman Empire settings are a dime a dozen (GoT, Skyrim. every fantasy series on Sky/Netflix/Amazon/etc), the more "Bronze Age" Mycenae/Hittite/Urnfield/Danubian/Sea People/Villenovan/Gilgamesh stuff all stands out as distinctive and different. Which is a good thing.

Are we using "Bronze Age" like careful archaeologists would? Of course not - this is a fantasy setting. But Bronze Age gives us a good and handy aesthetic tool for describing the setting.

 

 

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On 5/18/2019 at 2:59 AM, soltakss said:

Really don't play the bronze Age setting card.

Glorantha isn't really a Bronze Age setting. At least, we have never played it that way.

The strength of Glorantha is in its variety and depth. The strength of RuneQuest is in its simplicity, at its heart. Put them together and you get something like RQG, which , by and large, works.

I've been playing in Glorantha since 1982. RQ was my first RPG and Glorantha was my first RPG Setting. They were my first loves and I'll always come back to them.

What!? And there I thought your started with RQ3 and that it was your first love 😉

Although it is helpful to describe Glorantha as Bronze Age if only to set up a broad context and differentiate if from typical fantasy world, I believe it sells Glorantha short a bit. Glorantha is unique in the way it combines a diverse and detailed setting with a rich history and deep mythology and how it ties the characters to it all through cultures, communities and cults. After RuneQuest, every character creation system for other fantasy settings always seemed, for lack of better words, superficial or incomplete. Every religions in other settings, felt paper thin. Every setting itself seemed to lack texture.

Glorantha is a diverse sword and sandals setting where the players are embroiled in deep layers of cultural, political and religious conflicts. 

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3 hours ago, Jeff said:

>>The more "Bronze Age" Mycenae/Hittite/Urnfield/Danubian/Sea People/Villenovan/Gilgamesh stuff all stands out as distinctive and different. Which is a good thing.

I like to make the point that , IMO, much of the Thunder Rebels description of the Orlanthi riffed off Urnfield culture (start with the burial rites and work outwards) and is more interesting for that. I know that @Jeff doesn't see it that way.

Either way though, the stories of the Age of Bronze are much more interesting than the Dark Ages as models for Glorantha.

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3 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

What!? And there I thought your started with RQ3 and that it was your first love 😉

Nope started in RQ2 with Gringle's pawnshop and then bought the RQ2 rules box set the weekend afterwards. I kept asking the GM whether we had finished a campaign, so that I could go and buy the campaign set.

I prefer RQ3 to RQ2, as it has better rules, in my opinion, although RQ2 was far more atmospheric. RQG is better than both, anyway.

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Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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6 hours ago, soltakss said:

So, don;t be afraid to change things. Let the PCs do something stupid or something that might change things in the future. It makes for a far more interesting campaign and the Players feel empowered, that they can make a difference.

I agree, but that wasn't my point. I'm not afraid of doing all of that at the table. What I'm afraid of is what happens next: whether Chaosium will, in the next years, release half a dozen books that follow the "official" ("suggested"?) timeline (scenarios where you follow Argrath's rise to power, sourcebooks that describe places and cultures in 1627+). I don't know if there's ever been any official word on whether the RQG line will be "stuck in time", or if it will have some kind of setting advancement? If it's the latter, that means potentially more work to adapt future books to my campaign, or "missing out" on cool stuff that Chaosium publishes. The reason I'm mentioning all this is because I remember seeing some convention panel video where @Jeff and @Jason Durall mention that with RQG they wanted to finally advance the setting past the Lunar occupation, which has now lasted longer in the real world than in the official timeline :)

6 hours ago, Jeff said:

the more "Bronze Age" Mycenae/Hittite/Urnfield/Danubian/Sea People/Villenovan/Gilgamesh stuff all stands out as distinctive and different. Which is a good thing

I'd love to see some short "designer notes" for cultures, places, etc. Something like "for most Sartar tribes we get references for <blah> with a mix of <foobar> and a little bit of <other>", so then when players are creating their characters and clans, they (or their friendly GM) have a few names and keywords to look for pictures, or even bits of history, on the web. Would that be possible? On the old Glorantha website I found some notes written during the production of the GtG where you mentioned what kind of references you gave to artists for the book's illustrations, and that helps a bit but it's just hard to find given the state of that website.

Edited by lordabdul

Ludovic aka Lordabdul -- read and listen to  The God Learners , the Gloranthan podcast, newsletter, & blog !

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9 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

The reason I'm mentioning all this is because I remember seeing some convention panel video where @Jeff and @Jason Durall mention that with RQG they wanted to finally advance the setting past the Lunar occupation, which has now lasted longer in the real world than in the official timeline

They also said that the GM Sourcebook (or whatever it ends up being called) will include an overview of the Hero Wars campaign so you can see what is coming. But you're right, if you diverge from the background history and have Argrath killed off early, then it might require more work from you to adjust future scenarios that get released. Then again, if you are making big changes to the background history that kind of implies you're writing a lot of your own content anyway, so presumably it won't matter to your campaign?

But any Chaosium RQG releases that you don't end up using for your current campaign (because they're perhaps incompatible) you can always use for your next one. 

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3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

II'd love to see some short "designer notes" for cultures, places, etc. Something like "for most Sartar tribes we get references for <blah> with a mix of <foobar> and a little bit of <other>",

Blah, foobar and other: that's where foobar tends to turn into FUBAR.

Seriously, parallels aren't. Sample Sartarites are shown in various Glorantha publications, most recently (and most canonically) the RQG rules, the Red Cow books "The Coming Storm" and "Eleven Lights" for HeroQuest Glorantha (which also has typical sketches of Heortlings), and in the Guide to Glorantha. Plus we have the illustrations of Vasana and her companions. Is that sufficient pictorial material, or do you have to refer to half a dozen osprey books which all give details that are irrelevant or misleading when applied to Sartarites and their neighbors?

Urnfield and Hallstatt people did X, that means Orlanthi do that, too. The Myceneans did Y, that means the Orlanthi do that, too. So we get Micky Mouse hat-wearing proto-hoplites on penteconters in the highlands of Dragon Pass?

 

I hate the Greek Bronze Age references, and references to the Heroic Age when everybody was the son or grandson of at least one deity. Yes, there was such a period in Orlanthi history - it is called the Vingkotling Age, and it is probably about 200 generations ago. The Vingkotling Age is the age of demigod rulers, when everybody important was within very few generations from Orlanth. The heroes of the Hero Wars are at best avatars of their deities, with only a few demigods around. They are blue-collar demigods who have worked mightily to attain those ranks, even those bred for the job like Jar-eel and her son Phargentes.

This doesn't make their feats during the Hero Wars any less epic.

Edited by Joerg
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35 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Seriously, parallels aren't. Sample Sartarites are shown in various Glorantha publications, most recently (and most canonically) the RQG rules, the Red Cow books "The Coming Storm" and "Eleven Lights" for HeroQuest Glorantha (which also has typical sketches of Heortlings), and in the Guide to Glorantha. Plus we have the illustrations of Vasana and her companions. Is that sufficient pictorial material, or do you have to refer to half a dozen osprey books which all give details that are irrelevant or misleading when applied to Sartarites and their neighbors?

This isn't very helpful as a response to someone who is relatively new to RuneQuest and Glorantha - referring them to a bunch of HQ products they don't own, and the GtG which is for seasoned Gloranthaphiles rather than newbies.

36 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Urnfield and Hallstatt people did X, that means Orlanthi do that, too. The Myceneans did Y, that means the Orlanthi do that, too. So we get Micky Mouse hat-wearing proto-hoplites on penteconters in the highlands of Dragon Pass?

This is precisely what lordabdul appears to be trying to avoid by asking for a few notes on this forum.

37 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I hate the Greek Bronze Age references, and references to the Heroic Age when everybody was the son or grandson of at least one deity.

Feel free to hate away, but perhaps not as a response to someone new to the game who is making a reasonable request about something they are interested in?

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34 minutes ago, Sumath said:

This isn't very helpful as a response to someone who is relatively new to RuneQuest and Glorantha - referring them to a bunch of HQ products they don't own, and the GtG which is for seasoned Gloranthaphiles rather than newbies. 

This, thanks. And, given that this is "new to RQG" thread, it might not even be obvious that products for an entirely different game line are actually relevant to RQG. In my case, I do actually own most of those products, but not everyone is as wealthy and/or compulsive that they can spend $600 on books and PDFs for a game that they haven't even started to play (don't tell my wife). Normal people would just buy the RQG rulebook and go with that for a few adventures before investing more into it, and I think it's important for them to have a few references to draw upon in addition to just the illustrations in that book.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

So we get Micky Mouse hat-wearing proto-hoplites on penteconters in the highlands of Dragon Pass? 

I know that a couple of my players would definitely do a little bit of research to find a cool-looking weapon or piece of armour, coming back to me with a "Hey is this appropriate for a Bison tribe member? Does your book have stats for it?" (they did that a couple times in other past campaigns in other settings, but luckily we were using GURPS so 99% of the time I could find whatever they were asking for in GURPS Low Tech). But the key here is that the GM still has the final word, so if I want my Glorantha to have Mickey-Mouse hats, then yes, they will :)  Otherwise I would either correct them (maybe they ended up following the wrong cultural branch in their search) or just veto or discuss things (like, for instance, what they found interesting in this particular head piece... if they want fancy hair styles maybe they want to be from Nochet or something, for example).

Edited by lordabdul

Ludovic aka Lordabdul -- read and listen to  The God Learners , the Gloranthan podcast, newsletter, & blog !

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52 minutes ago, Sumath said:

This isn't very helpful as a response to someone who is relatively new to RuneQuest and Glorantha - referring them to a bunch of HQ products they don't own, and the GtG which is for seasoned Gloranthaphiles rather than newbies.

Giving unfiltered examples of Cypriotic glazings, Mesopotamian or Anatolian frescoes and Roman statuary copying classical Greek or Pontic statuary doesn't help much, either.

44 minutes ago, Sumath said:

This is precisely what lordabdul appears to be trying to avoid by asking for a few notes on this forum. 

Did I say that you have to buy these books? A simple image search with google (and probably other search engines of your choice) delivers samples of the artwork:

A link to Jan Pospisil's art from the Guide, the sourcebook and HQG. (Warning - might contain nipples, so you have to type in your age. I wonder what happens if you type in less than three months...)

https://www.deviantart.com/merlkir/art/HQG-Esroli-and-Pelorian-Influence-564421715

Also check out the gallery on the right side.

http://www.portablecity.net/character-designs-heroquest-glorantha/

A collection of character designs for the Red Cow books, from the artist's portfolio. Exactly the images I was talking about.

 

54 minutes ago, Sumath said:

Feel free to hate away, but perhaps not as a response to someone new to the game who is making a reasonable request about something they are interested in?

Sorry, but pointing to Osprey Trojan War pictures, or stultified/bowdlerized childrens books renditions thereof, is mis-information.

These samples are reasonably available in the artists portfolios, with meaningful search terms for anyone sufficiently literate to find a website. Look at the sources produced for canonical Gloranthan products, not some dubious pictures of Cu Chullain or Agamemnon, or the Hermann bronze statue in Teutoburger Wald. Or some Hollywood attempt at depicting period equipment. (Bollywood however might have some useful imagery. Just turn down the sound...)

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Oh and another thing to consider when limiting things to just the RQG books is that many illustrations are hard to interpret. For instance I was just reading the Skills chapter and there’s this awesome drawing on page 183 regarding Spirit Combat and Spirit Dance. The pointy slippers, strapped socks, furry robe and decorated scarf, the helmet with to spiral thingie, that’s all awesome! But I have zero idea what culture this guy is part of, so I can’t even use that as a reference for my players without searching for a bunch of keywords to match it against any of the short homeland descriptions.

(since he seems to have Wind powers my guess is that he’s a Sartarite shaman?)

Ludovic aka Lordabdul -- read and listen to  The God Learners , the Gloranthan podcast, newsletter, & blog !

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5 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Giving unfiltered examples of Cypriotic glazings, Mesopotamian or Anatolian frescoes and Roman statuary copying classical Greek or Pontic statuary doesn't help much, either.

Did I say that you have to buy these books? A simple image search with google (and probably other search engines of your choice) delivers samples of the artwork:

A link to Jan Pospisil's art from the Guide, the sourcebook and HQG. (Warning - might contain nipples, so you have to type in your age. I wonder what happens if you type in less than three months...)

https://www.deviantart.com/merlkir/art/HQG-Esroli-and-Pelorian-Influence-564421715

Also check out the gallery on the right side.

http://www.portablecity.net/character-designs-heroquest-glorantha/

A collection of character designs for the Red Cow books, from the artist's portfolio. Exactly the images I was talking about.

 

Sorry, but pointing to Osprey Trojan War pictures, or stultified/bowdlerized childrens books renditions thereof, is mis-information.

These samples are reasonably available in the artists portfolios, with meaningful search terms for anyone sufficiently literate to find a website. Look at the sources produced for canonical Gloranthan products, not some dubious pictures of Cu Chullain or Agamemnon, or the Hermann bronze statue in Teutoburger Wald. Or some Hollywood attempt at depicting period equipment. (Bollywood however might have some useful imagery. Just turn down the sound...)

Why argue against Osprey pictures, when lordabdul's post didn't even mention them? And citing specific pieces of archaeology that you don't believe would appear in Glorantha is also by the by. 

It's great that you've now provided some more examples of artists work though. 

 

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49 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Giving unfiltered examples of Cypriotic glazings, Mesopotamian or Anatolian frescoes and Roman statuary copying classical Greek or Pontic statuary doesn't help much, either. 

I'm confused by the fact that looking at illustrations for HQ books is ok, but learning about the designer notes that were given to artists to come up with said illustrations is not.

But thanks for the links :)

Ludovic aka Lordabdul -- read and listen to  The God Learners , the Gloranthan podcast, newsletter, & blog !

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3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

What I'm afraid of is what happens next: whether Chaosium will, in the next years, release half a dozen books that follow the "official" ("suggested"?) timeline (scenarios where you follow Argrath's rise to power, sourcebooks that describe places and cultures in 1627+). I don't know if there's ever been any official word on whether the RQG line will be "stuck in time", or if it will have some kind of setting advancement?

Yes, I'm sure they will to some extent. The general campaign arc (equivalent to the Great Pendragon Campaign) will get highlighted and will advance through the Hero Wars. You can surmise much of this already with King of Sartar, White Bear/Red Moon, and the bits at the end of the Guide, though.  Dragon Pass and southern Peloria will be battlegrounds between the forces of Argrath and those of the Lunar Empire.

3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I'd love to see some short "designer notes" for cultures, places, etc.

This should come as more regions are fleshed out.  Right now it's just getting the game out, getting some scenarios out for people to use and work with, but until those are available some of the existing texts (SKoH or Coming Storm for Sartar; Cults of Prax for Prax; the Guide for most other regions) are the best places to start.

3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

so then when players are creating their characters and clans, they (or their friendly GM) have a few names and keywords to look for pictures, or even bits of history, on the web. Would that be possible? On the old Glorantha website I found some notes written during the production of the GtG where you mentioned what kind of references you gave to artists for the book's illustrations

Much of the designer notes for the GtG art are encapsulated in the descriptions. It's just one picture per region or Elder Race, but does provide some flavor.  I agree it would be useful and interesting to see the art instructions for RQG pictures.  That said, where you are looking to understand specific pictures, you should be able to just ask here and get some reasonable ideas.

3 hours ago, Sumath said:

But any Chaosium RQG releases that you don't end up using for your current campaign (because they're perhaps incompatible) you can always use for your next one. 

Or realize that many pieces will work just fine in some other areas/regions with a little bit of adjustment. 

2 hours ago, Sumath said:

the GtG which is for seasoned Gloranthaphiles rather than newbies.

As the only book that covers most regions outside Dragon Pass, the Lunar Empire, or Prax, it's likely all we can do at this point. I'd just note that the Guide does not need to be thought of as for "seasoned Gloranthaphiles" only. I'd not dump it on my players or expect players to have read any of it, but for a GM or anyone interested in exploring the world, it's a nice work to browse in, dip the toes in, etc. 

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

there’s this awesome drawing on page 183 regarding Spirit Combat and Spirit Dance. The pointy slippers, strapped socks, furry robe and decorated scarf, the helmet with to spiral thingie, that’s all awesome! But I have zero idea what culture this guy is part of, so I can’t even use that as a reference for my players without searching for a bunch of keywords to match it against any of the short homeland descriptions.

(since he seems to have Wind powers my guess is that he’s a Sartarite shaman?)

Yes, agree that a brief guide to the art of RQG would be interesting.  Some of it clearly ties to Vasana's Saga, but this is a good example where it doesn't.  My interpretation of the piece: this is a God-talker or Storm Voice of Orlanth in ritual garb.  Why? The Movement and Air Runes on his outfit - these are Orlanth's runes. He's in a meditative or ritual pose, possibly praying to the Storm God and that is manifesting as some small amount of cloud over his hands.  (Given the 2-page spread, it can just as easily connect with the Meditation skill as Spirit Combat or Spirit Dance).  He might be casting Cloud Call.  Or he might be casting Wind Words (given the line of clouds to either ear). I would say Sartarite - nothing to explicitly connect him to another culture (but could equally be at home in northern Ralios, Aggar or Talastar, parts of Imther, etc.). He's not garbed for war, so unlike the cover picture, I don't see this as a Wind Lord.

43 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I'm confused by the fact that looking at illustrations for HQ books is ok, but learning about the designer notes that were given to artists to come up with said illustrations is not.

There is nothing wrong with doing so. I too would find it interesting.  

 

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11 hours ago, soltakss said:

The "official" timeline is just a guideline as to what might happen in the future. If your PCs make changes, then all you need to do as a GM is to decide what effects those changes have. It's the same as with a scenario. If you have a scenario which says "The PCs meet Fred the Blacksmith" and then, at a later point in the scenario, "Fred brings the PCs a piece of Sky Metal that fell to the earth", but when the PCs met Fred there was a disagreement and they really annoyed him or killed him, then the GM either finds a way for someone else to bring them the Sky Metal, tell them that Fred had some Sky metal or find it themselves. It's the same with the Timeline. If the PCs really annoy Kallyr or Garrath Sharpsword, they become their enemies, which affects how they interact with the Hero Wars. If they kill a key NPC then they might take on that key NPC's role or the key NPC's actions might never happen or might be done by someone else. If your PCs are adventuring in a different place, then the Hero Wars events might happen in the background or might move to where the PCs are.

 

Thanx soltakss I was hoping/figuring it would prove to be easy to split from canon. My game starts in Torkani lands the year of the Rebellion of the Righteous Wind. I have  always used 1611 as my starting point, but I have never been this far off canon before, 14 years or so, almost a generation. Still, I must have my Gringle arc as well as the Rainbow Mounds near the beginning of all my campaigns and that sets the time as before Gringle becomes a member of the Sartar ring.  Now with many ways to continue AL I think I will either begin Part 2 of the Apple Lane arc in a quiet year after 1613 when Gringle returns. 1614? Or maybe use the Sartar Companion (?) HQ Apple Lane set in 17 or 18?

I have always figured I would end up with some set days that not be changed a la Dr. Who (who?), of course that never stopped the good doctor before so we will see how it all unfolds.. What do you think Marty Jopson,  have we drifted to far off topic (probably) but are we still interesting, making it a little more forgivable?

Edited by Bill the barbarian

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12 hours ago, Jeff said:

Please stop with the "well, this is also Iron Age too" nonsense. As lordabdul said, "Bronze Age" has connotations and associations that lets Glorantha strongly contrast itself with other fantasy settings.

My apologies, I had not realised it was such a touchy subject.

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11 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

What do you think Marty Jopson,  have we drifted to far off topic (probably) but are we still interesting, making it a little more forgivable?

It’s all good stuff but... Honestly? We are now very far off topic from my perspective. While undeniably interesting to fans, a discussion of the relative merits of this or that historical culture and if RQ is Bronze or Iron Age is not going to help my players.

I have one story teller player (to use Robin Laws nomenclature) and she is the one I need buy in from. Once she is on board the rest will follow her lead. The issue is that the depth of background is getting in the way of explaining what the characters will be doing - which is after-all what they want to know in order to make an informed decision. 

Hmmm. On reflection maybe the issue is that I don’t know what the characters will be doing. Sure I have a handful of scenarios but I don’t have a one line, elevator pitch of the campaign arc. I don’t have a campaign arc. Chaosium has not given us a big meta plot yet. Sure - it’s the Hero Wars and this Argrath chap is on the rise, but so what? What will the characters be doing? I had figured that once I knew what the characters were I could build something suitably epic tailored to them. It’s a bit of a dilemma. 

I have decided to just use the material in the RQG Rulebook coupled with petty maps and the What the Priest / King says stuff. Keeping it simple (stupid)

Latest suggestion from a couple of players was for me to run Dragon Heist (DnD5) set in Ravnica world. Has the benefit that three people know the word a bit already. 

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27 minutes ago, Marty Jopson said:

It’s all good stuff but... Honestly? We are now very far off topic from my perspective. While undeniably interesting to fans, a discussion of the relative merits of this or that historical culture and if RQ is Bronze or Iron Age is not going to help my players.

Apologies Marty. Seems I inadvertently kicked this off asking for cultural comparators for Gloranthan cultures. I should have known better really.

To those who seem to have missed the point of the question, it was to give a quick hook to players who know nothing about Glorantha and at this point care not one jot about the details and differences. Of course the culture used as a hook is not the same as the Gloranthan culture, it's an approximation. Let's face it, these cultures didn't fall magically formed out of the authors' heads, they were influenced by ancient cultures from our world. So which are the best matches to get the idea across without a lecture on, say, Sartarite history and religion, or showing them pictures that have no context to them? I want a player to be inspired, "Great, I can be a native American bison rider," or "I like the sound of a chaos hating, flying-bull worshipping celt." At this point it doesn't matter that those comparators aren't quite right, if they're good enough the players won't be disappointed when they find out more about their character's culture in game.

 

27 minutes ago, Marty Jopson said:

Hmmm. On reflection maybe the issue is that I don’t know what the characters will be doing. Sure I have a handful of scenarios but I don’t have a one line, elevator pitch of the campaign arc. I don’t have a campaign arc. Chaosium has not given us a big meta plot yet. Sure - it’s the Hero Wars and this Argrath chap is on the rise, but so what? What will the characters be doing? I had figured that once I knew what the characters were I could build something suitably epic tailored to them. It’s a bit of a dilemma. 

Do you need to have a campaign arc right at the start? We tend to start something new with rolling characters and the intention of giving the new game a try with a one-shot. If people like it we carry on and it becomes a campaign, the story and the fleshing out happening as it goes. I guess it's a matter of group style and expectation.

 

27 minutes ago, Marty Jopson said:

Latest suggestion from a couple of players was for me to run Dragon Heist (DnD5) set in Ravnica world. Has the benefit that three people know the word a bit already. 

That would make me quietly sob a little if that was chosen over Glorantha :(  I jest, of course, and know my own biases. TBF, D&D5e has rather nailed it IMHO, and it's what we're playing at the moment. My lot are new to RPGs, though very seasoned boardgamers, and wanted to try it. It stuck… for now. RQG is next. 
 

10 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

My apologies, I had not realised it was such a touchy subject.

It seemed a rather strong response to me to. I was going to respond to an earlier post saying they thought the bronze age feel was pushed aggressively in the rulebook, by saying it didn't come across to me like that at all, but Jeff's response to you was, well, pretty aggressive. Not what I'd expect from a game's designer. Maybe you know each other and can give as good as you get.

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4 minutes ago, Cloud64 said:

It seemed a rather strong response to me to. I was going to respond to an earlier post saying they thought the bronze age feel was pushed aggressively in the rulebook, by saying it didn't come across to me like that at all, but Jeff's response to you was, well, pretty aggressive. Not what I'd expect from a game's designer. Maybe you know each other and can give as good as you get.

Don't worry about me, I've been around a while and should have seen that slug coming! Jeff knows I don't need the kid gloves.

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1 hour ago, Marty Jopson said:

Hmmm. On reflection maybe the issue is that I don’t know what the characters will be doing. Sure I have a handful of scenarios but I don’t have a one line, elevator pitch of the campaign arc. I don’t have a campaign arc. Chaosium has not given us a big meta plot yet. Sure - it’s the Hero Wars and this Argrath chap is on the rise, but so what? What will the characters be doing? I had figured that once I knew what the characters were I could build something suitably epic tailored to them. It’s a bit of a dilemma. 

Honestly, I build the campaign -- at least, the advanced parts -- based upon the characters.  If you've envisioned a Sartar/Lunar conflict campaign, but get PC's who are Yelornan & Esrolian... your campaign can still fit, but it's a bit forced for those PC's.

I understand you want to sell the game, get player buy-in, before asking them to do the long character-generation process... so you won't have PC's available to build a campaign from, to tell the players what the campaign will be like, so they will build PC's...  Catch-22...?

Tell them that their PC's will be part of their communities, part of their Cults.  In some places, they might be going on cattle-raids (or defending against, pursuing the rustlers).  In other places, they might be caravan-guards... or caravan-raiders.  They are likely to gain the notice of clan-chiefs and priests fairly quickly, get chosen for important missions for Clan or Cult.  Before long, they may be being asked what THEY think are the important missions for Clan & Cult... and then asked to fulfill them.

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C'es ne pas un .sig

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3 hours ago, Marty Jopson said:

I have one story teller player (to use Robin Laws nomenclature) and she is the one I need buy in from. Once she is on board the rest will follow her lead. The issue is that the depth of background is getting in the way of explaining what the characters will be doing - which is after-all what they want to know in order to make an informed decision. 

Depending on how long you will be playing in the setting, the players may eventually heroquest: enter the realm of their gods, experience their feats, and bring back magic from those experiences to change their fate. Knowing Jeff, I expect that the first heroquests for RQG are written, but I have no idea when they will be published.

Why do they enter the myths? Because some problem requires bigger than normal magic, possibly even some permanent change to the myths.

Until then, they will be tasked to help their communities to navigate difficult times.

3 hours ago, Marty Jopson said:

Hmmm. On reflection maybe the issue is that I don’t know what the characters will be doing. Sure I have a handful of scenarios but I don’t have a one line, elevator pitch of the campaign arc. I don’t have a campaign arc. Chaosium has not given us a big meta plot yet. Sure - it’s the Hero Wars and this Argrath chap is on the rise, but so what? What will the characters be doing? I had figured that once I knew what the characters were I could build something suitably epic tailored to them. It’s a bit of a dilemma. 

Indeed. The near future of Argrath will see his wooing of the Feathered Horse Queen (presumably covered at least in preparation in the announced Grazeland scenarios), a trip to the Holy Country to make peace there and to hire the Wolf Pirates, and his campaign to aid the Fazzurites against the King of Tarsh, leading to the conquest of Tarsh and the foul play of Mularik Ironeye on Argrath's honor - at least if your campaign (and the near future supplements' timeline) follows the outline in King of Sartar.

There are other things your campaign might do, in order to prepare the community for survival, possibly tied to some later activity of Argrath, and not necessarily always on his side.

The Telmori massacre is an opportunity to take a dissident position, at least to a faction among his supporters. The Wolf Runners may end up to be the Telmori tribe sworn to the Prince (whether from the bottom of their heart or in self-preservation), rather than their prospective slayers, and the actions of your players might create that outcome. Whichever side the player party may end on, the outcome will be significant to them.

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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