Vinga

[Goldennose]

There are many Vingas described in Glorantha publications... Cinsina Queen Ivartha The Skinner, Colymar Queen Leika Black-Spear,  Kallyr Starbrow, Inganna Konchensdottir (rebel), Enastara The Red (Maboder rebel), Erinina Copper-Axe (Champion of Orlmarth Clan).

I would very much like to understand this subcult of Orlanth better... Can Vinga for example get pregnant? We have played so that he can, but then she becomes woman and loses power from Orlanth. We have also played so that he won´t get pregnant if his hair is coloured in henna. But if he for some reason can´t color it, he can get pregnant.

 

Edited December 3, 2019 by Caras

[Qizilbashwoman]

4 hours ago, Caras said:

There are many Vingas described in Glorantha publications... Cinsina Queen Ivartha The Skinner, Colymar Queen Leika Black-Spear,  Kallyr Starbrow, Inganna Konchensdottir (rebel), Enastara The Red (Maboder rebel), Erinina Copper-Axe (Champion of Orlmarth Clan).

I would very much like to understand this subcult of Orlanth better... Can Vinga for example get pregnant? We have played so that he can, but then she becomes woman and loses power from Orlanth. We have also played so that he won´t get pregnant if his hair is coloured in henna. But if he for some reason can´t color it, he can get pregnant.

Vingans can get pregnant. There's a myth about this - Vinga made a deal with the Earth gods for birthing assistance after getting pregnant somehow. Vinga is usually Orlanth Adventurous (Larnsting) and is a method by which people with breasts can worship Orlanth. Officially Vinga is a form of Orlanth.

While the Guide to the Gods of Glorantha isn't out yet, traditionally "Vingan" also was a temporary role someone who wasn't an Orlanth worshipper could take on to avenge their dead husband or sons, dyeing their hair red and joining official Vingans in the war ranks. A mother avenging her sons or an aunt her nephew, for example, might be Ernaldans but temporarily be Vinga-sworn to go murder some people.

1 in 7 Orlanthi don't follow traditional roles; some might expect a child to end up with an Earth rune but instead they end up with an Air rune, and Orlanth-as-Vinga is there to be their god if that path is theirs.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[soltakss]

4 hours ago, Caras said:

I would very much like to understand this subcult of Orlanth better...

In some ways, it is just Orlanth Adventurous for women, a way to have female adventurers. However, we had female members of Orlanth way before Vinga appeared, so I am not sure that is a good enough reason to have the cult.

It is specifically aimed at those women who take the Adventurous path as a form of revenge, so dying hair red and leaving the household behind is a classic way of initiating into Vinga. 

Some people have given Vinga Gifts and Geases, like Humakt or Yelmalio, but I am not sure that fits.

It will be in the Gods and Goddesses of Glorantha, but I doubt whether it will have a full writeup, as it is seen very much as a variant of Orlanth.

4 hours ago, Caras said:

Can Vinga for example get pregnant? We have played so that he can, but then she becomes woman and loses power from Orlanth. We have also played so that he won´t get pregnant if his hair is coloured in henna. But if he for some reason can´t color it, he can get pregnant.

If Humakti can get pregnant then why not Vingans? Naimless was a female Humakti and she gave birth during a battle.

I get that they leave their normal female duties by dying their hair red, so they become like Orlanth not like Ernalda.

However, Orlanth Adventurous is fertile, as he fathers children on many goddesses and nymphs, so why shouldn't Vinga be fertile?

Of course, if you want to go with the dying of the hair preventing pregnancy, that works as well. It also gets around what happens when Adventuresses get pregnant.

[Akhôrahil]

1 minute ago, soltakss said:

It is specifically aimed at those women who take the Adventurous path as a form of revenge, so dying hair red and leaving the household behind is a classic way of initiating into Vinga. 

Also for women's self-defence when the men are not available for some reason - the women to dye their hair red and take up arms in defence of the community. Rules-wise, I imagine it would mean temporarily becoming lay members of Vinga?

[Sumath]

One of my players has rolled up a female pimp and she's a Vingan - a madam who is very capable of defending those working for her.

[Eff]

4 hours ago, Caras said:

There are many Vingas described in Glorantha publications... Cinsina Queen Ivartha The Skinner, Colymar Queen Leika Black-Spear,  Kallyr Starbrow, Inganna Konchensdottir (rebel), Enastara The Red (Maboder rebel), Erinina Copper-Axe (Champion of Orlmarth Clan).

I would very much like to understand this subcult of Orlanth better... Can Vinga for example get pregnant? We have played so that he can, but then she becomes woman and loses power from Orlanth. We have also played so that he won´t get pregnant if his hair is coloured in henna. But if he for some reason can´t color it, he can get pregnant.

 

The Vinga cult is said to be popular in Saird. This suggests that, like Barntar replacing Orlanth Thunderous, Vinga may well be a politically acceptable fig leaf for worship of Orlanth under Lunar rule (especially since the Red Woman iconography of Saird is presumably identified with both Vinga and Sedenya). 

Heroquest's 1st Edition is obviously an old source and in this specific instance is probably untrustworthy, but the Esrolian homeland in that book suggested Vinga was a major goddess for "foot soldiers" (as distinguished from the common "warriors" associated with the Thunder Brothers in that period of Gloranthan publications and their profusion of subcults). So we might well suggest that in relatively urbanized Orlanthi societies, the Vinga cult is socially important for providing a core of disciplined infantry for the city militias (and in turn the connection the most prominent Vingan, Kallyr Starbrow, has to Polaris/Rigsdal, takes on an intriguing aspect). 

King of Dragon Pass gives Vinga the blessings Pathfinder and Fyrdwomen, blessing explorers and allowing women to fight in the fyrd defensively. 

What do these mean, when taken together? That is, what does it mean that your clan has a Vinga shrine dedicated to a Fyrdwomen blessing? I will suggest, from these bits of evidence (popular in a more urbanized area, the HQ1 stuff, and KoDP) that this means your cult has a couple Vingans who dedicate their time to training women in fighting in the push-and-shove of shieldwall combat. I'm not sure what the Pathfinder blessing necessarily means, beyond Vingans possibly being ideally situated in steads and hides that are somewhat isolated from the tula (just like Elmali are best positioned on the edge of the clan's precincts). In other words, the subcult is distinct (albeit this distinction is an artifact of inertia) and not just totally absorbed in the way that Hedkoranth Thunderstone is because it provides unique social functions which clans find valuable. 

 

On the fertility aspect, there are of course levels of initiation, but I would suspect that someone deeply dedicated to Vinga not just in the warrior woman role but in the overall "performs masculine duties" role would have to worry more about impregnating partners than being impregnated after unprotected sex. Very much not something that should affect a player if they don't want to opt in, of course. 

[Jeff]

10 minutes ago, soltakss said:

In some ways, it is just Orlanth Adventurous for women, a way to have female adventurers. However, we had female members of Orlanth way before Vinga appeared, so I am not sure that is a good enough reason to have the cult.

It is specifically aimed at those women who take the Adventurous path as a form of revenge, so dying hair red and leaving the household behind is a classic way of initiating into Vinga. 

Some people have given Vinga Gifts and Geases, like Humakt or Yelmalio, but I am not sure that fits.

It will be in the Gods and Goddesses of Glorantha, but I doubt whether it will have a full writeup, as it is seen very much as a variant of Orlanth.

If Humakti can get pregnant then why not Vingans? Naimless was a female Humakti and she gave birth during a battle.

I get that they leave their normal female duties by dying their hair red, so they become like Orlanth not like Ernalda.

However, Orlanth Adventurous is fertile, as he fathers children on many goddesses and nymphs, so why shouldn't Vinga be fertile?

Of course, if you want to go with the dying of the hair preventing pregnancy, that works as well. It also gets around what happens when Adventuresses get pregnant.

Naimless did not give birth in battle. That was Eril Silksword and Alebard. There's a reason that other than a little reference to her in Wyrms Footprints, no additional references to that event in Greg's game has been made since the late 1970s.

[Jeff]

5 hours ago, Caras said:

There are many Vingas described in Glorantha publications... Cinsina Queen Ivartha The Skinner, Colymar Queen Leika Black-Spear,  Kallyr Starbrow, Inganna Konchensdottir (rebel), Enastara The Red (Maboder rebel), Erinina Copper-Axe (Champion of Orlmarth Clan).

I would very much like to understand this subcult of Orlanth better... Can Vinga for example get pregnant? We have played so that he can, but then she becomes woman and loses power from Orlanth. We have also played so that he won´t get pregnant if his hair is coloured in henna. But if he for some reason can´t color it, he can get pregnant.

 

Erannina is an initiate of Babeester Gor, not Vinga. 

At its most basic, Vinga is a female incarnation of Orlanth Adventurous. She is the divine feminine form of what is usually thought of as a masculine deity. She is usually worshiped as subcult of Orlanth, but sometimes her cult is independent. 

She does not have gifts or geases any more than Orlanth Adventurous or Barntar do. 

[Monty Lovering]

I think in the original write-ups of Vinga by, IIRC Jane Williams, it was for groups that didn't have female Orlanth devotees, those of initiate status and above would stop menustrating, most  would have their hair turn red and those that didn't would dye it with henna, and they had the Spirit Magic spell Droop, which does exactly what you might imagine it does.

That in particular is one of the many 'missing' Spirit Magic spells that I include in any campaign I run. Like Clean, Dry, Warm, etc..

[Goldennose]

Thank you all for answers... So basicly there are no restrictions for Vinga characters... Not anymore than Orlanth Adventurous worshiping men have. They are still women and can get pregnant. They just worship Vinga.

 

[Jeff]

59 minutes ago, Monty Lovering said:

I think in the original write-ups of Vinga by, IIRC Jane Williams, it was for groups that didn't have female Orlanth devotees, those of initiate status and above would stop menustrating, most  would have their hair turn red and those that didn't would dye it with henna, and they had the Spirit Magic spell Droop, which does exactly what you might imagine it does.

That in particular is one of the many 'missing' Spirit Magic spells that I include in any campaign I run. Like Clean, Dry, Warm, etc..

As was mentioned in another thread, Greg was very dissatisfied with that writeup. Use it for your own Glorantha if you like, but that is not our take on the cult and none of the published material is or will be based on that version.

[Sir_Godspeed]

2 hours ago, Caras said:

Thank you all for answers... So basicly there are no restrictions for Vinga characters... Not anymore than Orlanth Adventurous worshiping men have. They are still women and can get pregnant. They just worship Vinga.

 

Yes. 

Though socially - outside of warfare and raiding - it's my understanding that a permanent membership of the Vinga cult is used for those born as females to live in a way that allows them to perform men's work. As a tentative example, a Vingan is likely to avoid doing weaving work, since that is a task considered feminine in Orlanthi society, and the weaving house is the nucleus of women's socializing, iirc. 

Whether one argues that this literally makes them men (in the sense of social gender) or a separate gender (third/fourth, etc.), or simply a variant of women with masculine duties is purposefully left a bit vague, I think. 

I've seen some make a distinction between capital-v Vingans and small-v vingans. The former emphasizing the heroic martial exploits emulating the goddess in a cult-context, whereas the latter denotes a particular gender role that relates to female-bodied (or Earth-runed if you will) people doing men's work in general.

What I *would* suggest is at least that our contemporary gender ideas are not wholly suited to capture the nuances of Orlanthi gender ideas. 

In other words, make of them what you and all your players find suitable, interesting and comfortable.

3 hours ago, Eff said:

On the fertility aspect, there are of course levels of initiation, but I would suspect that someone deeply dedicated to Vinga not just in the warrior woman role but in the overall "performs masculine duties" role would have to worry more about impregnating partners than being impregnated after unprotected sex. Very much not something that should affect a player if they don't want to opt in, of course. 

It's interesting that I characterized warrior vingans as "deeper into" the cult of Vinga than masculine-work vingans, whereas you did the opposite. Hopefully without overstating my position, I would say that both perspectives are possible. If one sees Vinga as the god of female-bodied people doing men's work, then those living such a life long-term are perhaps more in tune with Vinga, whereas if one sees Vinga as a god that allows female-bodied people to take part in Orlanth's heroic adventures and quests, then vice versa. Maybe it touches on perceptions of masculinity in general, and whether one considers tilling the fields and fixing the fences as a lifestyle more deeply masculine than going off on cattle raids or hunting down an enemy or not, or a question of ordinary work versus extraordinary work, and how myths tend to overstate the importance of the latter because, frankly, they are more exciting (sorry, getting a bit abstract here). And then of course there undoubtedly those who combine the two. I could be wildly wrong, or maybe I was merely seduced by the promise of adventure myself.

3 hours ago, Eff said:

What do these mean, when taken together? That is, what does it mean that your clan has a Vinga shrine dedicated to a Fyrdwomen blessing? I will suggest, from these bits of evidence (popular in a more urbanized area, the HQ1 stuff, and KoDP) that this means your cult has a couple Vingans who dedicate their time to training women in fighting in the push-and-shove of shieldwall combat. I'm not sure what the Pathfinder blessing necessarily means, beyond Vingans possibly being ideally situated in steads and hides that are somewhat isolated from the tula (just like Elmali are best positioned on the edge of the clan's precincts). In other words, the subcult is distinct (albeit this distinction is an artifact of inertia) and not just totally absorbed in the way that Hedkoranth Thunderstone is because it provides unique social functions which clans find valuable. 

 

A bit of an aside, but Vinga has the title of Defending Storm, and was left behind to guard the Storm Stead while Orlanthi was on the Lightbringer's Quest, so there's a mythic precedent for her taking a defensive role - although she did also participate in events that are not clearly marked as defensive, so it's not like it's a clear cut thing. 

Secondly, we do have Enferalda: Ernalda as Orlanth's battle support. In the Book of Heortling Mythology, there is an instance where Ernalda is told by Orlanth that the only way to fix a particular problem is through battle, so she then disguises herself, takes the pseudonym Enferalda, and basically becomes Orlanth's squire. She carries more than he thinks is possible (this role seems to focus on raw endurance and strength), and aids him all along the quest (and she also flirts a lot with him, much to his embarassment, as he trying to stay faithful to his wife back home).

This is clearly not a very heroic-in-itself kind of cult, and does not suit the Orlanthi woman who wants to hunt down the bastard that hurt her kin and shove a spear through their gut, but it is consistently mentioned alongside the other War Women. I can't offer Runequest players any Rune spells or mechanics with which to emulate this role, but I would say that it at least offers Orlanthi women a mythic precedence, and possible a subcult for assisting their warriors (in general, imho) in combat, or on longer campaigns, and without changing any cult-allegienaces.

 I tried to find references to her literally fighting, but I couldn't quite find it, the story instead focusing on her providing alternate ideas (possibly strategies?), setting up camp, carrying supplies, and so on. But it's there as a general "women go off on campaign as active military personnel" (as far as such a term can be used before the advent of modern armies). Like some kind of one-woman pioneer/combat engineer/logistics corps (or as mentioned above: squire, I guess. A role she seems to share with Heler).

[Eff]

38 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Yes. 

Though socially - outside of warfare and raiding - it's my understanding that a permanent membership of the Vinga cult is used for those born as females to live in a way that allows them to perform men's work. As a tentative example, a Vingan is likely to avoid doing weaving work, since that is a task considered feminine in Orlanthi society, and the weaving house is the nucleus of women's socializing, iirc. 

Whether one argues that this literally makes them men (in the sense of social gender) or a separate gender (third/fourth, etc.), or simply a variant of women with masculine duties is purposefully left a bit vague, I think. 

I've seen some make a distinction between capital-v Vingans and small-v vingans. The former emphasizing the heroic martial exploits emulating the goddess in a cult-context, whereas the latter denotes a particular gender role that relates to female-bodied (or Earth-runed if you will) people doing men's work in general.

What I *would* suggest is at least that our contemporary gender ideas are not wholly suited to capture the nuances of Orlanthi gender ideas. 

In other words, make of them what you and all your players find suitable, interesting and comfortable.

It's interesting that I characterized warrior vingans as "deeper into" the cult of Vinga than masculine-work vingans, whereas you did the opposite. Hopefully without overstating my position, I would say that both perspectives are possible. If one sees Vinga as the god of female-bodied people doing men's work, then those living such a life long-term are perhaps more in tune with Vinga, whereas if one sees Vinga as a god that allows female-bodied people to take part in Orlanth's heroic adventures and quests, then vice versa. Maybe it touches on perceptions of masculinity in general, and whether one considers tilling the fields and fixing the fences as a lifestyle more deeply masculine than going off on cattle raids or hunting down an enemy or not, or a question of ordinary work versus extraordinary work, and how myths tend to overstate the importance of the latter because, frankly, they are more exciting (sorry, getting a bit abstract here). And then of course there undoubtedly those who combine the two. I could be wildly wrong, or maybe I was merely seduced by the promise of adventure myself.

A bit of an aside, but Vinga has the title of Defending Storm, and was left behind to guard the Storm Stead while Orlanthi was on the Lightbringer's Quest, so there's a mythic precedent for her taking a defensive role - although she did also participate in events that are not clearly marked as defensive, so it's not like it's a clear cut thing. 

Secondly, we do have Enferalda: Ernalda as Orlanth's battle support. In the Book of Heortling Mythology, there is an instance where Ernalda is told by Orlanth that the only way to fix a particular problem is through battle, so she then disguises herself, takes the pseudonym Enferalda, and basically becomes Orlanth's squire. She carries more than he thinks is possible (this role seems to focus on raw endurance and strength), and aids him all along the quest (and she also flirts a lot with him, much to his embarassment, as he trying to stay faithful to his wife back home).

This is clearly not a very heroic-in-itself kind of cult, and does not suit the Orlanthi woman who wants to hunt down the bastard that hurt her kin and shove a spear through their gut, but it is consistently mentioned alongside the other War Women. I can't offer Runequest players any Rune spells or mechanics with which to emulate this role, but I would say that it at least offers Orlanthi women a mythic precedence, and possible a subcult for assisting their warriors (in general, imho) in combat, or on longer campaigns, and without changing any cult-allegienaces.

 I tried to find references to her literally fighting, but I couldn't quite find it, the story instead focusing on her providing alternate ideas (possibly strategies?), setting up camp, carrying supplies, and so on. But it's there as a general "women go off on campaign as active military personnel" (as far as such a term can be used before the advent of modern armies). Like some kind of one-woman pioneer/combat engineer/logistics corps (or as mentioned above: squire, I guess. A role she seems to share with Heler).

Well, I actually see them as parallel. You can go deeper on either "track", (a surface level of the plower-and-sower role might well be what a friend described as her view of the prototypical Vingan: a sunburned woman sitting on a dock and fishing without a care in the world) and eventually emerge somewhere in deep mysteries. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

53 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

 I tried to find references to her literally fighting, but I couldn't quite find it, the story instead focusing on her providing alternate ideas (possibly strategies?), setting up camp, carrying supplies, and so on. But it's there as a general "women go off on campaign as active military personnel" (as far as such a term can be used before the advent of modern armies). Like some kind of one-woman pioneer/combat engineer/logistics corps (or as mentioned above: squire, I guess. A role she seems to share with Heler).

In real life societies, the role of pioneer was often held by groups of women, who went off on long hunting and raiding trips with men. The important bit of women's work got done, the women got to do some men's work, and most of the time people got to have sex and/or have sex. The trail is a liminal space of sorts.

Some women specialised in pioneer work and didn't really marry!

Also, lmao Heler/a, of course.

[Monty Lovering]

13 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Griffin Mountain featured a female Orlanthi, (Vinga didn't exist yet) "Pay Surney" (a tribute to an RQ co-author).  Is that now illegal?  It also featured a memorable female Yelmalian Light "Son", Staryna Stormrender.

It makes some mythic sense, but the whole "female = Earth, male = Storm/Fire" isn't in the rules.  RQG doesn't have an entry under character creation "PCs with breasts may choose to add +20% to their Earth Rune".

In summary, there's no need for this complication.  Just let players play what they want.

But, does make me wonder, is Sartar (+10% Storm Rune)  the site of some toxic testosteronal waste dump after the Dragonkill War?  🙂

To be honest I never saw the point of patriarchal fantasy societies. To much like reality. 

[g33k]

6 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Also for women's self-defence when the men are not available for some reason ...

This specific case also strikes me as Babeester-Gor-like... I could see some sort of Vinga / B.Gor as an ambiguous or even formally dualistic thing.

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Griffin Mountain featured a female Orlanthi, (Vinga didn't exist yet) "Pay Surney" (a tribute to an RQ co-author).  Is that now illegal?  It also featured a memorable female Yelmalian Light "Son", Staryna Stormrender.

I would only restrict membership to those cults that have gender restrictions.

So, Yelm and Waha only allow male members (Tee, hee), so I wouldn't allow female Initiates of Yelm or Waha.

Orlanth is not gender restricted, neither is Yelmalio, so female cultists are fine.

As to why a female would want to join Orlanth rather than Vinga or Yelmalio rather than Yelorna, that is a matter for Backstory or Gameplay.

 

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

This specific case also strikes me as Babeester-Gor-like... I could see some sort of Vinga / B.Gor as an ambiguous or even formally dualistic thing.

Not to me. Babeester Gor is bloody vengeance (and specifically temple defence), while Vinga is protection.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[g33k]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Not to me. Babeester Gor is bloody vengeance, where Vinga is protection.

She was born/created of Her Mother's need, when all the Husband-Protectors were away.

The Axe Maidens are just as much Earth-Temple protectresses, as bloody vengeance.

And Vinga is as apt to a woman's need for vengeance, as to protect.

[soltakss]

8 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

And do we really need a whole cult for icy unicorn riding virgins? 

Yes, of course we do.

[g33k]

32 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

...

And do we really need a whole cult for icy unicorn riding virgins?  Stereotypes anyone?

"Icy"?  I tend to think of the Yelornans as being relatively passionate, hot-blooded.  Not in any erotic sense, just deeply committed to their ideals.

But the unicorn/virgin link goes back quite a ways, culturally.  Hard to disentangle those, not sure it needs to be done.  Star Huntress, Sun-Daughter... Sky/Fire has "purity" as a central tenet, and unicorns~purity is another ancient link.

If you're gonna have unicorn riders, best they be virgins.  Because a horse with a pointy horn is... frankly, not a unicorn.

I'm not saying the tropes don't merit examination, careful handling, maybe some table-talk & session-zero'ing about whether it's a good idea for this game, at this table...   But don't make the baby/bathwater mistake!  😁

[Sir_Godspeed]

2 hours ago, Monty Lovering said:

To be honest I never saw the point of patriarchal fantasy societies. To much like reality. 

While that is a perfectly valid opinion, in the case of Orlanthi there is some debate to be made over whether they truly are patriarchal - at least in the anthropological sense (which I admit is narrower than some other usages of the term). We know that women can own property, that they have equal rights to representation in matters of law and dispute (ie. they do not rely on their male relatives/sponsors), and that they can have political offices (ie. be on the ring, be chiefs, and even princes, even - Vinga seems to allow for pretty much the same royal ritual roles as well.) 

A general issue is of course that in a stateless society, or at the very least a pre-modern polity, the lack of enforceable laws and protections, men are more likely to commit abusive on women acts without repercussion. I don't think this is something that most players really want to explore, and instead, most cases of this are likely to a) be presented as universally bad by both PCs and NPCs, and b) be the catalyst for revenge, both for the PCs as possibly an encounter or mission, or institutionalized in-universe through deities like Babeester Gor or even Maran Gor.

Orlanthi society probably sees itself as "complimentary" rather than patriarchal. While in RW history, the term "complimentary" is often a somewhat weasely way of saying that women hold informal power, but not public formal power, in Orlanthi culture women seem to possess both. 

When looking at clan chiefs and tribal kings, and even kingdom/confederation kings, there is certainly a massive tendency towards males holding these positions, in Glorantha there is a question on whether these actually hold more power than, say, a very powerful Earth priestess at a central temple, for example. Stable political leadership in Orlanthi societies seem to be based on alliances between such institutions. A bit like the Emperor and Pope allying, if you will.

We also known that there is a larger amount of social space in Orlanthi culture that is fairly gender inclusive, such as the cults of Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Chalana Arroy and even Humakt and Storm Bull (though most of these have generally masculine imagery). 

We also have questions of locality and lineality, which does vary, but that does have a trend towards patrilocality and patrilineality. 

In summary: Orlanthi political leadership does seem to hold a certain masculinity as default, though the whole image is more complex. I'd certainly say that men generally have more opportunity to violently seize power and abuse said power if they desire, which is a bad sign, but such rulerships are likely to be short and unstable. We also see in Esrolia that they certainly saw Heortling political leadership as essentially masculine, and rebelled against it - though by instituting a much more gender-exclusive political model than other Heortlings have, iirc. 

Anyway, this is dragging away from the OP. If people want women to be able to join the Orlanth cult in itself (whether Thunderous or Adventurous or Rex or whatever) - I mean, there is literally no one who can stop you. Nor should they be able to. It might also be something that's done on a case-by-case basis (ie. varying from tribe to tribe, or temple to temple or something. Polytheism is rarely uniform).

Edited December 3, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[Sir_Godspeed]

3 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

In real life societies, the role of pioneer was often held by groups of women, who went off on long hunting and raiding trips with men. The important bit of women's work got done, the women got to do some men's work, and most of the time people got to have sex and/or have sex. The trail is a liminal space of sorts.

 

If you have any references or sources on that, I'd love to see any. This sounds like a great story-hook.

Quote

Well, I actually see them as parallel. You can go deeper on either "track", (a surface level of the plower-and-sower role might well be what a friend described as her view of the prototypical Vingan: a sunburned woman sitting on a dock and fishing without a care in the world) and eventually emerge somewhere in deep mysteries. 

Legend of Vinga: Breath of the Wild sounds super-chill. Yes, please.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[Tindalos]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Ultimately, guess I'm asking why we even have a Vinga and a Yelorna?  I just want to run a capable, empowered, a slight "chip on her shoulder" female Sartarite warrior.  If Greg and Jeff want to get rid of all the older Vingan myths that many enjoyed, which is certainly their prerogative, what is the purpose of the cult?  Just have Orlanth.  Maybe the new Cults of Glorantha book will explain.

I'd say those myths really still exist.

There's some interesting new truths to be discovered there as well. Vinga proving herself to the storm tribe also takes on a "King Incognito" feel, where Vinga may once have enjoyed the throne as Orlanth, but after returning from exile as Vinga, now has to prove herself to the people who do not recognise her.

[Beoferret]

Personally, I like to think of vingans as a lifepath, permanent or temporary, that's mainly for scrappy, adventurous tomboys (and some butch lesbians as well.)