Pavis Chronology

[GAZZA]

I've been doing a bit of "deep background" reading for my Praxian campaign (which is about to head into the Big Rubble to take care of Oll and the gorp plague), so I'm reading Pavis/Big Rubble (the reprinted one from Moon Design, if that matters). On page 55 there is a chronology of Pavis that appears to very very strongly imply that Waha and Pavis were active around the 9th century (i.e. 800-877 or so).

My understanding was that gods couldn't do that; that once the God Time ended, gods couldn't just waltz around Glorantha making friends with giants and bashing down cities, nor could those cities raise their own gods to fight back. So that suggests that Pavis is a created god not too dissimilar to Osentalka/Nysalor/Gbaji/WhateverYouWantToCallTheFirstAgeIlluminatedDude - fair enough - but also that Waha was some sort of created god too. My understanding was that Waha was the bloke that taught Peaceful Cut and separated the men and the beasts, so it is surprising to me that he wasn't around in the God Time, as that suggests that there was a time in the First Age (or even Second Age, since I believe the time frame here is that of the God Learners and EWF, which is supported by a few references in the chronology) that there were, presumably, human intellect herd beasts running around if Waha was responsible for sorting out the eaters and the eaten.

Which means I'm wrong on some or all of those assumptions - which ones?

Edited April 30, 2020 by GAZZA
Spelling correction.

[metcalph]

51 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

On page 55 there is a chronology of Pavis that appears to very very strongly imply that Waha and Pavis were active around the 9th century (i.e. 800-877 or so).

My understanding was that gods couldn't do that; that once the God Time ended, gods couldn't just waltz around Glorantha making friends with giants and bashing down cities, nor could those cities raise their own gods to fight back. So that suggests that Pavis is a created god not too dissimilar to Osentalka/Nysalor/Gbaji/WhateverYouWantToCallTheFirstAgeIlluminatedDude - fair enough -

Pavis is not a created God but a man who became a God.

51 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

but also that Waha was some sort of created god too.

Or that the Greatest Khan in Prax heroformed Waha for special occasions so that afterwards everybody says it was Waha.

[GAZZA]

OK, cheers, but that raises a couple of (not strictly speaking related) questions. Doesn't apotheosis break the Compromise? (Although I guess Osentalka kind of started that off, and Sedenya could also be regarded as at least stretching it). Or is Pavis a "god" in the "extremely powerful Hero" sense, akin more to Harrek or the Razoress? (Though I realise that at some point the distinction between what used to be called a Superhero and a God is somewhat blurred, at best).

Is the Compromise not common knowledge to Gloranthans? Would it not be obvious that it couldn't have "really" been Waha but rather some Waha Heroquester (or whatever), such that recording that in the history books as being the actual god would be instantly seen as false? I have a copy of the Glorious Reascent of Yelm but I must confess I find it largely impenetrable (I don't find King of Sartar to be a very good read either, to be honest - and I'm sure that's on me, but still); however I understand that it suggests that Yelm worshippers have recorded history that goes back to the God Time and do not measure time in the same way (which is interesting, since Time itself wasn't supposed to exist before the Dawn, but I'm assuming there's a fair bit of poetic license involved in saying that the God Time was timeless).

Eh, I'm not even sure myself if I'm asking the right questions; perhaps this is a better question in the Ask Jeff forum.

[GAZZA]

(But by the way, thank you very much @metcalph for the reply - I don't wish my endless novice status to be seen as ingratitude  ).

Edited April 30, 2020 by GAZZA

[metcalph]

9 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

OK, cheers, but that raises a couple of (not strictly speaking related) questions. Doesn't apotheosis break the Compromise?

The following people (excluding those nasty Lunars) have been apotheosized:

• Dormal
• Belintar
• Arkat
• Sartar

There is nothing in the Compromise that prevents people from becoming Gods.  Three Gods (Nysalor, Zistor, Red Goddess) are accused of breaking the Compromise with their creation.

9 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

 Or is Pavis a "god" in the "extremely powerful Hero" sense, akin more to Harrek or the Razoress?

Looking at the Cult of Pavis, one has to wonder what observable difference there is between a God and a worshipped Hero.

9 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

Is the Compromise not common knowledge to Gloranthans? Would it not be obvious that it couldn't have "really" been Waha but rather some Waha Heroquester (or whatever), such that recording that in the history books as being the actual god would be instantly seen as false?

The modern Praxians say that it was Waha and should you continue to disagree, they have this nice anthill on which you can meditate on the error of your ways.  If asked, the Lhankorings in Pavis might say the Compromise bound the Gods to act in ways they have already acted.  Since Waha lived through his children before, there was nothing to stop him from doing so within Time.   A more interesting question might be why Waha was able to act in the Imperial Age when he did nothing in the Dawn Age?

9 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

I have a copy of the Glorious Reascent of Yelm but I must confess I find it largely impenetrable (I don't find King of Sartar to be a very good read either, to be honest - and I'm sure that's on me, but still); however I understand that it suggests that Yelm worshippers have recorded history that goes back to the God Time and do not measure time in the same way (which is interesting, since Time itself wasn't supposed to exist before the Dawn, but I'm assuming there's a fair bit of poetic license involved in saying that the God Time was timeless).

The Orlanthi and Dara Happans have very different ideas about what the Compromise involved - the Dara Happans think it was rather the rebel gods selfishly submitting to Yelm.  As for God Time chronology, even the Orlanthi can admit there was night and day in the God Time and that generations of men lived and died pretty much as we do today.  There's even an Orlanthi myth which suggests the years back then had 294 days, precisely the same as now.  But the Orlanthi are bored with year dates and prefer to count things through reigns and generations.  The effect of the myths is largely the same.

 

[Eff]

46 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

OK, cheers, but that raises a couple of (not strictly speaking related) questions. Doesn't apotheosis break the Compromise? (Although I guess Osentalka kind of started that off, and Sedenya could also be regarded as at least stretching it). Or is Pavis a "god" in the "extremely powerful Hero" sense, akin more to Harrek or the Razoress? (Though I realise that at some point the distinction between what used to be called a Superhero and a God is somewhat blurred, at best).

Is the Compromise not common knowledge to Gloranthans? Would it not be obvious that it couldn't have "really" been Waha but rather some Waha Heroquester (or whatever), such that recording that in the history books as being the actual god would be instantly seen as false? I have a copy of the Glorious Reascent of Yelm but I must confess I find it largely impenetrable (I don't find King of Sartar to be a very good read either, to be honest - and I'm sure that's on me, but still); however I understand that it suggests that Yelm worshippers have recorded history that goes back to the God Time and do not measure time in the same way (which is interesting, since Time itself wasn't supposed to exist before the Dawn, but I'm assuming there's a fair bit of poetic license involved in saying that the God Time was timeless).

Eh, I'm not even sure myself if I'm asking the right questions; perhaps this is a better question in the Ask Jeff forum.

Well, the Compromise certainly appears to have rather large loopholes. Things that definitely don't violate the Compromise:

- Ezkankekko walking around and doing things. 

- Praxians heroforming/incarnating Waha so frequently or so deeply they're described as him by historical sources.

- Belintar's deal where he uses a succession of mortals as his "horse" to act within Time.

- Being a True Dragon.

Things that have been accused of violating the Compromise but which don't seem to have definitely provoked divine intervention:

- Nysalor's creation.

- Zistor's creation.

- Sedenya's creation.

Things that definitely provoked divine intervention of some kind:

- The Battle of Night and Day.

- Something that happened in the final stages of the siege of the Clanking City. 

- Something that happened shortly before the Battle of Castle Blue. 

Things that probably should violate the Compromise as most perspectives have it, but which don't/aren't marked out as a violation: 

- Tearing a hole in Glorantha so you can quickly zip from the bottom of the Underworld to a camp outside Torang (First Battle of Chaos)

- The Fourth Arrow of Light. 

There are probably others that I'm not recalling at this time. Of course, as @metcalph notes above, the Compromise isn't a document that you can read, it's an understanding that the universe is consciously maintained via willful effort that emphasizes refraining from actions, and different cultures will understand how that maintenance happens and what kind of divine restriction from action mirrors mortal codes of behavior in different ways.

 

So perhaps we might say that the effective text of the Compromise is an agreement to limit your interventions in the mortal world to acting via mortal means- you can possess a human, even for an extended length of time, you can even be walking around in the mortal world, as long as you act for most intents and purposes like a mortal- but two of the things which definitely "freed the gods to act" are physical incarnations of deities that seem to be somewhat more complete than standard heroforming- the Clanking City taking shape as Zistor, the Black Eater emerging at the Battle of Night and Day. So perhaps it's all about making sure nobody shows up in their full glory in the fragile Middle World. 

 

Edit: There is one particular consequence of this interpretation for how we understand the apotheosis of the Red Goddess and just what exactly She was between Her incarnation and Her Godquest, or perhaps even Her incarnation and the rise of the Red Moon. 

Edited April 30, 2020 by Eff

[Nick Brooke]

19 minutes ago, Eff said:

There are probably others that I'm not recalling at this time... 

Glamour lives in her city, and narrates the lives of its inhabitants. You heard it here, first.

[Stephen L]

4 hours ago, GAZZA said:

Would it not be obvious that it couldn't have "really" been Waha but rather some Waha Heroquester

Waha manifests again through/in his followers.  That is within the compromise. If you are seeing a khan standing in for Waha, rather than Waha himself, then that’s just means you failed your devotion roll.  And does it really matter whether its Waha himself, or Waha manifest in a Khan, is there a difference?  A difference that maters, that is.

If you cast a thunderbolt, you are manifesting Orlanth in a small way (it might not seem so small if you’re on the receiving end!), more heroic efforts might mean you manifest Orlanth more completely.  The compromise only means that Orlanth cannot act directly, only through the means of a follower.

Isn’t the origin of the word Avatar as the mortal manifestation of a god?  So perhaps mortals are the gods going online to play a game…
 

3 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

narrates the lives of its inhabitants

Is that narrative of past, present or future lives?

[Nick Brooke]

1 minute ago, Stephen L said:

Is that narrative of past, present or future lives?

Yes.

[Stephen L]

49 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Yes.

Through the media of basket weaving?

[Sir_Godspeed]

40 minutes ago, Stephen L said:

Isn’t the origin of the word Avatar as the mortal manifestation of a god?

Yup, Sanskrit. Or at least from Hinduism.

[GAZZA]

Interesting stuff. I can honestly say I don't recognise most of the events @Eff has referred to above (so I will have to downgrade myself from "Gloranthan Novice" to "Who is this Glorantha guy anyway" status), but I especially like the whole "hey, if you saw Bob instead of Waha, you must not be very devoted to Waha".

In particular this means that essentially no existing god could defeat Nysalor/Gbaji or (in more modern times) Sedenya - Arkat couldn't have prevailed as "merely" an incarnation/descendent of Humakt, Argrath couldn't have prevailed as "merely" an incarnation of Orlanth. To quote Arrow: "I had to become someone else - I had to become something else". Which is very cool, and will have to be something I can figure out for my players to do themselves eventually.

[Dissolv]

9 hours ago, GAZZA said:

In particular this means that essentially no existing god could defeat Nysalor/Gbaji or (in more modern times) Sedenya - Arkat couldn't have prevailed as "merely" an incarnation/descendent of Humakt, Argrath couldn't have prevailed as "merely" an incarnation of Orlanth. To quote Arrow: "I had to become someone else - I had to become something else". Which is very cool, and will have to be something I can figure out for my players to do themselves eventually.

 

This really hits the nail on the head for something missing in Glorantha gaming, and particularly Runequest.  It's clear that there are pathways to becoming much more than the rules will current allow.  It is also clear that pursuing these paths of power is a major tenant of (and probably reason for the terribleness of) the Hero Wars.  But there is nothing mechanically on how to actually get there.  It is 100% sorted out between the players and the Gamemaster. 

My most high powered campaign to date was really "Soltakss level out there".  It featured dimensional travel, PC direct assault on a Temple of the Reaching Moon, a recurring villain with a sword that used the  Mournblade stats (and he was considered a minor villain!), geometric sorcery -- a la Pythagoras, etc.  A major problem was that many of the players tried to improve in power in a manner similar to D&D or most other fantasy RPG's.  They played the game and passively collected their rewards.  A new sword with a better matrix, iron gear, another power crystal.  These things add up, and can eventually make the PC's Coder level.  Eventually.  I've been very hesitant to game at that power level ever again.  As GM I was just making things up as I went.  While it made a good story, I wasn't sure it was the Glorantha story after a while.   Luckily I've learned that there is plenty of drama and good gaming at power levels that can barely change a village, let alone topple the moon.

My big observation was that the players who were really all about it did it differently.  Once they hit the basic upper level prescribed in the rules (Rune Lord Priest, generally) they actively pursued power gains.  Fortunately for me, they were in pursuit of larger goals, like the overthrow of Lunar occupation, rather than trying to just build up a Harrek killer PC as their objective.  So the campaign went smoothly for a very long time, initiate level, the first Rune Priest, then a Rune Lord, then a couple of Rune Lord/Priests and a shaman, but the players hit a wall where they just could not do the epic, heroic level feats that they wanted to do.  In RQ2 you generally only got to parry one or two guys, so five or six high level Initiates of Yanafal Tarnis, say 80% skill with two handed sword, and a willingness to burn one use truesword spells were a mortal threat even to a Rune level character.  If they got him isolated there often was 2-3 un parry-able attacks coming in.  And of course I always GM'd lunars as ultra sophisticated munchkin types, with maximum advantage taken from every possible rules angle, be it poison, acid, dedicated support casters (dispel that Shield spell!), robbing key items from players on the lam, whatever it took to get the win for the Empire. 

To beat that head on, the players needed to be something more.  This is tantalizingly always offered in glorantha role playing, but never actually covered in practice.   The mechanistic challenges of Apotheosis are obvious to anyone who has ever run a high level campaign, but well........it is the Hero Wars.  I generally had to make up my own rules mechanics as I went, but there is a clear need for a "next level" to aspire to.  And perhaps more importantly, difficulty, dangers, and guardians thereof.

Edited May 1, 2020 by Dissolv

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, GAZZA said:

Interesting stuff. I can honestly say I don't recognise most of the events @Eff has referred to above (so I will have to downgrade myself from "Gloranthan Novice" to "Who is this Glorantha guy anyway" status),

Thanks for the reminder that we ought to provide such backing material, ideally in an entertaining and easily accessible way. To me that list looked like a good selection of well known cases.

7 hours ago, GAZZA said:

but I especially like the whole "hey, if you saw Bob instead of Waha, you must not be very devoted to Waha".

Do not underestimate the gospel of Bob http://tangent128.name/depot/toys/freefall/freefall-flytable.html#3305

 

7 hours ago, GAZZA said:

In particular this means that essentially no existing god could defeat Nysalor/Gbaji or (in more modern times) Sedenya - Arkat couldn't have prevailed as "merely" an incarnation/descendent of Humakt, Argrath couldn't have prevailed as "merely" an incarnation of Orlanth. To quote Arrow: "I had to become someone else - I had to become something else". Which is very cool, and will have to be something I can figure out for my players to do themselves eventually.

One thing about these new gods that come breaking  the Compromise is that they may enter the world together with their antithesis. The Birth of the Red Goddess coincides with that of Sheng Seleris, the birth of Nysalor coincides with that of Arkat.

[Runeblogger]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

One thing about these new gods that come breaking  the Compromise is that they may enter the world together with their antithesis. The Birth of the Red Goddess coincides with that of Sheng Seleris, the birth of Nysalor coincides with that of Arkat.

I had imagined that the Red Goddess' trick was to be both alive and dead at the same time. But yeah, entering the world together with your antithesis also works.

[dumuzid]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The Birth of the Red Goddess coincides with that of Sheng Seleris, the birth of Nysalor coincides with that of Arkat.

Hmm.  If the Unity Council's project had followed the original plan and brought Argan Argar into Time,  instead of making the hard swerve towards Nysalor that broke the council, I wonder if that wouldn't have created a 'Solar destroyer,' a Pelorian or Pentan Arkat.  I also wonder if Only Old One withdrew his support from the project when he realized that repercussion, prompting the Broken Council to turn to Dara Happa to fill the elemental breach, rather than the inclusion of the Dara Happans prompting Only Old One's withdrawal.  He seems to have deliberately used this effect, of gods bringing their antithesis with them into Time, to wage the Machine War in the Second Age.  He gave the Zistorites the broken shell of the Pseudocosmic Egg that birthed Nysalor in exchange for some examples of their machinery, just enough for them to get their own God Project off the ground, and just enough for him and his allies to start learning how the Zistorites' mass-produced magic functioned.  The breach in the Compromise created by Zistor's accelerating construction allowed Only Old One to first bring his father back into the world to unite the Kethaelans against the Zistorites, even the perennially rebellious Gemborg dwarves and Arstolan elves, and later allowed the Unity Army to bring Orlanth to the field to smite the machine god directly.

[Lordabdul]

On 4/30/2020 at 9:53 PM, GAZZA said:

I can honestly say I don't recognise most of the events @Eff has referred to above (so I will have to downgrade myself from "Gloranthan Novice" to "Who is this Glorantha guy anyway" status), but I especially like the whole "hey, if you saw Bob instead of Waha, you must not be very devoted to Waha".

I only know about half of the events on that list, and I'm supposed to be the co-host of a Gloranthan podcast... Unless you've been gaming/reading about Glorantha for more than 10 years, it's expected to not know a whole bunch of stuff. So no need to feel to bad about it! (or maybe we can both feel inadequate together!).

On 5/1/2020 at 7:48 AM, Dissolv said:

This really hits the nail on the head for something missing in Glorantha gaming, and particularly Runequest.  It's clear that there are pathways to becoming much more than the rules will current allow.  It is also clear that pursuing these paths of power is a major tenant of (and probably reason for the terribleness of) the Hero Wars.  But there is nothing mechanically on how to actually get there.  It is 100% sorted out between the players and the Gamemaster. 

On the one hand, I'm not sure that apotheosis is really what you want in your game, because, however awesome it is, I imagine it ends the campaign (it's not like you can play as a God in Glorantha? What do you even do all day? Are there any days? Is it like being quarantined? Is Orlanth wearing sweat pants all the time? Anyway...).

On the other hand, you could possibly come up with mechanics for heroforming and other types of avatars and incarnations. I'm not sure how many games you can draw inspiration from, but one awesome one that I know of is Unknown Armies, where players can become Godwalkers for the Invisible Clergy's Archetypes of the World. The 3rd edition of the game has rules for becoming an increasingly better avatar of an Archetype, until you become its official Godwalker... but really, these rules look very similar to how the Runes already work. It's not quite spelled out in RQG, but if you act according to your God's personality and values, you will by definition improve in the Rune affinities of that God. As you approach 100% in the God's Runes, you probably start experiencing some seriously weird shit. Based on this, you can either narratively or mechanically figure out when the character can become a true avatar.

On 5/1/2020 at 1:03 PM, Joerg said:

Thanks for the reminder that we ought to provide such backing material, ideally in an entertaining and easily accessible way. To me that list looked like a good selection of well known cases.

If it's not mentioned in the RQG rulebook, or, maybe, RQG slipcase set, we can probably assume that a fair number of readers would not know about it, so adding references is always welcome in that case... we do want these forums to be friendly to people discovering Glorantha just now!

Edited May 3, 2020 by lordabdul

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

I'm not sure that apotheosis is really what you want in your game, because, however awesome it is, I imagine it ends the campaign

Yeah, apotheosis pretty much puts you outside the mortal world and into the Gods Realm, which means bound to the Great Compromise!  You've pretty much cast yourself in whatever form you're in for eternity at that point.

On 4/30/2020 at 7:41 AM, Eff said:

- Ezkankekko walking around and doing things. 

Note that the Only Old One could very well be a title for this Silver Age hero.  And his Palace of Black Glass is one of those places that's likely both in the mortal world and in the Godtime. 

On 4/30/2020 at 7:41 AM, Eff said:

- Belintar's deal where he uses a succession of mortals as his "horse" to act within Time.

But, his whole Tournament of Luck and Death happens in the other world - a magical, Godtime Holy Country. The participants suddenly find themselves there, so clearly they've shifted out of the mortal world as with any heroquest.  The one who returns has the "gift" of being Belintar (like being a shaman, but much much harder as now you're partially in the god plane).

On 4/30/2020 at 7:41 AM, Eff said:

Things that have been accused of violating the Compromise but which don't seem to have definitely provoked divine intervention:

- Nysalor's creation.

- Zistor's creation.

- Sedenya's creation.

Probably because the creation/birth of at least the latter two wasn't anything out of the norm, so didn't break the Compromise.

Nysalor was born from a pseudo-cosmic egg which existed in the real world. Therefore his birth might be considered "normal". On the other hand, it provoked the Sunstop which was almost a break with the Great Compromise, and required the visible appearance of the cosmic web to pull the Sun back onto its course.

On 4/30/2020 at 7:41 AM, Eff said:

- Tearing a hole in Glorantha so you can quickly zip from the bottom of the Underworld to a camp outside Torang (First Battle of Chaos)

There are quite a few holes to the Underworld. Also, since Chaos is part of the Great Compromise, and Chaos entered Glorantha through holes in the cosmos, it's one of those things the Red Goddess could exploit but still fall within the Compromise.

[soltakss]

10 hours ago, lordabdul said:

On 5/1/2020 at 5:53 AM, GAZZA said:

I can honestly say I don't recognise most of the events @Eff has referred to above (so I will have to downgrade myself from "Gloranthan Novice" to "Who is this Glorantha guy anyway" status), but I especially like the whole "hey, if you saw Bob instead of Waha, you must not be very devoted to Waha".

I only know about half of the events on that list, and I'm supposed to be the co-host of a Gloranthan podcast... Unless you've been gaming/reading about Glorantha for more than 10 years, it's expected to not know a whole bunch of stuff. So no need to feel to bad about it! (or maybe we can both feel inadequate together!).

I know all of them, but I've been around a while.

Really, it doesn't matter how little or how much you know about Glorantha, what matters is how much you enjoy it.

There are areas of Glorantha that I know little about and have no interest i, so can't be bothered to learn about.

There are other areas that I know a fair amount about.

However, do I use anything about the Four Arrows of Light in a RQ game? almost certainly not, except to refer to bits of it "Yeah, Yanafal Tarnils fought Humakt to a standstill, but only because the Young Elementals drew his bodyguard away and Yanafal Tarnils had all his boys with him".

[pachristian]

Well one, I think Prax is a special place, where gods can walk without breaking the compromise (too much). There is a whole game about it Nomad Gods. 

Two, Waha, like many of the Praxian gods seems to straddle the line between "powerful spirit" and "god". The butcher may have more free will than the top tier gods because of that status.

Three, as far as I can, tell the whole history of Glorantha is literally Orlanth preventing anyone from doing to him what he did to Yelm before time began. Waha and Pavis aren't a threat to Orlanth, or even related to a threat to Orlanth, so they're allowed some leeways on the rules.

[jajagappa]

15 minutes ago, pachristian said:

where gods can walk without breaking the compromise (too much). There is a whole game about it Nomad Gods

Except that the great gods (e.g. Storm Bull, Wakboth, Eiritha, Waha) do not appear in the game.  Those who do appear are the powerful spirits, particularly those who have physical manifestations in the mortal world such as Oakfed, Wild Hunter, or Mallia.  

18 minutes ago, pachristian said:

Orlanth preventing anyone from doing to him what he did to Yelm before time began

Yelm dies every day. More what Orlanth and the greater gods prevent is any change from what happened in the God Time.  Yelm cannot stop in the Sky and simply remain there.  Orlanth's winds cannot blow without end. Darkness cannot universally blanket the world endlessly. Etc.

20 minutes ago, pachristian said:

Waha and Pavis aren't a threat to Orlanth

It's not a matter of being a threat to Orlanth.  Waha taught men how to butcher animals so that the souls went to the land of the dead (and didn't stay to remain as undead). That still happens.  Pavis manifested the power to have many beings live in harmony in a city.  Happened in the God Time, can happen now.  Those things don't break the Compromise.

[jajagappa]

On 4/30/2020 at 5:35 AM, GAZZA said:

My understanding was that Waha was the bloke that taught Peaceful Cut and separated the men and the beasts, so it is surprising to me that he wasn't around in the God Time

As per Cults of Prax: "He was born at the end of the Gods War, after his father had slain the Devil and long after his mother was hidden beneath the earth. He emerged from the earth to look upon a world of darkness and lingering Chaos. People wandered through the blasted land, dazed and dying of stupidity."

This was part of the Silver Age before the Dawn. Still the God Time, just not during the Greater Darkness.

He also was not "created". He's the child of Storm Bull and Eiritha.

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by jajagappa

[Sir_Godspeed]

9 hours ago, pachristian said:

Two, Waha, like many of the Praxian gods seems to straddle the line between "powerful spirit" and "god". The butcher may have more free will than the top tier gods because of that status.

 

Arguably that's true for all gods, it's just a matter of how you approach them, and that varies by culture. This isn't spelt clearly out, though, but I think it's kinda implied.

[davecake]

Without getting into the big themes, if we take the version of Pavis presented in the HQ Pavis book Pavis: Gateway to Adventure as more or less current, he seems barely a god as it is understood, though a major hero.

- his one Rune magic is that of a standard City God, so effectively a major wyter for the city community. This has always been the case across editions. 

- most of his cults, quite interesting and varied, potential magical powers, are actually unusual EWF era sorcery that the cult retains knowledge of, but requires years of dedicated study to use, and few of them bother. 

- and they have a bunch of relationships with other cults/traditions, which is where most of the useful magic the cult actually uses comes from. 

- plus a few remnant artifacts and such from during the life of Pavis. 

So there isn't much to indicate that Pavis was much more than an EWF sorcerer and heroquester who became worshipped as a wyter. The main difference between him and, say, Hauberk Jon, a more conventional city wyter, is that Pavis was a more successful heroquester, passed on some of his knowledge in the form of unusual sorcery, and seems to have just transitioned to the hero plane somehow without actually dying as a form of limited immortality. 

[soltakss]

16 hours ago, jajagappa said:

16 hours ago, pachristian said:

where gods can walk without breaking the compromise (too much). There is a whole game about it Nomad Gods

Except that the great gods (e.g. Storm Bull, Wakboth, Eiritha, Waha) do not appear in the game.  Those who do appear are the powerful spirits, particularly those who have physical manifestations in the mortal world such as Oakfed, Wild Hunter, or Mallia.  

Also, the Compromise has already been broken at that point. Don't forget the section in King of Sartar where Voria appears in person. That can't happen if the Compromise is intact.

All the events of Nomad Gods and Dragon pass are, in my opinion, post-Compromise-breaking, inside the hero Wars.