Yelm, runes and spells and heroquests

[Akhôrahil]

On 4/22/2021 at 8:00 PM, None said:

I read the requirement under Yelm the Sun Horse as ' if you herd anything it may only be horses' not as 'you must herd and you may only herd horses).

Agree. I read ”must herd only horses” as ”cannot herd non-horses”, not ”must herd horses”. 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Shiningbrow]

10 hours ago, Richard S. said:

And there wouldn't be any Yelmic centaur lineages since all modern ones (except maybe Ironhoof) are descendants of EWF experiments. The original centaurs went extinct in the darkness.

 

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Plus there are quite a few descended from Malkion and his various wives in Old Seshnela, transformed by Luathan magic.

Sources!!! 

We needs sources for horses... )well, ok, half-horses)...

 

Of courses!

[None]

15 hours ago, Richard S. said:

And there wouldn't be any Yelmic centaur lineages since all modern ones (except maybe Ironhoof) are descendants of EWF experiments. The original centaurs went extinct in the darkness.

Actually, thinking about it a bit more. Even if we assume that the original centaurs really became extinct, which is hard to prove. There could always be some tiny cluster surviving somewhere. That doesn't mean not even one of these new centaurs wouldn't have the interest, or the means, to create a new Yelmic lineage.

They're still part horses ans even though they for some reason have a strong affinity thy still also have a strong affinity and a large portion of Glorantha's centaurs live right next to a people that worship Yelm as the Sun Horse.

 

9 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Agree. I read ”must herd only horses” as ”cannot herd non-horses”, not ”must herd horses”.

Yes. Although, as a GM I would probably care a lot about the reason as to why an initiate of the Sun Horse chose not to herd anything at all even if he could at that moment in his life herd horses. Even then there are probably at least a few reasons I would accept even for an initiate living inside the Grazelands.

[None]

Considering the lack of comments on the mater I'm just going to assume that there is no known reason as to why Ironhoof is descended of Orlanth or why some centaurs fare more closely tied to the rune instead of the outside from centaurs being part of real world Greek mythology.

----

Instead there are two questions that have been burning a hole in my head and I just have to ask. Especially the later as I find it both heretical and hilarious at the same time.

• First. Why is it only the rune that lives you the ability to fly? I can understand the idea with moving air but the rune is the sky rune I cant help but feel that you should be able to use it to at least float into the sky. I even distinctly remember there being a myth about Yelm doing just that ( or more precisely, floating away) when Ondra I believe tried to grab him.
   
• Second. Shouldn't there actually be Sartarites, as in Orlanthi/Theyalan Sartarites who are descended from Yelm and thus able to be initiated into Yelm?
  I mean. I doubt that Elmal/Yemalio suddenly bjust descended from the sky when he made friends with Orlanth and the just Orlanthi began to receive visions about how to worship him.
  
  I'm imagining that he arrived together with Pelorians that already worshipped him, and if so it is not impossible that at least some of them where descended from him. As Elmal/Yelmalio is just another name for Lightfore, who is as I understand it a son of Yelm that would mean that anyone descended from Elmal/Yelmalio is also descended from Yelm.

[Richard S.]

54 minutes ago, None said:

 

• First. Why is it only the rune that lives you the ability to fly? I can understand the idea with moving air but the rune is the sky rune I cant help but feel that you should be able to use it to at least float into the sky. I even distinctly remember there being a myth about Yelm doing just that ( or more precisely, floating away) when Ondra I believe tried to grab him.
   
• Second. Shouldn't there actually be Sartarites, as in Orlanthi/Theyalan Sartarites who are descended from Yelm and thus able to be initiated into Yelm?
  I mean. I doubt that Elmal/Yemalio suddenly bjust descended from the sky when he made friends with Orlanth and the just Orlanthi began to receive visions about how to worship him.
  
  I'm imagining that he arrived together with Pelorians that already worshipped him, and if so it is not impossible that at least some of them where descended from him. As Elmal/Yelmalio is just another name for Lightfore, who is as I understand it a son of Yelm that would mean that anyone descended from Elmal/Yelmalio is also descended from Yelm.

No clue on centaur stuff.

Fire/Sky could probably be used to let you levitate or similar, but flight generally is a thing of the middle Air since that's what you're moving through. In old HQ material I believe Air flight involved basically being carried by the wind, and you had to be constantly moving for it to work.

There are certainly non-Pelorians who're descended from Yelm, and honestly if the priests really wanted to it probably wouldn't be hard to "discover" a line of descent for any candidate. But the priests really like keeping the cult exclusive, and if Orlanthi did start to initiate to Yelm it'd lead to some serious friction, as shown by the "Monrogh incident". Also, it's easier to just join Yelmalio if you're Fire-souled but don't have an established Yelmic lineage, since the little sun doesn't care nearly as much about things like ancestry as long as you make a good soldier of the Light. I doubt he had kids in any case.

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, None said:

Considering the lack of comments on the mater I'm just going to assume that there is no known reason as to why Ironhoof is descended of Orlanth or why some centaurs fare more closely tied to the rune instead of the outside from centaurs being part of real world Greek mythology.

I didn't know that Ironhoof was descended from Orlanth.

Are some centaurs closely related to the Storm Rune or Fire Rune? They are closely associated with the Best Rune, of course.

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, None said:

First. Why is it only the rune that lives you the ability to fly? I can understand the idea with moving air but the rune is the sky rune I cant help but feel that you should be able to use it to at least float into the sky. I even distinctly remember there being a myth about Yelm doing just that ( or more precisely, floating away) when Ondra I believe tried to grab him.

Birds can fly, and are associated with Fire/Sky via Vrimak, so bird cultists might be able to fly.

1 hour ago, None said:

Second. Shouldn't there actually be Sartarites, as in Orlanthi/Theyalan Sartarites who are descended from Yelm and thus able to be initiated into Yelm?
I mean. I doubt that Elmal/Yemalio suddenly bjust descended from the sky when he made friends with Orlanth and the just Orlanthi began to receive visions about how to worship him.

They probably joined the True Golden Horde and perished in the Dragonkill.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, None said:

First. Why is it only the rune that lives you the ability to fly? I can understand the idea with moving air but the rune is the sky rune I cant help but feel that you should be able to use it to at least float into the sky. I even distinctly remember there being a myth about Yelm doing just that ( or more precisely, floating away) when Ondra I believe tried to grab him.

(just my opinion) because there was a time when there was no air between sky and earth.

Before Umath:

• ground floor and upper floors = sky . And if you want to go up, you have stairs
• basement = earth. Where you can store and hide anything

 

After Umath / Orlanth

• basement and ground floor = earth (Ernalda succeeds to obtain more than what was earth power before)
• something new, with new rules = air, able to maintain sky far from his wife dominion
• the upper floors = sky (Yelm is still emperor after all)

 

birds were already able to not use stairs to go up so they can fly.

Other gods are so "pure" they cannot learn a new power (and after all that would be ridiculous to try to ressemble these opportunists gods)

so they have to use "stairs" to go on earth (or fall) and back to the sky (or use the eagles, like Frodo)

In sun county we have an example of "stair" (Bunan puce to not spoil anything), but that could be materialized with other aspects (magical floating boat, bridge, river, ... )

 

1 hour ago, None said:

Second. Shouldn't there actually be Sartarites, as in Orlanthi/Theyalan Sartarites who are descended from Yelm and thus able to be initiated into Yelm?
I mean. I doubt that Elmal/Yemalio suddenly bjust descended from the sky when he made friends with Orlanth and the just Orlanthi began to receive visions about how to worship him.

why not, but few. I like @soltakss answer about it.

Another option is, if they are now sartarite, after so many generations, that means they are  (and more and more) "tainted" by air. They are not pure, so even if they descend from Yelm, that is a tenuous heirloom (and why not a "suprise" for a pc with high level in fire rune)

Edited April 14, 2022 by French Desperate WindChild

[David Scott]

On 12/24/2021 at 7:26 PM, None said:

Also, that Ironhoof is for some reason descended from Orlanth, a Storm god.

What is your reference for this. I can't find anything.

[None]

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

I didn't know that Ironhoof was descended from Orlanth.

57 minutes ago, David Scott said:

On 12/24/2021 at 8:26 PM, None said:

Also, that Ironhoof is for some reason descended from Orlanth, a Storm god.

What is your reference for this. I can't find anything.

The Smoking Ruins & Other Stories, page 31, under King Ironhoof:

Quote

Ironhoof is a son of Orlanth and Ner Jalari, Queen of the Centurs.

 

3 hours ago, Richard S. said:

There are certainly non-Pelorians who're descended from Yelm, and honestly if the priests really wanted to it probably wouldn't be hard to "discover" a line of descent for any candidate. But the priests really like keeping the cult exclusive

True, I'd doubt any established Yelm priests would want to just anyone to join the cult even if they technically could but that doesn't mean a new cult couldn't be established, and I'm sure even the most unwilling Yelm priest would be forced to accept you with enough magical proof on your side.

 

3 hours ago, Richard S. said:

and if Orlanthi did start to initiate to Yelm it'd lead to some serious friction, as shown by the "Monrogh incident".

Doesn't mean it can't happen, nor that it wouldn't be interesting. 😃 Personally I'd love the hilarity of discovering the awkward truth that a Prince of Sartar (or King of Dragon Pass) is descended from Sartar on his mother's side but is actually descended from Yelm on his father's side.

After that you just have to lean back and watch the political fallout if that ever became public knowledge. Or some other ambitious descendant of Sartar caught wind of it.

(Not to mention how weird and ridiculous it would be with someone descended from Orlanth and Yelm both. Although for all I know there could very well be a few of the Pure Horse people who are. Unless there are no human descendants of Orklanth left, I'm unsure about that despite finding it hard to believe.)

 

3 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Also, it's easier to just join Yelmalio if you're Fire-souled but don't have an established Yelmic lineage, since the little sun doesn't care nearly as much about things like ancestry as long as you make a good soldier of the Light. I doubt he had kids in any case.

See that is one of the issues here. Yelmalio might not have had any children but Elmal very well might have (and if you're a fan of Six Ages: Ride Like the Wind then he definitely had and was the patron god of a Dara Happan city meaning that that city's nobility should have been descended from him).

And depending on how you look at it even Yelmalio might have had children before the whole Hill of Gold incident.

 

3 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Fire/Sky could probably be used to let you levitate or similar, but flight generally is a thing of the middle Air since that's what you're moving through. In old HQ material I believe Air flight involved basically being carried by the wind, and you had to be constantly moving for it to work.

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

Birds can fly, and are associated with Fire/Sky via Vrimak, so bird cultists might be able to fly.

I didn't expect them to fly like the wind or even be that quick or manoeuvrable (unless they fly like birds) but I feel that flying or at least rising above the Earth (and potentially the Air) shouldn't be impossible.

 

Edit:

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

Are some centaurs closely related to the Storm Rune or Fire Rune? They are closely associated with the Best Rune, of course.

Strictly speaking the may be close to any Elemental rune and don't even have to have a high value in or but both of those are the most common

The only runes thy must have a high value in are and .

Edited April 14, 2022 by None

[Richard S.]

16 minutes ago, None said:

Doesn't mean it can't happen, nor that it wouldn't be interesting. 😃 Personally I'd love the hilarity of discovering the awkward truth that a Prince of Sartar (or King of Dragon Pass) is descended from Sartar on his mother's side but is actually descended from Yelm on his father's side.

After that you just have to lean back and watch the political fallout if that ever became public knowledge. Or some other ambitious descendant of Sartar caught wind of it.

(Not to mention how weird and ridiculous it would be with someone descended from Orlanth and Yelm both. Although for all I know there could very well be a few of the Pure Horse people who are. Unless there are no human descendants of Orklanth left, I'm unsure about that despite finding it hard to believe.)

How would the Prince of Sartar being descended from Yelm be some sort of scandal? That'd be like someone saying they're descended from Genghis Khan: kind of interesting, but ultimately not that impactful. It's been a few thousand years since Orlanth and Yelm started having kids, people who could trace their ancestry back to either or both probably aren't uncommon. Though most people don't keep track of their distant ancestors in the first place.

19 minutes ago, None said:

I didn't expect them to fly like the wind or even be that quick or manoeuvrable (unless they fly like birds) but I feel that flying or at least rising above the Earth (and potentially the Air) shouldn't be impossible.

If you feel it should be possible then go ahead and make a spell for it, nothing's stopping you. It might not be a power of any of the major solar gods as we know them, but ygmv.

[David Scott]

15 minutes ago, None said:

he Smoking Ruins & Other Stories, page 31, under King Ironhoof:

Quote

Ironhoof is a son of Orlanth and Ner Jalari, Queen of the Centurs.

Thanks. I'd forgotten about Ner-Jalari. Previously his father wasn't mentioned (Book of Heortling Mythology), but given he was King of Dragon Pass, and that title was bestowed by Kero Fin herself, it makes sense. 

[None]

54 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

How would the Prince of Sartar being descended from Yelm be some sort of scandal?

True. It doesn't necessarily have to be and how much of a scandal it'd be would depend upon how much it mattered to the people involved and how the reveal was spun.

Doesn't mean it couldn't be a scandal though and it does open up the slight possibility of said Prince of Sartar getting enamoured with Yelm and the Yelm cult and ultimately discarding Orlanth in favour of Yelm.

Unlikely? Well, depending on when you'd place it I'd say it could be possible, and as I said. With another ambitious descendant of Sartar that wants the position. Well, it doesn't even have to happen to become a thing.

Personally, I think that having a Prince of Sartar that is officially descended from Yelm would cause a stir, or at least be awkward, but maybe that's just me.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, None said:

Yelmalio might not have had any children but Elmal very well might have (and if you're a fan of Six Ages: Ride Like the Wind then he definitely had and was the patron god of a Dara Happan city meaning that that city's nobility should have been descended from him).

Except that city was crushed and destroyed by the Iron Ram.

1 hour ago, None said:

Yelmalio might have had children before the whole Hill of Gold incident

Yelmalio was born when Yelm died - he is one part of Yelm, but not all of Yelm (and not the fertile part).  While one could say he is "of" Yelm, no Yelmalions trace descent "from" Yelm.

[None]

18 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Yelmalio was born when Yelm died - he is one part of Yelm, but not all of Yelm (and not the fertile part).  While one could say he is "of" Yelm, no Yelmalions trace descent "from" Yelm.

Which I have to assume makes the relationship between Yelm and Lightfore? Or does it? On the other hand Elmal has been portrayed as a son of Yelm. Once again in Six Ages which I'd admit probably isn't considered canon but that still means there different interpretations.

Also:

18 hours ago, jajagappa said:

20 hours ago, None said:

Yelmalio might not have had any children but Elmal very well might have (and if you're a fan of Six Ages: Ride Like the Wind then he definitely had and was the patron god of a Dara Happan city meaning that that city's nobility should have been descended from him).

Except that city was crushed and destroyed by the Iron Ram.

Except that doesn't men its inhabitants managed to flee. That is pretty much the starting point of Six Ages. Elmal took the inhabitants of his city and left.

 

I guess the whole Elmal/Yelmalio thing needlessly complicated as no one can really agree what's what there.

Regardless, Orlanths habit of making friends with gods of other tribes and the Orlanthi custom of (occasionally) adopting foreign people into their clans means that there being at least a few people with surprise descent from Yelm among them should be all but guaranteed. Not that that means it'd be easy or possible to prove.

Tracing your descent back to Elmal's people would be much easier.

[French Desperate WindChild]

14 minutes ago, None said:

Which I have to assume makes the relationship between Yelm and Lightfore? Or does it? On the other hand Elmal has been portrayed as a son of Yelm.

from my perspective there is no issue here (note that I have changed my mind year after year to have this conclusion 😛 probably some chaosium illumination riddle)

 

what is a god's child?  a part of a god and a part of something else

"something else" could be a goddess / nymph / mortal / ... etc as our "standard" human children

or

"something else" could be a situation, an experience

Yelmalio is the part of Yelm still alive when Yelm is dead

Darkness is when Yelm is dead

Yelmalio is the part of Yelm and / in Darkness situation

Yelmalio is Yelm's son

 

of course not like our irl definition

for gods, that is only a semantic issue, nothing more

 

so yes Yelmalio is Yelm's son, when there is Yelm

and yes Yelmalio is a part of Yelm, when there is no Yelm

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, None said:

Which I have to assume makes the relationship between Yelm and Lightfore? Or does it? On the other hand Elmal has been portrayed as a son of Yelm. Once again in Six Ages which I'd admit probably isn't considered canon but that still means there different interpretations.

It doesn't matter... it's all mythology anyway, and that is very mutable and suffers from interpretation.

I'm quite sure someone could do a HQ and suddenly become a descendant.

[soltakss]

51 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'm quite sure someone could do a HQ and suddenly become a descendant.

One of the PCs in my Dorastor/Balazar Campaign did exactly that. He proved that he was a direct, male-line descendant of Balazar, then proved that Balazar was a Yelm cultist.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

One of the PCs in my Dorastor/Balazar Campaign did exactly that. He proved that he was a direct, male-line descendant of Balazar, then proved that Balazar was a Yelm cultist.

 

an interesting point. What was his arguments ? And to whom he put forward his argument ? (gods ? priests ?)

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, None said:

Which I have to assume makes the relationship between Yelm and Lightfore? Or does it? On the other hand Elmal has been portrayed as a son of Yelm.

Yelmalio = Lightfore = Elmal = Antirius = Kargzant

They are the same deity just seen from different perspectives.

6 hours ago, None said:

Except that doesn't men its inhabitants managed to flee. That is pretty much the starting point of Six Ages. Elmal took the inhabitants of his city and left.

I find it useful to keep in mind that between Six Ages and the Dawn, there is the Ice Age, the Greater Darkness, the triumph of Chaos, and eventually the Silver Age of the Jenarong riders.  Those inhabitants and their descendants died (at some point in that time).  Maybe a hard-scrabble family survived to preserve some legend of the lost "Eden", but that is all.

And subsequent rule by DH did not restore that.

[Squaredeal Sten]

None, my own take on the heroquest issue you raised is that in Glorantha we see at least two different pantheons with originally separate myths.  These are rubbing against each other as the believing populations make contact.  The friction is expressed in Time, that is in the current time for the players. 

ALL MYTHS ARE TRUE, even when they are contradictory.  

Attempting to unify and reconcile the myths is God Learner-ism.  Which we are told is both a path to power and potentially disastrous, disastrous on the principle that the pot that goes to the well often will end up broken.

So an individual hero quest affects the world very little.  When it is repeated it strengthens that particular mythological path, and it is only when repetition and quest benefits affect a significant share of the Gloranthan population that there will be an actual shift in the relative powers of the two pantheons and the losing population will begin to accept pieces of the mythology of the winning pantheon.  Presumably changes in POW sacrificed affect the relative powers of the gods involved.

As a corollary, if the Red Emperor or Jar-Eel or  Argrath do the quest they are in a position to affect much more of the population than when some obscure PC heroquests.  So that is much more likely to result is an imperial expansion, and / or a change like the Windstop,  while the obscure PC's quest will likely just add to the "secrets" of a particular clan.  

It is interesting that the Great Compromise means the gods won't take a direct hand in changing the world of Time, but it does not seem to restrict inhabitants of the world of Time from changing the gods.  Thus it is an unstable situation.  After the Hero Wars we will get a different world, but all the player characters will be long dead and it will only matter to Delecti.

Just my take on it, my interpretation of the available documents.

 

 

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
Plural vs singular

[soltakss]

7 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

8 hours ago, soltakss said:

One of the PCs in my Dorastor/Balazar Campaign did exactly that. He proved that he was a direct, male-line descendant of Balazar, then proved that Balazar was a Yelm cultist.

 

an interesting point. What was his arguments ? And to whom he put forward his argument ? (gods ? priests ?)

He used Firshala's ancestor spells to work back to Balazar, to prove that he was a direct male-line descendant of Balazar.

Then he used a HeroQuest to prove that Balazar did things that only a Yelm cultists could do, therefore Balazar was a Yelm Cultist. 

It was nearly 30 years ago, so I can't remember all the details.

I think he demonstrated it to the Red Emperor, who is the Great High Priest of Yelm, and he accepted the proof.

[French Desperate WindChild]

11 hours ago, soltakss said:

think he demonstrated it to the Red Emperor, who is the Great High Priest of Yelm, and he accepted the proof.

Thanks a lot 

I didn’t know if there was, in your glorantha (or canon) a kind of divine trial to demonstrate to the gods themselves or if it was a demonstration to mundane cults

[soltakss]

7 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I didn’t know if there was, in your glorantha (or canon) a kind of divine trial to demonstrate to the gods themselves or if it was a demonstration to mundane cults

It was effectively a divine trial, but was done in a mundane way in our game. I suppose it could have been done as part of the HeroQuest but the Player was not keen on HeroQuesting with the Red Emperor.

[JonL]

On 4/14/2022 at 2:11 AM, Richard S. said:

There are certainly non-Pelorians who're descended from Yelm, and honestly if the priests really wanted to it probably wouldn't be hard to "discover" a line of descent for any candidate. But the priests really like keeping the cult exclusive, and if Orlanthi did start to initiate to Yelm it'd lead to some serious friction, as shown by the "Monrogh incident". Also, it's easier to just join Yelmalio if you're Fire-souled but don't have an established Yelmic lineage, since the little sun doesn't care nearly as much about things like ancestry as long as you make a good soldier of the Light. I doubt he had kids in any case.

I'll note that any descendant of a King of Dragon Pass and a Feathered Horse Queen has Yelmic lineage through the latter.