Yelm, runes and spells and heroquests

[Shiningbrow]

Are there any areas where the Sun (Yelm, ostensibly) is a goddess? And thus, all the gender roles reversed.

[Joerg]

16 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Are there any areas where the Sun (Yelm, ostensibly) is a goddess? And thus, all the gender roles reversed.

Old Peloria had the White Goddess(es) who were the sun empress(es), before Brightface's usurpation. Glorious ReAscent of Yelm (in-world document written in the middle of the Dawn Age) mentions Sedenya as a false, phasing sun goddess.

Prax has a sun daughter, but that's not quite replacing Yelm (replacing Lightfore, though).

The Yellow Elf dryads might worship Yelm as a nymph of light and fire. Not very likely, considering the Amazons of Trowjang and their male celestial deity.

[Qizilbashwoman]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Old Peloria had the White Goddess(es) who were the sun empress(es), before Brightface's usurpation. Glorious ReAscent of Yelm (in-world document written in the middle of the Dawn Age) mentions Sedenya as a false, phasing sun goddess.

Prax has a sun daughter, but that's not quite replacing Yelm (replacing Lightfore, though).

The Yellow Elf dryads might worship Yelm as a nymph of light and fire. Not very likely, considering the Amazons of Trowjang and their male celestial deity.

Also Ourania is in the Entekosiad in TALES OF PELANDA as Fer Na ("One Two"), the prime mover.

[None]

On 4/16/2021 at 11:32 PM, Qizilbashwoman said:

But the narrative of Yelm comes from the Sunstop that caused the birth of Osentalka. The old solar beliefs of Genertela ended with the Sunstop. After it, there was just Yelm.

Care to expand on that?

 

------

On 4/17/2021 at 1:16 AM, jajagappa said:

They are rare, and usually are some transitional state between elements.

The River Styx would be one:  Darkness and Water.

Annilla, the Blue Moon that commands that tides, I believe has three:  Moon, Darkness, and Water.

Caladra & Aurelion would be another: Earth and Heat.

Some of the Lunar goddesses would have Moon and Earth.

Thinking about this makes me remember something about burning water elementals, as in elementals litterally made ut of water that burns and is aflame like fire but is still water.

[Qizilbashwoman]

6 minutes ago, None said:

Care to expand on that?

There were many Solar narratives before the Sunstop in 375. This event resolved these into a single narrative; we still know the old stories, but they are not interactable as Heroquests. They aren't true anymore. Now we know Yelm is Yelm and He was slain by a Storm God, and so forth. Other stories don't exist, only that one. They were deleted by the disaster of the Broken Council and Osentalka's birth when the world choked on its own spit for a minute.

[None]

5 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

There were many Solar narratives before the Sunstop in 375. This event resolved these into a single narrative; we still know the old stories, but they are not interactable as Heroquests. They aren't true anymore. Now we know Yelm is Yelm and He was slain by a Storm God, and so forth. Other stories don't exist, only that one. They were deleted by the disaster of the Broken Council and Osentalka's birth when the world choked on its own spit for a minute.

That's , rather unusual for Glorantha.

Edit:

Actually this makes me think about something.

Considering how Nysalor and Lokomayadon were suddenly, and very conveniently, 'revealed' to be Chaos Gods as they ended up the losers of their respective conflicts.

Are there some way for the winners of a conflict to force the losers to retroctively become Chaos mosters?

Edited April 18, 2021 by None

[Joerg]

6 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

There were many Solar narratives before the Sunstop in 375. This event resolved these into a single narrative; we still know the old stories, but they are not interactable as Heroquests. They aren't true anymore.

I wouldn't go that far. The Sunstop is the result of some of the strongest magics within Time, but it doesn't prevent a heroquester to find weird fragments of former sun gods and to bring thosee back as subcults or hero cults. Creating one of those old sun gods again to rival Yelm in recognition would require a similarly strong world-wide event, such as the rising of the Red Moon which established the Red Emperor.

 

6 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Now we know Yelm is Yelm and He was slain by a Storm God, and so forth. Other stories don't exist, only that one.

We still have Somash and Maluraya, the Vithelan Viceroy of the Sun (or whatever his title)which have hardly any knowledge about the killing of their deity even though they (or at least the Kralori) know about the Sunstop. Their emperor Govmeranen was not a sun god, and has not become one. Kralori emperor Heen Maround appears to have abdicated or ascended, passing the office on to Metsyla. The Doraddi myth about Varama being the reborn Kendamalar and Kendamalar abandoning his post in the sky to join his brothers in fighting a new enemy god (entering the Necklace of Pamalt) doesn't have any Orlanth, either. Instead, another (lesser?) form of Varama fell some time later, during the Artmali period (the Pamaltelans suffered from a Moon Age rather than a Storm Age).

And Lunar mysteries as taught by Jar-eel (Prince of Sartar) are quite clear about several rebel gods terminating Yelm Brighteye and his emperor, Orlanth being just one of them, alongside Verithurusa (Sedenya), Tolat (Shargash), and Artia (the Bat). None of the other rebels lent a hand in bringing the sun back, though.

 

6 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

They were deleted by the disaster of the Broken Council and Osentalka's birth when the world choked on its own spit for a minute.

The records are divided about how long the Sunstop lasted. For some observers it was just a second, in other places an entire generation may have enjoyed this return to the Golden Age slowly blackening. The other celestial mechanics may have stopped during the Sunstop, too, and possibly the tides as well.

[Eff]

7 hours ago, None said:

That's , rather unusual for Glorantha.

Edit:

Actually this makes me think about something.

Considering how Nysalor and Lokomayadon were suddenly, and very conveniently, 'revealed' to be Chaos Gods as they ended up the losers of their respective conflicts.

Are there some way for the winners of a conflict to force the losers to retroctively become Chaos mosters?

Well, Arkat's duel with Nysalor seems to have been very profoundly affecting, since he came out of it no longer an Uz except, perhaps, in body. There have been suggestions that the "he" that came out of it might not have been the Arkat that went in, whether Nysalor switched bodies with the Destroyer and came out humbled and appreciative of the Dark, or whether the two pieces of Osentalka coming into contact with one another caused them to exchange pieces (through violence) until there was one Osentalka and one Gbaji, facing each other, and then Osentalka tore apart Gbaji and emerged diminished, Arkat the Liberated, no longer the Liberator.

But in general terms, everything* has Chaos within it, and many things are Chaotic in some fashion, and if they are carried to a feverish enough pitch, then of course you can point to the Chaos implicit in your foe's Devilish actions and watch in glee as their face explodes into gorp. Assuming, of course, that Gbaji the Deceiver isn't so strong in them as to deceive them even when confronted with irrefutable truth.

*More than the Orlanthi "all" of 6/7ths- I would say 99 and 44/100ths percent of Glorantha has Chaos inside of it.

[Dragon]

8 hours ago, None said:

Thinking about this makes me remember something about burning water elementals, as in elementals litterally made ut of water that burns and is aflame like fire but is still water.

Tanian summoned by the God Learners against the Waertagi? Tanian's Grotto from The Puzzle Canal perhaps?

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

alongside Verithurusa (Sedenya), Tolat (Shargash), and Artia (the Bat). None of the other rebels lent a hand in bringing the sun back, though.

One might argue that Shargash broke the entire world so that everything died and came to Yelm.  And once Yelm reasserted order and justice, he sent Shargash back out to start reassembling everything, paving the way for Yelm's return into the Sky.  It would not surprise me to find this as the Alkothi (or perhaps even the Tripolis/DH) viewpoint before the Lightbringer missionaries reached DH.

 

[None]

2 hours ago, Eff said:

But in general terms, everything* has Chaos within it, and many things are Chaotic in some fashion, and if they are carried to a feverish enough pitch, then of course you can point to the Chaos implicit in your foe's Devilish actions and watch in glee as their face explodes into gorp.

Which as I understand it essentially means the winner can, with enough of a win and enough power, force the loser into llways heving been a Chaos God or Chaos monster. That puts a whole newspin onto the winer writing history.

1 hour ago, Dragon said:

Tanian summoned by the God Learners against the Waertagi? Tanian's Grotto from The Puzzle Canal perhaps?

I don't know as the name doesn't ring any bells. All I know is that they where theorised by Western Sorcerers who did so by begining in one end of their theory chain and then worked their way forward untill they got the desired result.

57 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

One might argue that Shargash broke the entire world so that everything died and came to Yelm.  And once Yelm reasserted order and justice, he sent Shargash back out to start reassembling everything, paving the way for Yelm's return into the Sky.  It would not surprise me to find this as the Alkothi (or perhaps even the Tripolis/DH) viewpoint before the Lightbringer missionaries reached DH.

Which means it could still be their viewpoint. I somehow don't think the typical Dara Happan puts much stock into Lightbringer claims.

Although it puts the whole thing with Buserain and Lhankor Mhy being the same god into an interesting position. I guess the Dara Happan Buserian cult would never accept the Idea that their god buddied up with Orlanth.

[Eff]

30 minutes ago, None said:

Which as I understand it essentially means the winner can, with enough of a win and enough power, force the loser into llways heving been a Chaos God or Chaos monster. That puts a whole newspin onto the winer writing history.

I don't know as the name doesn't ring any bells. All I know is that they where theorised by Western Sorcerers who did so by begining in one end of their theory chain and then worked their way forward untill they got the desired result.

Which means it could still be their viewpoint. I somehow don't think the typical Dara Happan puts much stock into Lightbringer claims.

Although it puts the whole thing with Buserain and Lhankor Mhy being the same god into an interesting position. I guess the Dara Happan Buserian cult would never accept the Idea that their god buddied up with Orlanth.

Note that the monomythic form of the Lightbringer's Quest heavily implies Issaries, Chalana, and Lhankor are independent from Orlanth and only joined for their own reasons. Other Orlanthi myths make them important parts of the Storm Tribe, but the sign of unity makes these near-universal gods detached from all that, neutral parties. There may be some sublimated politics there. 

[None]

10 minutes ago, Eff said:

Note that the monomythic form of the Lightbringer's Quest heavily implies Issaries, Chalana, and Lhankor are independent from Orlanth and only joined for their own reasons

Ah, right. Chalana Arroy is also supposed to be a solar goddes under a diferent name isn't she?

No idea where Issaries comes from.

[Eff]

6 minutes ago, None said:

Ah, right. Chalana Arroy is also supposed to be a solar goddes under a diferent name isn't she?

No idea where Issaries comes from.

Yeah. The "White Lady" title is applied to a goddess named "Erissa" in some sources on Peloria. And the elves have (masculine) Arroin, usually explained as a son of Chalana. The Malkioni have the Ascended Master "Xemela" as their healer, and like many, I suspect you pronounce that "che-mela". Compassion goes around the world. 

[None]

Just now, Eff said:

Yeah. The "White Lady" title is applied to a goddess named "Erissa" in some sources on Peloria. And the elves have (masculine) Arroin, usually explained as a son of Chalana. The Malkioni have the Ascended Master "Xemela" as their healer, and like many, I suspect you pronounce that "che-mela". Compassion goes around the world. 

It does make sense that she would, one way or another, heal all without reservation.

[Akhôrahil]

11 hours ago, None said:

Considering how Nysalor and Lokomayadon were suddenly, and very conveniently, 'revealed' to be Chaos Gods as they ended up the losers of their respective conflicts.

Is Loko Moko depicted as Chaotic and not merely as bad news?

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, None said:

No idea where Issaries comes from.

Based on the Revealed Mythologies work, the implication is that Issaries is from the west (and same for Lhankor Mhy, though from different backgrounds IIRC).

[None]

10 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Is Loko Moko depicted as Chaotic and not merely as bad news?

I think he was revealed to be a Chaos God to show how bad its to try and replace Orlanth.

[None]

I've been thinkning aboutthis a while but the rules are a but vuage on the matter.

Is a Yelmic Sun Lord that advances to the Elder subcult still a Rune Lord ? Or does he quit being that as he becomes a Rune Priest and and leaves the Sun Lord subcult?

 

Then there are shamans.

The Golden Bow subcult (of Yelm the Sun Horse). The rules state that any Initiate who has become a shaman qualifies for this subcult. So far so good. Except. Does this meran the Archer subcult specifically or any subcult except the Youth (which is effectively being a Lay Member as I understand it)?

The rule of the Yelm cult that you can only be in one subcult at the time makes things even more complicated as it is unclear wether you can go from Golen Bow to Sun Lord or not.

The Sun Lord subcult states you need to have been a member of the Archer subcult in good standing for five years but there is nothing that states that you have to be in said subcult right now. It is also unclear if you can be a shman and initiated into Yelm the Sun Horse without becoming a Golden Bow.

The only thinng that seem clear is that you cannot be a Golden Bow and  a Sun Lord or Elder at the same time but it is also unclear if you can stop being a Golden Bow as you cannot stop being a shaman.

 

On top of all of that. while there are no explicit rules against being a shamana and a rune anything at the same time it seems to be really rare?

 

So, uh. Help?

I think I've thought myself  into a needlesly complicated labyrinth here but its all also really unclear.

I could even (maybe) make an argument that the Golden Bow doen't really count as a subcult the way Youth, Archer, Sun Lord and Elder does.

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, None said:

I've been thinkning aboutthis a while but the rules are a but vuage on the matter.

Is a Yelmic Sun Lord that advances to the Elder subcult still a Rune Lord ? Or does he quit being that as he becomes a Rune Priest and and leaves the Sun Lord subcult?

 

Then there are shamans.

The Golden Bow subcult (of Yelm the Sun Horse). The rules state that any Initiate who has become a shaman qualifies for this subcult. So far so good. Except. Does this meran the Archer subcult specifically or any subcult except the Youth (which is effectively being a Lay Member as I understand it)?

The rule of the Yelm cult that you can only be in one subcult at the time makes things even more complicated as it is unclear wether you can go from Golen Bow to Sun Lord or not.

The Sun Lord subcult states you need to have been a member of the Archer subcult in good standing for five years but there is nothing that states that you have to be in said subcult right now. It is also unclear if you can be a shman and initiated into Yelm the Sun Horse without becoming a Golden Bow.

The only thinng that seem clear is that you cannot be a Golden Bow and  a Sun Lord or Elder at the same time but it is also unclear if you can stop being a Golden Bow as you cannot stop being a shaman.

 

On top of all of that. while there are no explicit rules against being a shamana and a rune anything at the same time it seems to be really rare?

 

So, uh. Help?

I think I've thought myself  into a needlesly complicated labyrinth here but its all also really unclear.

I could even (maybe) make an argument that the Golden Bow doen't really count as a subcult the way Youth, Archer, Sun Lord and Elder does.

I consider there are two ways (in grazer community):

shaman path:

lay member (youth) then initiate (archer) then shaman (goldenbow)

priest path (in fact not shaman path ) :

lay member (youth) then initiate (archer) then rune lord (sun lord) then priest (elder)

 

==> priest business is incompatible with shaman business (in yelm aspect)

shaman discuss with the spirits, when priest "discuss" with the god

 

note: that is only my point of view

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, None said:

Is a Yelmic Sun Lord that advances to the Elder subcult still a Rune Lord ? Or does he quit being that as he becomes a Rune Priest and and leaves the Sun Lord subcult?

They are still Rune Lords if they maintain their status, so Rune Lord-Priests of the Elder subcult or just priests.

Quote

Then there are shamans.

The Golden Bow subcult (of Yelm the Sun Horse). The rules state that any Initiate who has become a shaman qualifies for this subcult.

So far so good. Except. Does this meran the Archer subcult specifically or any subcult except the Youth (which is effectively being a Lay Member as I understand it)?

You's need to be an assistant shaman first, so you'd join this subcult to do so to gain access to Discorporation. So a lay member could do so. (from upcoming GoG)

Quote

The rule of the Yelm cult that you can only be in one subcult at the time makes things even more complicated as it is unclear wether you can go from Golen Bow to Sun Lord or not.

Sun Lords, priests, rulers can't be shaman (or sorcerers)

Quote

The Sun Lord subcult states you need to have been a member of the Archer subcult in good standing for five years but there is nothing that states that you have to be in said subcult right now.

If you aren't in the archer subcult, which one are you in?

Quote

It is also unclear if you can be a shman and initiated into Yelm the Sun Horse without becoming a Golden Bow.

Yelm lay members pay a point of POW to do so, but receive no magic. To become a shaman of Yelm you need to be at least a lay members, so you are effectively initiated by joining Golden Bow as an assistant. see:

Quote

On top of all of that. while there are no explicit rules against being a shamana and a rune anything at the same time it seems to be really rare?

See above.

The Yelm cult is complex and all the details will be in GoG

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by David Scott

[None]

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

They are still Rune Lords if they maintain their status, so Rune Lord-Priests of the Elder subcult or just priests.

Ah, I thought the status of Rune Lord and Rune Priest was intimately tied to each corresponding subcult. If there's nothing stopping an Elder to remain a Rune Lord though that changes things a bit.

Of course that raises the question what happens if you are and Elder somehow stop being a Rune Lord against your will (I'm not sure if that's even possble but you could lose your qualifiqations) and then want to become a Rune Lord again. A rarer senario but it is only a matter of time bofer it comes up somewhere.

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

If you aren't in the archer subcult, which one are you in?

Golden Bow? There is nothing in the core books rules that explicitly forbits you from going from Golden Bow to Sun Lord as the Sun Lord subcult only requires that you've been a memberin good standing of the Archer subcult for five years. After that there is nothing saying that you can't just move on to Golden Bow and still qualify for Sun Lord.

Or at least that was the interpretation I made from reading the cult description for Yelm the Sun Horse. If Sun Lord's simply aren't allowed to be shamans then the only way is direcly from the Archer subcult.

The way I understand this is:

• You can, as long as you're the assistant of a shaman, go from the Youth or the Archer into Golden Bow (which gives you everything that Archer has in case you're going from Youth) and after than a Golden Bow you will remain.
  
  (You could possibly become a Rune Lord or Priest in an Associated cult if you wanted to do something really wierd but that might be more in the line of abusing the game system. Of course, if there is a rule somewhere that I've missed that states that shamans can never be Rune Lords or Rune Priests unless otherwhise noted regardles of cult then this small aside becomes nothing more than idle musings.)

Or

• You can go from Youth, to Archer, to Sun Lord, to Elder, and once you've become a Sun Lord you cannot become a shaman.

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

The Yelm cult is complex

I've notices. It's not like Orlanths 'Eh, just join wathever, it's fine' attitude to subcults.

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

all the details will be in GoG

That's good.

Edited April 22, 2021 by None

[davecake]

On 4/18/2021 at 11:10 PM, Eff said:

Well, Arkat's duel with Nysalor seems to have been very profoundly affecting, since he came out of it no longer an Uz except, perhaps, in body.

Arkat was, according to the Xeotam Dialogues, a kaelith - a person who had become a type of god, by their soul battling its way out of the underworld (in his, probably referring to his rescue from the Underworld by Lightbringer Quest). The typical abilities of such a being include being able to change his physical form, and also be a formless spirit. The rebirth as a troll was necessary to give him a trollish soul. I strongly suspect Arkat was able to change back and forth between his trollish and human forms all along (which the Kitori do as well) , and felt less desire to be a troll (a war form for him) afterwards, and wanted to return to an earlier, more peaceful, phase of life. He didn't forget his trollish friends, though, of course. 

[Eff]

13 minutes ago, davecake said:

Arkat was, according to the Xeotam Dialogues, a kaelith - a person who had become a type of god, by their soul battling its way out of the underworld (in his, probably referring to his rescue from the Underworld by Lightbringer Quest). The typical abilities of such a being include being able to change his physical form, and also be a formless spirit. The rebirth as a troll was necessary to give him a trollish soul. I strongly suspect Arkat was able to change back and forth between his trollish and human forms all along (which the Kitori do as well) , and felt less desire to be a troll (a war form for him) afterwards, and wanted to return to an earlier, more peaceful, phase of life. He didn't forget his trollish friends, though, of course. 

Well, in this case it seems to be changing back and forth between souls or selves (there'd be less debate if there was a dramatic change in body away from Uzness). Hardly unheard of, but interesting that the previous Arkat selves don't seem to manifest under the Autarchy, and all that's present is Arkat Cincinnatus the retiree. 

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, None said:

Golden Bow? There is nothing in the core books rules that explicitly forbits you from going from Golden Bow to Sun Lord as the Sun Lord subcult only requires that you've been a member in good standing of the Archer subcult for five years. After that there is nothing saying that you can't just move on to Golden Bow and still qualify for Sun Lord.

There is no system in the core rules to allow career changes. 

1 hour ago, None said:

Or at least that was the interpretation I made from reading the cult description for Yelm the Sun Horse. If Sun Lord's simply aren't allowed to be shamans then the only way is direcly from the Archer subcult.

The way I understand this is:

• You can, as long as you're the assistant of a shaman, go from the Youth or the Archer into Golden Bow (which gives you everything that Archer has in case you're going from Youth) and after than a Golden Bow you will remain.

 

You would start as an assistant shaman in the Golden Bow subcult. The core rules don't allow occupation changes. As an assistant shaman wouldn't be able to fulfil "Members must ride and herd only horses and may not practice agriculture." They can't be herders. 

1 hour ago, None said:

• 
  (You could possibly become a Rune Lord or Priest in an Associated cult if you wanted to do something really wierd but that might be more in the line of abusing the game system. Of course, if there is a rule somewhere that I've missed that states that shamans can never be Rune Lords or Rune Priests unless otherwhise noted regardles of cult then this small aside becomes nothing more than idle musings.)

Once you're a shaman can you never be Rune Lord or Rune Priest, as to stop being a shaman you would have to loose your fetch and die.

1 hour ago, None said:

Or

• You can go from Youth, to Archer, to Sun Lord, to Elder, and once you've become a Sun Lord you cannot become a shaman.

Players are likely to follow Archer to Sun Lord or Elder. They cannot be shaman (or sorcerers).

The shaman path and the rune path are separate.