Dark Walk

[Darius West]

20 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

It works differently in-world, in that it is distraction-based rather than light bending or transparency. This happens to have the same consequence as many other systems, but for in-world reasons rather than "game balance" reasons.

Does this matter when we don't have hard and fast rules about what this "invisibility" actually entails when it comes to guards etc trying to detect the invisible person, either actively or passively?

20 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

 It also works differently to Dark Walk, which IS a visual effect rather than mental. It therefore follows that Dark Walk does NOT have this flaw of becoming visible when attacking, but I agree that it should be made more clear since it's a common assumption to make. 

Firstly you have missed the fact that Darkwalk actually also has an audio-dampening effect, as otherwise it couldn't affect trolls and their darksight.  That's an important omission.

Secondly, Darkwalk now provides (a) complete invisibility in the dark (b) complete silence in the dark, and (c) no visibility when attacking.

All this for a 1pt Rune Spell?

Compare this to the utter lack of value Invisibility the 3pt Rune spell provides by comparison. 

The fact is, the Invisibility Rune Spell is merely the 2pt Spirit Magic spell turned into a rune spell because it was seen to be OP, but now it has been nerfed beyond reason, while Darkwalk has become unreasonably powerful by comparison apparently.

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Does this matter when we don't have hard and fast rules about what this "invisibility" actually entails when it comes to guards etc trying to detect the invisible person, either actively or passively?

The spell distracts anyone from seeing the caster. It will still set off warding or Market spells, detect life will detect the caster. Clear Sight (Sun Hawk, Dayzatar) specificall overcomes it. It doesn't make the caster silent, and the spell description even gives a modifier. This alone would allow a move silently vs listen roll. Not sure what more you need.

Given Invisibility is limited to a tiny number of cults with specific roles, it's going to be a rarity: Annilla, Black Fang brotherhood Initiates (Pavis), Cacodemon priests, Crimson Bat initiates, Eurmal Thief (Kethaela, Tanisor, Ralios, Enkloso, and the East Isles only), Raven (Prax).

[Lordabdul]

6 hours ago, David Scott said:

It doesn't make the caster silent, and the spell description even gives a modifier. This alone would allow a move silently vs listen roll. Not sure what more you need.

I may be wrong but I assumed Darius was actually pointing out that the 3-pt spell has indeed these rules and limitations that can make the invisible person detectable, whereas the 1-pt spell doesn't. Whether the 1-pt spell's limitation of "only works in shadows" is important or anecdotal is up to the GM I suppose. For instance, do people interpret it as "no direct light, only indirect at most"? Can someone use Dark Walk to become invisible while standing under a tree in the middle of a bright and sunny summer day? I assume so...

 

6 hours ago, David Scott said:

Eurmal Thief (Kethaela, Tanisor, Ralios, Enkloso, and the East Isles only)

Err what? Why the geographical limitation? Eurmal Thief gets Invisibility in the rulebook without any caveat.

By the way, on a purely mythological level, I find it sad that it's more expensive for a trickster god to sneak around, than it is for the big loud show-off god of thunder. What's the story behind Orlanth getting Dark Walk? If I was bothered with changing all this (which I probably am not) I would give Dark Walk only to Argan Argar, lower Invisibility to 1 or 2 points, and give Orlanth some other sneak spell at 2 or 3 points.

Edited March 17, 2022 by lordabdul

[French Desperate WindChild]

For me the Shadow requirement is easy :

is there any penalty when a human character uses a search / see skill ?

yes ? It is shadow

No ? It is not shadow

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

Err what? Why the geographical limitation? Eurmal Thief gets Invisibility in the rulebook without any caveat.

That's where that subcult is found. Lots of subcults have geographic limitations.

Eurmal can also get Invisibility as an associate of Raven, so a quick trip to Prax is also possible.

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

By the way, on a purely mythological level, I find it sad that it's more expensive for a trickster god to sneak around, than it is for the big loud show-off god of thunder. What's the story behind Orlanth getting Dark Walk? If I was bothered with changing all this (which I probably am not) I would give Dark Walk only to Argan Argar, lower Invisibility to 1 or 2 points, and give Orlanth some other sneak spell at 2 or 3 points.

Dark Walk is Rune spell given from the Sandals of Darkness, Magical Weapon subcult of Orlanth (there are four of these subcults). Orlanth stole the Sandals of Darkness from Kyger Litor herself in the Great Darkness (which is why most trolls don't have this spell). Previously in my games, if players want any of the magical weapons they have to earn the right to have them. The previously mentioned Orlanth rune lord earned it on a raid deep into the troll lands of the Rubble. Under RQG, we've At the gamemaster’s discretion, an initiate can gain access to the cult’s special Rune spells in return for exceptional service to the cult, by donating the equivalent of 100 L per point of the spell, or for other reasons that further the cult’s goals and standing. So like all adventurers, it's never just pay and you have it, you have to work for it.

Edited March 17, 2022 by David Scott

[Rodney Dangerduck]

22 minutes ago, David Scott said:

At the gamemaster’s discretion, an initiate can gain access to the cult’s special Rune spells in return for exceptional service to the cult, by donating the equivalent of 100 L per point of the spell, or for other reasons that further the cult’s goals and standing. So like all adventurers, it's never just pay and you have it, you have to work for it.

Dark Walk isn't noted as a "special" Rune spell, just as a rune spell available to Orlanth Adventurous, along with Flight, Lightning, Shield, etc...  Are you saying that PCs need to do exceptional service to get Shield?  Without exceptional service, they only get access to the Common rune spells?  The pregen PCs have the "special" spells.

 

[dumuzid]

12 hours ago, Darius West said:

All this for a 1pt Rune Spell?

counter with the 1pt common rune spell Soul Sight, available to just about everyone at initiate level.

edit: if memory serves, according to the old Greg story "I Hate Trolls," using the equivalent sorcerous effect, Pierce Veil, is the standard Brithini Horali answer to fighting trolls cloaked with Darkness magic.

Edited March 17, 2022 by dumuzid

[g33k]

I just can't get too worked up over the "awesomeness" of Dark Walk rune-magic when ordinary non-magical light can dispel it...

It's awesome... until it's not; and that "not" is just so, SO easy to achieve.

 

[dumuzid]

10 minutes ago, g33k said:

I just can't get too worked up over the "awesomeness" of Dark Walk rune-magic when ordinary non-magical light can dispel it...

Granted, I can say from experience that Dark Walkers working in conjunction with Storm and Sky cultists to manage the light environment of the battlefield to their mutual benefit is extremely effective, but that gets into a whole other level of magical interactivity.

The early armies of the Unity Council fought like that, after the pattern of the Kimantorings of Nochet, and it must've been something beautiful...

[Rodney Dangerduck]

3 hours ago, g33k said:

I just can't get too worked up over the "awesomeness" of Dark Walk rune-magic when ordinary non-magical light can dispel it...

It's awesome... until it's not; and that "not" is just so, SO easy to achieve.

 

Minor correction: light (or Light) does not dispel Darkwalk.  Just makes it ineffective until the sneak runs off into the shadows.

How the sentries know to cast Light (or Soul Sight, if that works, I'm not sure it does) at the proper moment is an interesting question.  If the sentry is just walking around with a torch, the sneak presumably has some chance to notice and try to move away...

[Akhôrahil]

Dark Walk is fantastic - yes, it’s conditional, but those are conditions that obtain at least half the time (more, really - shadows aren’t exactly a rarity), and when they do, it’s cheaper and better than Invisibility. 

[JustAnotherVingan]

3 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Dark Walk is fantastic - yes, it’s conditional, but those are conditions that obtain at least half the time (more, really - shadows aren’t exactly a rarity), and when they do, it’s cheaper and better than Invisibility. 

Shadows are also limited. In the example lordabdul gave hiding in the shadow of a tree in daylight as soon as the character moves they'd be visible.

To maintain invisibility during combat using darkwalk would require darkness, not just shadow. A fighter couldn't manouvere to fight and ensure they stayed in shadow.  

[Akhôrahil]

6 hours ago, lordabdul said:

By the way, on a purely mythological level, I find it sad that it's more expensive for a trickster god to sneak around, than it is for the big loud show-off god of thunder. What's the story behind Orlanth getting Dark Walk?

Orlanth Adventurous can be pretty sneaky. Dark Walk is The Sandals of Darkness, specifically obtained (i.e. stolen) by Orlanth as Desemborth, Orlanth the Thief.

[Akhôrahil]

20 minutes ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

To maintain invisibility during combat using darkwalk would require darkness, not just shadow. A fighter couldn't manouvere to fight and ensure they stayed in shadow.  

Depends - it could be a large shadow. And ranged combat should be little problem even with limited shadows.

It would make sense to pack Extinguish for nighttime fights.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Shiningbrow]

8 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Can someone use Dark Walk to become invisible while standing under a tree in the middle of a bright and sunny summer day? I assume so...

Unlikely... Unless it's a very leafy tree and there's no wind at all. (With the irony being, in casting the Darkwalk, part of the manifestation of Orlanth would be an accompanying breeze).

[g33k]

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Minor correction: light (or Light) does not dispel Darkwalk.  Just makes it ineffective until the sneak runs off into the shadows.

How the sentries know to cast Light (or Soul Sight, if that works, I'm not sure it does) at the proper moment is an interesting question.  If the sentry is just walking around with a torch, the sneak presumably has some chance to notice and try to move away...

Just ordinary torches & lanterns (around doors, lining critical passages, etc) can be huge for resisting a Dark Walker trying to get in where they aren't supposed to...

Wandering patrols are a different matter, obviously!
 

Edited March 18, 2022 by g33k

[g33k]

Trees can cast a distinct & clear shadow.  A literal reading of the RAW seems to suggest that suffices for Dark Walk!  I guess one needs a ruling on "dappled" shade -- is any ray of sunshine, however small, sufficient to remove the invisibility; even if the Dark Walker is over 90% covered in shadow, just a few square inches of sunlight on them?

And while they can't leave the shadow of the tree, they have a commanding melee advantage beneath it... *AND* it's an amazing position for an archer (arrows from a tree, nobody visible, obviously an Elf hiding in the foliage!).

***

I quite like the ruling from @French Desperate WindChild-- if there's enough shadow that perception/vision rolls (or archery attacks, etc) would take a penalty (even a paltry 5%), then Dark Walk applies.  If the shadows aren't deep enough for that, they aren't deep enough to Dark Walk in.

Edited March 18, 2022 by g33k

[soltakss]

15 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I may be wrong but I assumed Darius was actually pointing out that the 3-pt spell has indeed these rules and limitations that can make the invisible person detectable, whereas the 1-pt spell doesn't. Whether the 1-pt spell's limitation of "only works in shadows" is important or anecdotal is up to the GM I suppose. For instance, do people interpret it as "no direct light, only indirect at most"? Can someone use Dark Walk to become invisible while standing under a tree in the middle of a bright and sunny summer day? I assume so...

The 3t spell works in daylight, the 1pt spell doesn't.

The 3t spell works in torchlight, the 1pt spell doesn't.

The 3t spell works in sunbright, the 1pt spell doesn't.

Dark Walk has a set of limitations built into it.

However, Dark Walk is great against Trolls, as they normally have little light and no light-causing spells. In fact, I can already hear Yelmalians claiming that Yelmalio should have Dark Walk, as the cult fights trolls.

[David Scott]

14 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Dark Walk isn't noted as a "special" Rune spell, just as a rune spell available to Orlanth Adventurous, along with Flight, Lightning, Shield, etc... 

There's three types of Rune spells; Common, Special and Associate (which are also Special).

14 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Are you saying that PCs need to do exceptional service to get Shield?  Without exceptional service, they only get access to the Common rune spells? 

If they want it after character creation - yes in my game. I always work this in as it integrates the adventurer in with their temple.

14 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

The pregen PCs have the "special" spells.

Yes, selected at character generation.

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

However, Dark Walk is great against Trolls, as they normally have little light and no light-causing spells. In fact, I can already hear Yelmalians claiming that Yelmalio should have Dark Walk, as the cult fights trolls.

only bad Yelmalians then

 

Yelmalio would never accept to hide and ambush any ennemy. He is a light, proud, honorable, courageous, resistant war god (and for some... weak)

 

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

However, Dark Walk is great against Trolls, as they normally have little light and no light-causing spells. In fact, I can already hear Yelmalians claiming that Yelmalio should have Dark Walk, as the cult fights trolls.

Then he should be sensible and do what every other god does, and steal it from someone!

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

In fact, I can already hear Yelmalians claiming that Yelmalio should have Dark Walk, as the cult fights trolls.

They could, if they exchange their armor for Orlanth's footwear at the Hill of Gold. Just a minor tweak of that quest, not as big as getting Fire powers, or the vaunted indestructability of the true masters of that quest.

 

Edit: and yes, like in the Morokanth thumb quest, that Orlanthi would lose his ability to use Darkwalk.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Joerg

[JRE]

Forget Orlanth. The combo is for Argan Argar, who also has Create Shadow, which indicates that one point, that only creates a haze in sunlight, is enough to cast Dark Walk. 

So you create an area where you are invisible and silent , and light will not reveal you. No need to use extinguish. In sunlight the dark area will be evident, but with less light it may be very difficult to notice.

It highlights the usefulness of magic perception and Dispel / Dismiss Magic in defence. Or the defensive value of a shaman. 

As for the Yelmalion in The Hill of Gold, IMG it would need an opposing orlanthi with Sandals of Darkness, and the Orlanthi would lose the ability to use Dark Walk. No free lunches...

[dumuzid]

2 hours ago, JRE said:

Forget Orlanth. The combo is for Argan Argar, who also has Create Shadow, which indicates that one point, that only creates a haze in sunlight, is enough to cast Dark Walk.

I did something like this for a whole battlefield once by having the storm worshipers on our side call cloudbanks to create huge swathes of shadow.  Argan Argar is always strongest when he's working together with his friends.

[Lordabdul]

19 hours ago, soltakss said:

Dark Walk has a set of limitations built into it.

I am well aware of those limitations. But it doesn't necessary follow that these limitations are worth being 2 points cheaper than Invisibility's limitations. It's a subjective value, possibly derived from the following:

23 hours ago, g33k said:

Trees can cast a distinct & clear shadow.  A literal reading of the RAW seems to suggest that suffices for Dark Walk!

Exactly. I think Dark Walk's worth can vary quite a lot between two GMs based on how they handle it... and that's why I asked about the tree's shadow case. I guess it's the same with, say, whether trollkin would be affected by sunlight if they stand under the same tree.