Dark Walk

[Ryan Kent]

Does the Dark Walk rune spell allow you to retain invisibility and still engage in melee?

[AndrewTBP]

The 3-point Invisibility doesn't so I don't think the 1-point Dark Walk does. I would use the same second paragraph as Invisibility. 

[Scotty]

4 hours ago, Ryan Kent said:

Does the Dark Walk rune spell allow you to retain invisibility and still engage in melee?

Yes, as long as the caster remains in the dark or shadow.

There are some answers in the Dark Walk Q&A you may find helpful.

48 minutes ago, AndrewTBP said:

The 3-point Invisibility doesn't so I don't think the 1-point Dark Walk does. I would use the same second paragraph as Invisibility. 

Invisibility works a different way -  by attracting attention elsewhere.

[Darius West]

I agree with Andrew TBP, that Darkwalk should lapse at the start of an attack, as this has always been a long standing convention across RPGs.

That being said, the Darkwalk (RQG p325) spell write-up doesn't explicitly say as much, and that is a problem.

So what would the spell be like if invisibility didn't lapse?  Well, it provides complete invisibility, but only in conditions of darkness.  Arguably this means you can hide in shadows very well, because even I become "invisible" in darkness and I don't claim any magical powers.  On the other hand Darkwalk doesn't confer the ability to see in the dark, and that's a problem if you want to move through it, let alone fight in dark conditions.  Rules regarding Darkness are on p153-4 of RQG.

I think it is easiest to regard Darkwalk as an invisibility spell that requires shadows to operate, that will lend the caster invisibility if they are in darkened areas for 15min. The effects of the invisibility rune spell are on p333, and a 1pt Rune Spell shouldn't be more powerful than a 3pt Rune Spell.  I think you can slip from dark area to dark area without the spell lapsing (apart from when you are in the light), but if you attack, the spell lapses imo. At least that is what I would let my players get away with...

Edited March 13, 2022 by Darius West

[David Scott]

53 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I agree with Andrew TBP, that Darkwalk should lapse at the start of an attack, as this has always been a long standing convention across RPGs.

Just because other RPGs have this as a convention, doesn't mean that all RPGs should follow it. Invisibility in RQ works differently.

53 minutes ago, Darius West said:

That being said, the Darkwalk (RQG p325) spell write-up doesn't explicitly say as much, and that is a problem.

Why is it a problem?

53 minutes ago, Darius West said:

So what would the spell be like if invisibility didn't lapse?

Invisibility has a different mechanism, the description clearly says This spell makes the target invisible by diverting attention from the target to a spot other than where the spell target is. 

53 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Well, it provides complete invisibility, but only in conditions of darkness.  Arguably this means you can hide in shadows very well, because even I become "invisible" in darkness and I don't claim any magical powers.  On the other hand Darkwalk doesn't confer the ability to see in the dark, and that's a problem if you want to move through it, let alone fight in dark conditions.  Rules regarding Darkness are on p153-4 of RQG.

Dark Wall is only available to three cults, Argan Argan, his mother Xentha as an associate and Orlanth in the Sandals of Darkness subcult. Trolls should have no problem moving and fighting with this, but humans will have. Orlanth Adventurous members should be prepared when using this, its best use is clearly against trolls though as you are invisible to their Darksense (they are at -75% to attack as well as you in pitch black). The Sandals of Darkness are clearly a sneaking around in shadows rune spell for Orlanth Adventurous.

I've had players in my game use it for recon at night stacked with Extension, or in one case use it for a burglary at Raus's house in Pavis...

53 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I think it is easiest to regard Darkwalk as an invisibility spell that requires shadows to operate, that will lend the caster invisibility if they are in darkened areas for 15min. The effects of the invisibility rune spell are on p333, and a 1pt Rune Spell shouldn't be more powerful than a 3pt Rune Spell.  I think you can slip from dark area to dark area without the spell lapsing (apart from when you are in the light), but if you attack, the spell lapses imo. At least that is what I would let my players get away with...

YGWV

How have others had it used in their games?

[svensson]

If you remain in shadow, 'blend-in is total' [quoting the spell definition].

The reason why Dark Walk is a cheaper Rune Point cost is the requirement to stay in darkness. Sometimes that's easy, sometimes that's hard.

Invisibility lets you stay invisible in all lighting conditions.

Edited March 13, 2022 by svensson

[svensson]

So two follow questions then...

Does Invisibility effect those species that don't use vision for their primary sense? Uz and Dwarfs mostly, but Aldryami might also apply.

And if not, are there spells that will defeat Darksense /Earthsense/ Elfsense?

I'm a long time grognard and I don't know any, but that doesn't mean there isn't any.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

And if not, are there spells that will defeat Darksense /Earthsense/ Elfsense?

Dark Walk defeats Darksense / Earthsense per RBM

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Dark Wall is only available to three cults, Argan Argan, his mother Xentha as an associate and Orlanth in the Sandals of Darkness subcult. Trolls should have no problem moving and fighting with this, but humans will have. Orlanth Adventurous members should be prepared when using this, its best use is clearly against trolls though as you are invisible to their Darksense (they are at -75% to attack as well as you in pitch black).

Orlanth is probably the most popular PC cult.  So lots of players will have this spell, and, at 1 Rune Point, it's easy to cast.

The spell does not require pitch black.  It requires "darkness and shadow".  (Arguably, that "and" should really be an "or").  Now, maybe I'm misinterpreting that requirement, but a dimly lit corridor or cavern applies.  Most any "dungeon crawl".  Conditions where no GM would penalize a PC by -75%.

When your PCs burglarized Raus's house in Pavis, did you give them a huge penalty to all skills for being in pitch dark?  

[Jeff]

10 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Orlanth is probably the most popular PC cult.  So lots of players will have this spell, and, at 1 Rune Point, it's easy to cast.

The spell does not require pitch black.  It requires "darkness and shadow".  (Arguably, that "and" should really be an "or").  Now, maybe I'm misinterpreting that requirement, but a dimly lit corridor or cavern applies.  Most any "dungeon crawl".  Conditions where no GM would penalize a PC by -75%.

When your PCs burglarized Raus's house in Pavis, did you give them a huge penalty to all skills for being in pitch dark?  

If you as a GM are worried about the players abusing this, then just have the Light spell readily available. 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

9 minutes ago, Jeff said:

If you as a GM are worried about the players abusing this, then just have the Light spell readily available. 

Very good point.  Unless the opposition are trolls who don't have Light.

Seriously, I'm very interested in this question because, in about 3 hours, my PC with Darkwalk and Catseye will be fighting trolls in a poorly lit cavern.  I'm hoping that the other PCs don't cast their one remaining SunBright, or that the trolls quickly dismiss it.  The PCs probably think otherwise.  🙂

[Dissolv]

This was a big part of my Orlanthi Runelord player's game in my Eleven Lights RQG campaign that was run over covid lockdown.  The big thing that we quickly realized is that almost no one goes outside at night without a light source, or stands around on guard duty at night without a light source nearby.  Typically this is just a fire pit type thing, but Darkwalk is both amazingly powerful and amazingly fragile.  Any light magic just blows it away, and I ruled that even a torch (in the very small radius) would remove the shadow, at least from a human sized area.

This still allowed the spell to be amazing (Orlanthi rebels ruled the night!), but also short lived.  This worked out well for everybody, and there were no arguments or disappointments, so I think it was a great tool for RP and tactical purposes, while also not allowing an "Improved Invisibility" type slaughter with a game mechanics set that really (and realistically) punishes fighters that cannot see the opponent.

Sophisticated opponents tended to have light spells, Trolls have Darksense and other means to detect things in shadows (plus they greatly respect the warrior that attacks from the shadows), but even the lowest caliber humans will use fire at night, or at least retreat inside a domicile at night. 

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

When your PCs burglarized Raus's house in Pavis, did you give them a huge penalty to all skills for being in pitch dark?  

It was a single well prepared Rune Lord with specialist equipment, no penalty required. Dark Walk was specifically used for evading the Pavis night watch when it all went wrong. See Pavis: Threshold To Danger. @Jeff said Light spells are a good guard against Dark Walk, but the Pavis night watch don't use that spell... (also in RQ2 it was stackable to 2 points for double duration).

[Runeblogger]

5 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Very good point.  Unless the opposition are trolls who don't have Light.

Seriously, I'm very interested in this question because, in about 3 hours, my PC with Darkwalk and Catseye will be fighting trolls in a poorly lit cavern.  I'm hoping that the other PCs don't cast their one remaining SunBright, or that the trolls quickly dismiss it.  The PCs probably think otherwise.  🙂

How did it go? 🙂
I was going to suggest the trolls ought to Extinguish all light sources, then Catseye is no use, and all non-uz are suddenly completely blind.  😉

[Rodney Dangerduck]

4 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

How did it go? 🙂
I was going to suggest the trolls ought to Extinguish all light sources, then Catseye is no use, and all non-uz are suddenly completely blind.  😉

I cleverly snuck up on the toughest Dark Troll, made a dishonorable sneak attack, and rolled a 00.  We then fought indecisively for around 10 rounds, he finally turning invisible and fleeing once his maul was broken.

 

[Glyph]

17 hours ago, David Scott said:

Dark Walk defeats Darksense / Earthsense per RBM

RBM states Dark Walk defeats Darskee, not Darksense, it's no help in sneaking up on Trolls (I'm sure I remember a quote somewhere along the lines you may cast the spell, but I am of the dark, born and bred to it..)

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Glyph said:

RBM states Dark Walk defeats Darskee, not Darksense, it's no help in sneaking up on Trolls (I'm sure I remember a quote somewhere along the lines you may cast the spell, but I am of the dark, born and bred to it..)

Thanks for spotting that, it's in the Dark Walk Q&A which has also been updated, so Dark Walk defeats both Darksee and Darksense.

Edited March 14, 2022 by David Scott

[Lordabdul]

It makes me a bit sad to see such a powerful 1-pt Rune Spell which, to add insult to injury, can now even best the trolls in their home turf... but hey, it's what it is, Orlanth is the best, blah blah (and don't forget Argan Argar can also get that spell). I want to point out that Light spells might be good, but you don't need magic to make light -- guards and the places they guard will have torches and such that the adventurer will have to avoid. It might include a hefty bonus to Move Quietly, but they still need to roll IMHO. It's probably a bit easier by day, since no torches are lit (except the occasional religious fire) and the adventurer only has to run from shadow to shadow... so an even bigger bonus to Move Quietly, and an almost guaranteed chance of sneak attack. But after that, Orlanth being not only the best but also the most famous, guards might immediately light things up since the Dark Walk magic is probably well known... along with its limitations.

Edited March 14, 2022 by lordabdul

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

It makes me a bit sad to see such a powerful 1-pt Rune Spell which, to add insult to injury, can now even best the trolls in their home turf... but hey, it's what it is, Orlanth is the best

I completely agree.  I know the Game Designers could care less about game balance, but this "Storm Tribe has all the coolest stuff" is extremely tiresome.  Lie, Sword Trance, Darkwalk and Thunderbolt are completely broken OP spells.  And I'm running the Vingan who used the Darkwalk!

Can't wait for the Gods book to see if the Trolls, Solars, and Lunars get any cool stuff to counter.

[soltakss]

21 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Can't wait for the Gods book to see if the Trolls, Solars, and Lunars get any cool stuff to counter.

Sunbright is good against Darkwalk.

Seriously, most of the spells in the Red Book of Magic don't come from Storm Tribe cults.

[jajagappa]

On 3/14/2022 at 5:22 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Can't wait for the Gods book to see if the Trolls, Solars, and Lunars get any cool stuff to counter.

They are all in Red Book of Magic, so you can explore it there even if you don't necessarily know who the spells come from.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

BTW, I will become our GM in a few months, so if there are any, er, "interesting" spells from RBoM that I have overlooked, and should be considered for use by the opposition, please let me know.  Not sure if this should be a new topic or not - we're getting away from Darkwalk.

Thanks!

[Darius West]

On 3/14/2022 at 12:39 AM, David Scott said:

Just because other RPGs have this as a convention, doesn't mean that all RPGs should follow it. Invisibility in RQ works differently.

Does it though?  The 3pt Invisibility spell comes down when you attack. That's pretty stock-standard.  If you want non-Standard invisibility rules, Ars Magica 5th edition has rules for fighting while invisible.

On 3/14/2022 at 12:39 AM, David Scott said:

Why is it a problem?

Obviously it is a problem because while the spell says that the character becomes invisible, it doesn't offer any qualifiers about what sort of effect this involves.  Anyone standing in the dark is invisible, or at least hard to see.  Is that really a 1pt Rune Spell?  I think spell write-ups of this sort need to discuss what sort of penalties they apply to opponents or benefits they add to the user. 

On 3/14/2022 at 12:39 AM, David Scott said:

Invisibility has a different mechanism, the description clearly says This spell makes the target invisible by diverting attention from the target to a spot other than where the spell target is. 

So how is anyone supposed to impute that when the Darkwalk write up is so bare bones?  We are told that Darkwalk provides invisibility, but apparently not the same as the other Invisibility rune spell, but in fact we have no other reference to call upon as to how invisibility works, and nothing to point us to relevant rules we should be employing if invisibility the 3pt spell is not the model we should use.  Remember there is presently no Invisibility spirit spell in RQG.

On 3/14/2022 at 12:39 AM, David Scott said:

 Orlanth Adventurous members should be prepared when using this, its best use is clearly against trolls though as you are invisible to their Darksense (they are at -75% to attack as well as you in pitch black). The Sandals of Darkness are clearly a sneaking around in shadows rune spell for Orlanth Adventurous.

 Where does it say that Darkwalk defeats Darksense?  How would new players know that Darksense relies of echo location and therefore the sound dampening applies? I mean, I know that due to past editions and myths, but how would they? And more importantly, why is a 1pt Rune Spell (Darkwalk) so much better than a 3pt Rune Spell (Invisibility)?

Stealth in Combat rules in RQG seem to need a bit of discussion imo, not the least being in the case of how different spells work, if only for some clarity.  I am surprised that the Combat rules overlooked this, given that ambushes and infiltration are so important in RPGs.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Darius West

[PhilHibbs]

On 3/13/2022 at 1:39 PM, David Scott said:

Just because other RPGs have this as a convention, doesn't mean that all RPGs should follow it. Invisibility in RQ works differently.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Does it though?  The 3pt Invisibility spell comes down when you attack. That's pretty stock-standard.  If you want non-Standard invisibility rules, Ars Magica 5th edition has rules for fighting while invisible.

It works differently in-world, in that it is distraction-based rather than light bending or transparency. This happens to have the same consequence as many other systems, but for in-world reasons rather than "game balance" reasons. It also works differently to Dark Walk, which IS a visual effect rather than mental. It therefore follows that Dark Walk does NOT have this flaw of becoming visible when attacking, but I agree that it should be made more clear since it's a common assumption to make. It's what is called an "un-rule", a rule that people assume is there but actually there is no basis for in the text.

[dumuzid]

I would argue that the trade-off for Dark Walk remaining consistent through attacks is that, since it's a visual effect rather than a form of magical misdirection like Invisibility, it can be thwarted by anything that lets a character 'see' other than light: a shaman's Spirit Sight, or the Soul Sight rune spell, would seem to counter the protection offered by Dark Walk and Chameleon pretty effectively, while Invisibility would function unimpeded, with its normal limitations.