A question about Babeester Gor

[Agentorange]

reading in the rules Babs is described as earths holy avenger, the righter of wrongs, punisher of violators and wrong doers etc etc.

but I also read ( can't remember where ) about her slaughtering a whole valley of healers.....

which seems kind of contradictory given her alleged cosmic role ........

So what's the story ?

[g33k]

19 minutes ago, Agentorange said:

reading in the rules Babs is described as earths holy avenger, the righter of wrongs, punisher of violators and wrong doers etc etc.

but I also read ( can't remember where ) about her slaughtering a whole valley of healers.....

which seems kind of contradictory given her alleged cosmic role ........

So what's the story ?

IIRC -- in the old-timey source material, Babeester Gor did a berzerker / bloodfrenzy slaughter.
Like you, I find that antithetical to her essential identity -- IMG it didn't happen.

It just doesn't fit with having been birthed directly by the goddess as a protector.

[Qizilbashwoman]

16 minutes ago, g33k said:

IIRC -- in the old-timey source material, Babeester Gor did a berzerker / bloodfrenzy slaughter.
Like you, I find that antithetical to her essential identity -- IMG it didn't happen.

It just doesn't fit with having been birthed directly by the goddess as a protector.

this is inspired by the story of Sekhmet

[mfbrandi]

30 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

this is inspired by the story of Sekhmet

Quote

In a myth about the end of Ra's rule on the earth, Ra sends the goddess Hathor, in the form of Sekhmet, to destroy mortals who conspired against him. In the myth, Sekhmet's blood-lust was not quenched at the end of battle that led to her destroying almost all of humanity. To stop her Ra poured out beer dyed with red ochre or hematite so that it resembled blood. Mistaking the beer for blood, she became so drunk that she gave up the slaughter and returned peacefully to Ra. — Wikipedia

And it fits right in with Glorantha, where berserkers like Storm Bull and Zorak Zoran are supposed to be defending us from something worse than them (if you can imagine such). If we are going to have gods like that, do we want them all to be “boys”? Sure “women as demons” is a trope that might smack us in the face, but beats the hell out of squishy “bounteous” earth mothers, no? 😉

[Nozbat]

42 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

earth mothers

Earth Mothers have their dark sides and blood lust in all mythology... usually the sacrifice of the Year King to fructify the harvest (Just the way it should be)

[Rodney Dangerduck]

It is intriguing that a Storm Bull can be calmed out of their Berserk rage by a Chalana Arroy, but a Babeester Gor in her berserk rage cannot be calmed by a CA, Ernaldan, or similar.

[Nozbat]

3 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

It is intriguing that a Storm Bull can be calmed out of their Berserk rage by a Chalana Arroy, but a Babeester Gor in her berserk rage cannot be calmed by a CA, Ernaldan, or similar.

Righteous Anger rather than testosterone-driven machismo ?

[svensson]

BG is the protector and avenger of all the Earth goddesses, the aspect of Feminine Vengeance.

She is the Fierce Protector, the Bloody Avenger, the Stalwart Guard, the Constant Threat. She protects all aspects of the Earth from violation from any source, and when Earth is violated or disrespected, there is no place in all the Planes that she will not go to gain the justice of Vengeance.

Among the mortals of the Mundane Plane, she is the dark, bloody counterpoint of the windy heroes of Orlanth/Vinga or the pale, cold virgins of Yelorna, and the reminder that 'honor' is not always kept with noble and proud deeds worthy of fame -- that oftentimes honor is also served by grim, bloody work done in the dark.

Edited March 10, 2023 by svensson

[Agentorange]

30 minutes ago, svensson said:

BG is the protector and avenger of all the Earth goddesses, the aspect of Feminine Vengeance.

She is the Fierce Protector, the Bloody Avenger, the Stalwart Guard, the Constant Threat. She protects all aspects of the Earth from violation from any source, and when Earth is violated or disrespected, there is no place in all the Planes that she will not go to gain the justice of Vengeance.

Among the mortals of the Mundane Plane, she is the dark, bloody counterpoint of the windy heroes of Orlanth/Vinga and the pale, cold virgins of Yelorna, and the reminder that 'honor' is not always kept with noble and proud deeds worthy of fame -- that oftentimes honor is also served by grim, bloody work done in the dark.

Yeah, but how and why does slaughtering a valley full of healers fit in with all that ?

[metcalph]

1 minute ago, Agentorange said:

Yeah, but how and why does slaughtering a valley full of healers fit in with all that ?

Perhaps the healers broke a taboo.  If they were operating within an earth temple and had to spill some blood for medical purposes then that could be sufficient to st Babeester Gor off.  After all, Taboos are absolute and claiming lack of intent is generally insufficient as an excuse.

[jajagappa]

4 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Perhaps the healers broke a taboo.

Maybe they healed/restored/resurrected someone who had Offended the Earth and that Babeester was oathbound to kill and had properly slain. Thus, though the healers met their obligation, it restored someone evil who should properly be dead and chained in Hell. When the healers tried to keep Babeester from slaying the foe again and fulfilling her oath, she was forced to kill the healers too.

[Erol of Backford]

47 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Maybe they healed/restored/resurrected someone who had Offended the Earth and that Babeester was oathbound to kill and had properly slain.

Maybe if they had destroyed their head there would have been no need to kill them a 2nd time? Maybe they should punish themselves for not doing the job right to begin with.

[John Biles]

The point of the healer slaughter is that Eurmal saves some of the healers by turning the blood of the dead into beer and getting BG drunk to the point of collapse.

 

[EricW]

1 hour ago, John Biles said:

The point of the healer slaughter is that Eurmal saves some of the healers by turning the blood of the dead into beer and getting BG drunk to the point of collapse.

 

Yep - Eurmal the peacemaker :-). Isn’t there also a bab geas always kill seducer? Tells us all we need to know about the next morning 🙂

[svensson]

5 hours ago, Agentorange said:

Yeah, but how and why does slaughtering a valley full of healers fit in with all that ?

Well, not everything about the Earth is bountiful, beneficial, and fertile. Sometimes the Earth must be renewed in blood. This belief was held as true and sacred from ancient Mesopotamia all the way up until 1800's in Europe, and is still held to be true by covens of Wicca and Pagan/Heathen alt-religion advocates today. It was even passively permitted by the Catholic church in that most village-level priests would turn a blind eye to solstice and equinox ceremonies held out in the fields and woods.

For a real-world example, did you know that some of best and worst soil in France is along the trench lines of WWI? Some areas are MORE fertile and verdant than they were before the war because of the, well, 'nutrients' of millions of dead men and animals. But some regions are still poisoned by the peroxide and ammonia propellants used by artillery shells... not gas shelling, but the explosives used to make standard artillery shells. And that hasn't 'washed away' in 100 years.

Given Greg's inspirations for Glorantha, it's clear that that custom is a truism in Glorantha as well.

I don't know the specific instance where BG worshipers 'massacred a valley full of healers', so I can't comment directly to your question. But there are good 'Stafford-logic' reasons both for and against it happening.

[Martin Dick]

Chalana Arroy isn't part of the Earth Pantheon and Babeester Gor is not a Lightbringer, so if a few healers are collateral damage, it's far less worrying for a Babeester Gor than most other Sartarites. And so what if they are banned from Chalana Arroy's healing, they probably would rather have their Mother do the healing anyway. Besides, berserkers aren't particular known for their selective application of force, so even members of Associate let alone Friendly cults may be attacked.

 

[Agentorange]

2 hours ago, svensson said:

I don't know the specific instance where BG worshipers 'massacred a valley full of healers', so I can't comment directly to your question. But there are good 'Stafford-logic' reasons both for and against it happening.

For the life of me i can't remember where i read it now - maybe something out of print and non canonical ? I have seen it quoted/ referenced here a couple of times. I'll see if i can track down those references, maybe that'll give me the source.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Agentorange

[mfbrandi]

10 hours ago, Agentorange said:

Yeah, but how and why does slaughtering a valley full of healers fit in with all that ?

Isn’t the simplest answer that it doesn’t? BG’s blood lust was up and the slaughter doesn’t have to be rational or justifiable — and it wasn’t.

Whatever one may think of honour being “served by grim, bloody work done in the dark”, this just isn’t an example of that.

[soltakss]

16 hours ago, Agentorange said:

reading in the rules Babs is described as earths holy avenger, the righter of wrongs, punisher of violators and wrong doers etc etc.

but I also read ( can't remember where ) about her slaughtering a whole valley of healers.....

which seems kind of contradictory given her alleged cosmic role ........

So what's the story ?

Myths can be contradictory.

I can't remember the details of the myth, but I think that she was all worked up in her battle frenzy, came upon the Valley of Healers and just kept chopping. Eurmal had to turn the blood into beer to get her drunk, which stopped the frenzy.

It was one of those things where she regretted what had happened. I would guess that her cult has a prohibition of cult members performing the HeroQuest, unless they face off against enemy healers. However, I don't know who such healers might be. Some cultists would still perform the HeroQuest and damn the consequences.

 

[g33k]

21 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

this is inspired by the story of Sekhmet

Oh yeah; that and the beer.
Give Babs the Lion/Cow schtick and she'd almost be Sekhmet.

 

[g33k]

13 hours ago, svensson said:

...

I don't know the specific instance where BG worshipers 'massacred a valley full of healers', so I can't comment directly to your question. But there are good 'Stafford-logic' reasons both for and against it happening.

I don't know the oldest or original sources... I don't know WHY she did it.  But the  Sartar Companion  says (in the context of BG being merciless/violent/etc):

Quote

Once she slew so many defenseless residents of Healing Valley that she waded breast-deep in the gore, drinking the blood of victory and slaughter. Eurmal saved some of the healers when he turned the blood to beer, which Babeester Gor drank to blissful oblivion.

 

Edited March 10, 2023 by g33k

[svensson]

I think it's safe to assume that not everyone in Healer Valley was a healer by religion or trade [CA cultists or physicians], but it is a brutal act.

I don't know why BG is supposed to have done this, but it does fit with the early portrayal of her being an Earth cultist's Zorak Zoran /Storm Bull archetype of a berzerking avenger.

[DrGoth]

In Storm Tribe (yes, I know, not canon anymore) she is referred to as the "Goddess of Revenge and Terror". Not just Revenge. Her depiction there is far darker than the RQ3 Gods of Glorantha, where she is simply the "Holy Avenger". In Storm Tribe there are ritual markings described for everything up to annihilation of an entire clan. So, depending on when that Healing Valley reference was first conceived, it could fit.  In many ways I find the Storm Tribe description a far darker (no pun intended) cult than either Humakt or ZZ. And a bit silly, too, with the centrality of beer.

[metcalph]

9 minutes ago, DrGoth said:

In Storm Tribe (yes, I know, not canon anymore) she is referred to as the "Goddess of Revenge and Terror". Not just Revenge. Her depiction there is far darker than the RQ3 Gods of Glorantha, where she is simply the "Holy Avenger". In Storm Tribe there are ritual markings described for everything up to annihilation of an entire clan. So, depending on when that Healing Valley reference was first conceived, it could fit.

The slaughter of the Healing Valley is first mentioned in the prosopedia of RQ3's Gods of Glorantha.  As for trying to find a reason for the slaughter, that's kinda like trying to find one for Apollo's skinning of Marsyas.  It was long ago, it happened and nobody knows why.  

[jajagappa]

12 hours ago, svensson said:

I don't know why BG is supposed to have done this

Berserk frenzy/fury/rage. It's not about rational explanation for either BG, ZZ, or Storm Bull.