How corrupt does a Lunar Chaotic Have to Be to Draw Attention?

[Darius West]

According to Strangers in Prax, the Lunars aren't tolerant of broo bands roaming around and annoying people.  They go to the same lengths to destroy them as anyone else.  Why?  Because nobody wants their tax revenue damaged by outbreaks of broo babies killing their livestock and tax payers.  Lunar propaganda does a lot of tut-tutting and hand wringing about how Chaos creatures can be saved from barbarism, but the main way the Lunar Empire saves them is by exploiting them as mercenary shock troops.

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Therefore they utilised the power of something to hand, Primal Chaos, within the world.  The cracks allowed Chaos to attempt to swamp the world, not to enter it.

The ritual of Chaos Birth comes after the encounter with Rashoran/a (with the knowledge of the lability of perspective), right? Dare I suggest that the “destruction” of the Spike was just an aspect switch? Something a bit like this, perhaps:

• The Spike = the universe seen as divine gift: good, full, and sustainable
• Wakboth   = the universe seen as evil
• Jotimam   = the universe seen as empty
• Kajabor   = the universe seen as ending

The universe, or perhaps its nature. And all with a big charge of awe. To see Kajabor is to regard thermodynamics with alarm, but the underlying physics didn’t change at the moment of one’s horrified realisation (and one may realise that and still be horrified).

Nothing changed. Everything changed. A bit like Nietzsche’s death of God?

The real crime in “birthing the Devil” was to cause us to see the world as abhorrent? Mallia was Mother of Microbes — sometimes beneficial, sometimes not — but now we can only see her as Mother of Maladies and recoil in revulsion?

As always, this comes with a big dose of maybe.

[AndreJarosch]

7 hours ago, David Scott said:

I'd say that it basically changes their form in into the standard goat broo - goat head, horns and hooves (3pt armour on head). As broo stats and human stats are roughly the same, i'd keep those as is.

How has you handles the transformation?
Instant on the spot? Over night (going t bed as human, waking up as a broo)? or a long transformation that takes weeks or even seasons?

[David Scott]

56 minutes ago, AndreJarosch said:

How has you handles the transformation?
Instant on the spot? Over night (going t bed as human, waking up as a broo)? or a long transformation that takes weeks or even seasons?

It hasn't happened (yet) in any game I've run, but I'd go for the An American Werwolf in London (1981) style transformation (mainly for nostalgic reasons). The transformation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGe_iwOGfiI

Trust me it's a classic...

 

[AndreJarosch]

32 minutes ago, David Scott said:

It hasn't happened (yet) in any game I've run, but I'd go for the An American Werwolf in London (1981) style transformation (mainly for nostalgic reasons). The transformation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGe_iwOGfiI

Trust me it's a classic...

 

I have seen that movie multiple times. 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

Lunar propaganda does a lot of tut-tutting and hand wringing about how Chaos creatures can be saved from barbarism, but the main way the Lunar Empire saves them is by exploiting them as mercenary shock troops.

As opposed to Praxians, who tut-tut about how Chaos creatures threaten the existence of the Compromise, then exploit them as mercenary shock troops.  🙂

[soltakss]

On 5/24/2024 at 2:44 PM, Mao said:

how do the Yelmics actually contribute to the running of the Empire?

They rule bits of the Lunar Empire.

On 5/24/2024 at 5:20 PM, theconfusingeel said:

I assume turning into a broo means you become a goat broo

Not necessarily, it might depend on how powerful your totem animal is.

Yanafal Tarnils is depicted as having ram horns, so maybe his worshippers can become Ram Broos.

 

[John Biles]

7 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

The real crime in “birthing the Devil” was to cause us to see the world as abhorrent? Mallia was Mother of Microbes — sometimes beneficial, sometimes not — but now we can only see her as Mother of Maladies and recoil in revulsion?

As always, this comes with a big dose of maybe.

Most Gloranthans don't see the world as abhorrent.  Mystics do, it is why they want to escape it. 

But most cultures seem to see it as difficult, but good.  Orlanthi revel in their bodies and the produce of the land and the joy of the hunt.  Lodrilli likewise.  Chaos is seen as an abberant bad thing.

And the crime of the Unholy Trio is unleashing a monster who wants to destroy and corrupt everything, to ruin the world.

They made *Chaos* abhorrent when once it was just potential and randomness.

 

Also, to address earlier stuff, I find the idea that a large chunk of Yanafil initiates have turned into Broo to be too ludicrous for my Glorantha. 

[jajagappa]

On 5/24/2024 at 2:50 PM, Ian Absentia said:

A satyr and a broo meet in the woods. Why don't they acknowledge each other as brethren?

Sounds like a Nysalor Riddle to me!  Probably the Beast Man Lore riddle.

[Akhôrahil]

As far as corruption goes, skimming tax income is surely vastly worse than having tentacles, or even performing questionable acts with them?

[Jens]

41 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

skimming tax income is surely vastly worse than having tentacles

Yes, that's the one more likely to get the Tax Demons sent after you.

[EricW]

17 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

The ritual of Chaos Birth comes after the encounter with Rashoran/a (with the knowledge of the lability of perspective), right? Dare I suggest that the “destruction” of the Spike was just an aspect switch? Something a bit like this, perhaps:

• The Spike = the universe seen as divine gift: good, full, and sustainable
• Wakboth   = the universe seen as evil
• Jotimam   = the universe seen as empty
• Kajabor   = the universe seen as ending

The universe, or perhaps its nature. And all with a big charge of awe. To see Kajabor is to regard thermodynamics with alarm, but the underlying physics didn’t change at the moment of one’s horrified realisation (and one may realise that and still be horrified).

Nothing changed. Everything changed. A bit like Nietzsche’s death of God?

The real crime in “birthing the Devil” was to cause us to see the world as abhorrent? Mallia was Mother of Microbes — sometimes beneficial, sometimes not — but now we can only see her as Mother of Maladies and recoil in revulsion?

As always, this comes with a big dose of maybe.

If this is the case, what prevents Gloranthans who witness the utter horror of the spike exploding from escaping by simply stepping back into the Green Age? There must be something, like awareness of the existence of evil, which makes it very difficult to undo the harm. Or to put it another way, you cannot defeat evil by ignoring it. 

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

As far as corruption goes, skimming tax income is surely vastly worse than having tentacles, or even performing questionable acts with them?

Paying less tax than contracted will get you the tax demons. Taking more tax than is due to the empire and skimming that difference (or keeping it as a war chest for worse years) is accepted (and in case of a war chest, even good) practice.

[mfbrandi]

5 hours ago, EricW said:

Or to put it another way, you cannot defeat evil by ignoring it.

No, you can’t … although evil does get really wound up if you ignore it. narcissistic personality disorder?

My point — pitiful thing that it was! — was that any evil of the world (of the kind that comes stitched in at the most fundamental level) was always there. It is just that we woke up to it one day. There are ways to cope — speak to Nysalor on the way out, they have leaflets — but there is no age of innocence to be recaptured: if the world is Wakboth’s, it always was. You cannot go home again, because you were never there.

Biting the “apple” is the fall, the perception switch. Any angel with a fiery sword (or whatever) barring the way “back” is just deceptive set dressing.

I am just an incurable optimist, I guess. 😉

[Joerg]

48 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

there is no age of innocence to be recaptured: if the world is Wakboth’s, it always was.

The Age of Innocence still is out there. The sad thing about it is while you can visit it inside Godtime, you will inevitably end it by your visit.

[Jeff]

There's a lot of ways to go with this, and I am disinclined to spell out a single preferred approach (and really don't need to in published works). For example:

Option 1. Chaos Gift is rarely taken in the Lunar Empire. It's always there as a potential temptation, but who wants to become a Chaos monster? Yanafal Tarnils gets feared because maybe 1 in 50 initiates are demons (broos). Stay safe and stay in the Seven Mothers. There are a few warped priests and Illuminates who play around with this stuff and they are revered and feared at the same time. Call this the More Mundane Option.

Option 2. Chaos Gift is widely taken by the ambitious, the determined and the devout. Sure we don't see that much in the Lunar Provinces, but the  closer you get to places like Glamour, Blessed Torang or the Temples of the Reaching Moon the more you find people warped by Chaos. Demonic bros-folk are common in elite circles, and the lower classes hold their rulers in fear and religious awe (or pure terror among non-Lunarized cults). Broo-demon priestesses of Deezola or Hon-eel are held as proof of the Red Goddess' triumph and that Chaos is not necessarily evil, and the occasional broo-demon priest of Yelm serves in Glamour. Call this the Moorcockian Option.

Option 3. These rules are for players and shouldn't be used as a Sim Glorantha exercise. The likelihood of NPCs becoming transformed by playing around with Chaos is purely a matter of GM fiat. Call this the Its A Game Option.

Regardless of option taken, there are dangers of flirting with Chaos - it runs a risk of transforming the user into something seemingly monstrous, even if one is Illuminated. 

[Darius West]

On 5/26/2024 at 5:34 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

As opposed to Praxians, who tut-tut about how Chaos creatures threaten the existence of the Compromise, then exploit them as mercenary shock troops.  🙂

Hey, they lost that battle, because they lost divine favor.  The Bison Tribe was every bit as stupid and stinky as the High Llamas say.  That being said, I wonder if Argrath ever stoops to using chaotic shock troops?  I can't recall anything from King of Sartar that says he will. Then again, that biased document doesn't even mention Argrath sending ducks to Delecti to win his favor. 

[EricW]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Hey, they lost that battle, because they lost divine favor.  The Bison Tribe was every bit as stupid and stinky as the High Llamas say.  That being said, I wonder if Argrath ever stoops to using chaotic shock troops?  I can't recall anything from King of Sartar that says he will. Then again, that biased document doesn't even mention Argrath sending ducks to Delecti to win his favor. 

I love it - the Lightbringer Chaos Corps. Just keep them separate form the Storm Bulls 🙂

Edited May 30 by EricW

[Tatterdemalion Fox]

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

Hey, they lost that battle, because they lost divine favor.

That’s a technically correct way of saying “because they did not have the mythic insight to understand the relationship between Lodril and Oakfed.” I don’t think Oakfed was fuming about Broos fighting on one flank there.

[Darius West]

22 hours ago, Tatterdemalion Fox said:

That’s a technically correct way of saying “because they did not have the mythic insight to understand the relationship between Lodril and Oakfed.” I don’t think Oakfed was fuming about Broos fighting on one flank there.

Well, whichever Bison Khan hired broo mercenaries should have been kicked out of Waha, for a start.

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Well, whichever Bison Khan hired broo mercenaries should have been kicked out of Waha, for a start.

I know you like banging the drum that the Praxians are hypocrites, but the Praxians would view this as very clear-eyed pragmatism rather than hypocrisy. Getting your foes to fight your more dangerous foes is very much in accordance with Waha's mythology and I suspect something that many would praise the khan for rather than condemn.

[Darius West]

Just now, Jeff said:

I know you like banging the drum that the Praxians are hypocrites, but the Praxians would view this as very clear-eyed pragmatism rather than hypocrisy. Getting your foes to fight your more dangerous foes is very much in accordance with Waha's mythology and I suspect something that many would praise the khan for rather than condemn.

Is it pragmatism to break your religious vows though?  Chaos is the eternal enemy of the Praxians.  I think we both know that the High Llamas would sneer at the Bisons, and call them not only stinking gern, but broo-buggered krjalki lovers twice over.  Once for hiring broos to do their fighting because they would not pay the High Llamas what they were worth, and secondly because in breaking faith with the Gods of Prax by hiring broos, they lost to the Chaos embodied by the Lunars.  Thus for the first time since the Dawn, the forces of Chaos were in power in Prax.  What next?  The Lunars concoct a scheme to remove the Block?  The Bison were not pragmatists, they were corrupt.

[Ynneadwraith]

@Darius West @Jeff Such is the way that tribal conflicts begin...

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Is it pragmatism to break your religious vows though?  Chaos is the eternal enemy of the Praxians.  I think we both know that the High Llamas would sneer at the Bisons, and call them not only stinking gern, but broo-buggered krjalki lovers twice over.  Once for hiring broos to do their fighting because they would not pay the High Llamas what they were worth, and secondly because in breaking faith with the Gods of Prax by hiring broos, they lost to the Chaos embodied by the Lunars.  Thus for the first time since the Dawn, the forces of Chaos were in power in Prax.  What next?  The Lunars concoct a scheme to remove the Block?  The Bison were not pragmatists, they were corrupt.

Waha hates Chaos, true, and seeks it destruction, but there is nothing in the cult that prevents Waha from encouraging Chaos to die fighting Waha's foes. Of course, Waha will then turn on the weakened Chaos if possible.

The bigger question is why the broo keep falling for this trick?

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Is it pragmatism to break your religious vows though?

I would say there are two levels of pragmatism :

 

1) you accept to fight with your enemy against a more powerful enemy. You expect the victory and more enemy losses

2) you refuse to fight with your enemy against a more powerful enemy, but you will find a strategem to send your enemy against the other one, let them destroy themselves and then destroy the survivors.

It is clear that, if I were a praxian, I will follow the second option, but there are people who are less adamant than me 🙂 

Quote

Yes I want to become khan of the Block, do you have any problem with that ? see the snail here, prove me that you can defeat it and we will talk about your arguments... ..... Oh wait I forgot to tell you that this one is just the first of the pack my men are hunting.. Arg he is too far to hear me... unfortunately...