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Newest RQ Designer Notes


Jeff

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13 hours ago, K Peterson said:

I think the downside to that is that the precalc leads to an extremely 'busy' character sheet with values filled all over the place. Replacing the time spent doing-math-in-play with scanning-over-a-jampacked-sheet for the value you need.

I agree, I don't like the busy looking character sheets of CoC 7E due to this. The digital versions are okay, but if you have to hand write a sheet it looks very hectic and complicated, more like an accountant's ledger than a character sheet.

However you can easily have the CoC 7E skill resolution and just record the Characteristics and Skills at the regular % values. It's very easy for the GM to reference the Quick Reference Chart in gameplay, and even quicker if every player has a copy of one with their character sheet.

 

Edited by Mankcam

" Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!"

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There's also the SPQR solution, where the success levels are:

Quote

Rolling within the needed % but more than ½ the needed % = 1 success

Rolling within ½ the needed % but greater than 1/10 the needed % = 2 successes

Rolling within 1/10 the needed % but greater than 1/100 the needed % = 3 successess

Rolling within 1/100 the needed % = 4 successes

It's similar to CoC7, but the chances to score the equivalent of a crit are easier to calculate.

EDIT: I don't understand why I have this blank space below...

Edited by Mugen
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I like the 'tiers of success' thing (imo someone in the RQ3 community had done that back in the 80s, with terms like supercrit, etc maybe that was Steve Perrin), and don't know why RQ6 (in particular) didn't adopt it.

 

Ergo, a success vs a fumble is the same 'degree of success' as a Special vs a Failure, or a Crit vs Success.  Seems pretty robust.

 

In particular for RQ6, it could have been implemented to mitigate the balance issues of some of the overpowered special effects.  ie "you have to have 3 successes to pick from this group", etc.

Edited by styopa
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1 hour ago, styopa said:

In particular for RQ6, it could have been implemented to mitigate the balance issues of some of the overpowered special effects.  ie "you have to have 3 successes to pick from this group", etc.

But... it already works so. Some effects require that you crit in order to be available. The point is that RQ6/Mythras only has 2 levels of success, so talking about "more than one success" is basically the same as saying "you need to crit". It would just be more complicate than it is.

As for the balance issues, they really depend on the tastes of the table. Each and every group has its own hidiosincracy against one or more effect that they consider the "game spoiler", and it is almost always a different one. The suggested solution is "make it a crit only effect in your game if it bugs you", and it works for most groups. The effects that have been found to be overpowered by the majority of playtesters are already marked as "critical only" in the standard rules after a well-pondered consideration. I must still have the playtest report emails I exchanged with Loz & Pete back in 2009, and the issue was given the proper attention. The solution adopted was the one that worked for the greatest possible numbers of players. And for the record: it was not the one I suggested, so I am not defending it because I am biased.

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On 4/29/2016 at 5:20 AM, Jeff said:

The Battle Magic of old is Spirit Magic - the use of spirits to perform an effect through use of a foci or charm. Bladesharp, Heal, Second Sight - all are spirit magic spells.

 

Ugh.  I hated the switch from Battle Magic to Spirit Magic; I ignored the spirit attachment to those spells.  I was so glad that MRQ2 and RQ6 dropped the spirit thing.

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On 5/24/2016 at 2:18 AM, Mankcam said:

I totally agree that the CoC 7E skill resolution approach is the best way to go.

It is intutitive, it runs smoothly and it works well; plus it would be good to see some consistency in the new rulesets.

I disagree and is not intuitive. I see a lot of math being involved during play (or a busy character sheet which has already been covered) which will slow things down considerably.  Combat (or any fast action in general) needs to be quick, not having people spend a lot of time to make sure their math is correct.

I suggested in another thread a way to have additional levels of success that is quick to see: doubles.  For example, a 22 is rolled on an attack, it's quite obvious without the need to do math or consult some chart.  22 is not low enough for a critical (unless the attacker is very very good), but could be considered a special success if special successes are desired.

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38 minutes ago, GamingGlen said:

I suggested in another thread a way to have additional levels of success that is quick to see: doubles.  For example, a 22 is rolled on an attack, it's quite obvious without the need to do math or consult some chart.  22 is not low enough for a critical (unless the attacker is very very good), but could be considered a special success if special successes are desired.

Doubles-rolled-under-skill-level are used as criticals in Delta Green: the Roleplaying Game (the recent, Kickstarted edition). In addition, to an 01 being rolled. And it can be a very intuitive method when you get used to it. (The same is true of using doubles-over-skill as being fumble values).

However, a 22 could be considered 'low enough for a critical' if you're only using 01's and doubles as crits. For example, with a skill of 56, crits would occur on an 01, 11, 22, 33, 44, 55. A 6% chance. It gets more complex if you're including the 01-05 range, and doubles, and trying to rope in special successes.

 

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5 hours ago, GamingGlen said:

Ugh.  I hated the switch from Battle Magic to Spirit Magic; I ignored the spirit attachment to those spells.  I was so glad that MRQ2 and RQ6 dropped the spirit thing.

I liked the term Basic Magic better than Battle Magic, due to not every spell being a combat spell. I didn't like the Spirit Magic title from RQ3 as it didn't make sense for me to have spirits as foci trappings for every culture.

I prefer MRQ2/Legend's term Common Magic, or just stick with Basic Magic (which RQ2 Battle Magic was listed as an example). Spirit Magic does seem an odd one to bring back.

" Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!"

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Spirit Magic in Glorantha is exactly what it says it is. It is a spell to get a spirit to create an effect. And pretty much every Gloranthan culture uses spirit magic. It is not the same thing as shamanism (which is a type of spirit specialist).

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Implementing CoC 7E rules into RQ would not appeal to me in any way slightest, I have to say. It would be a turn off. 

The information that is presented in the designer notes is all a bit confusing to me at the moment, generally. There's a lot of discussion about calculating skill scores and the like, but without seeing the full set of mechanisms it's difficult to see how it all hangs together - and that sort of thing is often a finely balanced thing in terms of personal taste. 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, GamingGlen said:

I disagree and is not intuitive. I see a lot of math being involved during play (or a busy character sheet which has already been covered) which will slow things down considerably.  Combat (or any fast action in general) needs to be quick, not having people spend a lot of time to make sure their math is correct.

I suggested in another thread a way to have additional levels of success that is quick to see: doubles.  For example, a 22 is rolled on an attack, it's quite obvious without the need to do math or consult some chart.  22 is not low enough for a critical (unless the attacker is very very good), but could be considered a special success if special successes are desired.

I actually like the idea of  'rolling doubles' for Special Successes, although it would be inconsistent with most other editions of BRP. It is a very simple gamist innovation, and looks like it could work well for Delta Green. I'ld be happy with it in RQ.

However the CoC 7E success levels are more of an expansion to the current Classic BRP success levels, just introducing one more success level, although this can play a big role in the skill resolution system. 

It doesn't mean all the skill scores for each success level need to be on a character sheet like suggested in CoC7E, as the Quick Reference chart is a synch to look at, especially if the players have one each. I totaly agree that having busy looking character sheets are not the way to go, but it isn't necessary in any case. I don't mind the digital autocalc sheets for CoC 7E, but hand writing them looks needlessly complex and I won't be putting all the fiddly scores on the sheet.

Having an extra success level doesn't feel very complex to me, it actually feels very logical.  As I have stated elsewhere, I think it may also be good for some consistency for skill resolution between the contemporary Chaosium BRP rule sets to make it easier for everyone to easily adapt to.

 

Edited by Mankcam

" Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!"

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2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Spirit Magic in Glorantha is exactly what it says it is. It is a spell to get a spirit to create an effect. And pretty much every Gloranthan culture uses spirit magic. It is not the same thing as shamanism (which is a type of spirit specialist).

I just didn't get this impression from RQ2 Basic/Battle Magic, and the term Spirit Magic didn't grab me all that much in RQ3. 

It just felt too animistic for some of the cultures. For example, I couldn't see Seshnelan townsfolk using spirit foci (however we didn't have clear impressions of Malkioni back then either).

The fact that common people use this magic in everyday practices was such a big feature of RuneQuest when it was initially conceived, and remains a hallmark of Glorantha to this day.

I have really liked most of Moon Design's interpretation of Glorantha, so I'm very interested in seeing how Basic Magic rolls out in the next edition, as it will have quite a big impact on the portrayal of Glorantha as a setting.

Edited by Mankcam
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" Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!"

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7 hours ago, GamingGlen said:

Ugh.  I hated the switch from Battle Magic to Spirit Magic; I ignored the spirit attachment to those spells.  I was so glad that MRQ2 and RQ6 dropped the spirit thing.

+1 on this.  I want some spells to be just that:  spells.  If everything is "I get a spirit to do <spell X>" (at least, behind the curtains) it feels VERY different, to me.

If I am discorporated from my body, can my spirit then cast a spell?  If a spirit gets bound into a body, is it unable to cast (until it goes discorporate)?

No.  I find no satisfying answers to the questions above... Not "yes" or "no" or "sometimes" or "maybe."

Let some folks cast spells by getting spirits to do so on their behalf; fine.  But don't make that the ONLY way -- let the ordinary "everyman" magic be (at least mostly) direct-cast SPELLS, not mediated by spirits.

 

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6 hours ago, Mankcam said:

I just didn't get this impression from RQ2 Basic/Battle Magic, and the term Spirit Magic didn't grab me all that much in RQ3. 

It just felt too animistic for some of the cultures. For example, I couldn't see Seshnelan townsfolk using spirit foci (however we didn't have clear impressions of Malkioni back then either).

The oldest mentions of the Seshnegi in RQ products mention that they worship their ancestors in the roles of gods. That would have made Daka Fal the logical source for such magic.

Jeff has repeatedly stated that ancestor worship is a lot more common than we perceive it through our rules-tainted perception.

6 hours ago, Mankcam said:

The fact that common people use this magic in everyday practices was such a big feature of RuneQuest when it was initially conceived, and remains a hallmark of Glorantha to this day.

The civilized empires are different from the Theyalan culture - fewer people initiate to higher cultic ranks, emperor worship will take up much of the laity's magical energy. The full write-up of the Yelm cult has the Yelm the Youth stage which is basically some slightly Yelm-tainted adulthood initiation, granting no magic.

 

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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9 hours ago, Jeff said:

Spirit Magic in Glorantha is exactly what it says it is. It is a spell to get a spirit to create an effect. And pretty much every Gloranthan culture uses spirit magic. It is not the same thing as shamanism (which is a type of spirit specialist).

Will there be rules for shamanism in the new RuneQuest?

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23 hours ago, Jeff said:

Spirit Magic in Glorantha is exactly what it says it is. It is a spell to get a spirit to create an effect. And pretty much every Gloranthan culture uses spirit magic. It is not the same thing as shamanism (which is a type of spirit specialist).

Meh, it's asserted to be so, but works nothing like that in practice.

There is, as far as any of the rules ever in RQ history as far as I know, no "spirit" that gives a sword +5% to hit and +1 damage (Bladesharp).  Spirits can deaden sound (Silence)?  I have to use a spirit (Spirit Binding spirit magic spell) to bind a spirit?  That's rather recursive.  And by the logic that these are all being done (in a hand-wavy way) "by spirits", then I could cast a Spirit Screen around my pile of gold and make it undetectable by Detect Gold?   No such mechanic has ever been implied?

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17 hours ago, styopa said:

Meh, it's asserted to be so, but works nothing like that in practice.

There is, as far as any of the rules ever in RQ history as far as I know, no "spirit" that gives a sword +5% to hit and +1 damage (Bladesharp).  Spirits can deaden sound (Silence)?  I have to use a spirit (Spirit Binding spirit magic spell) to bind a spirit?  That's rather recursive.  And by the logic that these are all being done (in a hand-wavy way) "by spirits", then I could cast a Spirit Screen around my pile of gold and make it undetectable by Detect Gold?   No such mechanic has ever been implied?

The spirit in question is the spirit of the caster? It's the Conservation of POW Law, where expenditure of spirit buys limited (mostly external) effects. 8-)

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Meh, I just look at it differently. 

Bladesharp: A flint spirit to add sharpness to your blade

Silence: Moss spirit to deaden your footfall, a mouse spirit to be as silent as..

Spirit binding: A predator such as a spider spirit to ensnare the victim.

Detection blank: A darkness spirit to hide the gold from the detection. Raven to conceal it...

 

There are soooooo many variants and possibilities.

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That's kind of how I remember RQ3 Spirit Magic. It really suited Praxians and possibly Orlanthi, but just didn't seemed to fit my views of how Malkioni or Dara Happans may use Basic Magic. However my Gloranthan resources were limited back then, so my interpretations of the cultures were different.

I think I kind of like having an option wherein that common folk can learn to connect with their Spirit selves and retain 'portions' of that connection whilst in the Mundane Realm, which manifest in the form of extraordinary abilities or magical effects. This works well for me, as it doesn't totally fly against the RQ2 idea of Basic Magic being presented as 'spells' or 'magical talents'.

I quite like it, although I don't think that RQ3 Spirit Magic was originally intended this way; I suspect it was more how Iskallor describes in the previous post.

If I had to make a quick houserule, I would deem that it probably costs more POW to learn ( or time) to connect with your own Spirit Self, although the upside is that you don't require any foci once you have the connection to that magical effect (perhaps have runic tattoos to portray the connection). This would allow the option for some cultures to do it this way, whilst allowing others to keep foci with spirits bound into them as presented in RQ3. So it's a marriage between how I view RQ2 Basic Magic and RQ3 Basic Magic, and it would depend upon the culture and cult which path is taken.

Not sure if this would work well for everyone's setting, or how incompatible this will be in CRQ4. I'll have to see how it is presented in the new rules before making any judgement, but I suspect it is not how it will be in CRQ4.

No problems either way.

Edited by Mankcam

" Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!"

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On May 27, 2016 at 9:46 PM, styopa said:

Meh, it's asserted to be so, but works nothing like that in practice.

There is, as far as any of the rules ever in RQ history as far as I know, no "spirit" that gives a sword +5% to hit and +1 damage (Bladesharp).  Spirits can deaden sound (Silence)?  I have to use a spirit (Spirit Binding spirit magic spell) to bind a spirit?  That's rather recursive.  And by the logic that these are all being done (in a hand-wavy way) "by spirits", then I could cast a Spirit Screen around my pile of gold and make it undetectable by Detect Gold?   No such mechanic has ever been implied?

Spirit magic concerns communication with the spirits that reside in the natural energy currents of the world and involves the forceful alteration of the fabric of reality by temporary expenditure of one’s POW, expressed as Magic Points (MP). One concentrates on the focus, unlocks the spell in one's mind or spirit or however it is understood by you, and you temporarily alter the natural energy currents of the world. An animist might understand this as "the spirits aid my sword" while the materialists might understand this as "the natural energy flows briefly favor my sword" or whatever. Since the spiritual energy currents don't make Spirit Combat attacks, Spirit Screen would be totally useless for the purpose you described.
Spirit magic does not require a shaman to learn - most cults have ways to pass on spirit magic from one person to another. It is used in all Gloranthan cultures and religions. 

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5 hours ago, Jeff said:

Spirit magic concerns communication with the spirits that reside in the natural energy currents of the world  (...) while the materialists might understand this as "the natural energy flows briefly favor my sword" or whatever.

Isn't there a contradiction here ? Saying that "spirits reside in the natural energies" is definitely an animistic point of vue, and not a materialist or even theistic one. Are all the cultures animist in Glorantha ? In order to conciliate these differents conceptions, couldn't we understand Spirit Magic instead as "effect triggered by the mental force of the caster", which resides, as we all know :huh:, in his spirit ? Whatever are these forces, spirits or energie currents or god's will, is left to each culture.

 

 

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I prefer to use Common Magic rather than Spirit/Battle Magic. 

Spirit Magic always seemed to imply using spirits, which the magic clearly didn't do, except for using Spell Spirits to store spells and to learn spells from.

Many spells are not battle-oriented and were not in RQ2, so we thought that Battle Magic was badly named way back then.

 

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