Austin Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 I noticed something interesting recently: the starting skill bonuses an adventurer gets in the adventurer creation chapter due to their cult aren't always from actual cult skills. Most often this is Sing, but there are other examples like Intimidate for Babeester Gor and Maran Gor. This was relevant for my game because I had some players checking these lists for their seasonal occupation/cult skill checks. In addition, adventurers may add "+20% to one of these starting skills and +15% to another" (RQG p.73) during adventurer creation, which seems a bit odd to me because there's often a lot of cult skills which may not necessarily get a starting percentage, where those bonuses could be added (and which I'll probably allow in the future with my own players). Mostly thought it was interesting and figured I'd share. Table comparing the Adventurers chapter & the Rune Cults chapter is below. Deity: Starting Skill Bonuses: Cult Skills: Argan Argar Speak Other Language (Darktongue), Read/Write (Darktongue), Sing 1H Spear, Bargain, Cult Lore, Insight (Human or Troll), Read/Write (Darktongue), Speak (Darktongue), Worship Babeester Gor 1H Axe, 2H Axe, Intimidate, Speak Other Language (Earthtongue) 1H Axe, 2H Axe, Battle, Cult Lore, Listen, Search, Track, Worship Chalana Arroy First Aid, Treat Disease or Treat Poison, Sing Alchemy, Cult Lore, First Aid, Plant Lore, Treat Disease, Treat Poison, Worship Daka Fal Speak Other Language (Spiritspeech), Spirit Combat, Sing Cult Lore, Speak (Spiritspeech), Spirit Combat, Spirit Lore, Worship (Ancestors) Eiritha Understand Herd Beasts, Herd, Sing 1H Axe, Animal Lore, Herd, Homeland Lore (local), Plant Lore, Understand Herd Beasts, Worship Engizi Boat, Speak Other Language (Boatspeech), Swim Boat, Cult Lore, River Lore, Speak (Boatspeech), Swim Ernalda Dance, Animal Lore or Plant Lore, Sing, Speak Other Language (Earthtongue) Animal Lore, Dance, Cult Lore, Farm, First Aid, Insight (human), Orate, Plant Lore, Worship Eurmal Dodge, Fast Talk, Charm Charm, Conceal, Cult Lore, Dodge, Fast Talk, Sleight, Worship Foundchild Track, Peaceful Cut, Sing Devise, Hide, Missile Weapon, Move Quietly, Peaceful Cut, Scan, Survival, Track, Worship Humakt 1H Sword, Other Weapon, Intimidate 1H Sword, 2H Sword, Battle, Craft (Bronze or Iron), Cult Lore, First Aid, Scan, Sense Assassin, Worship Issaries Bargain, Speak Other Language (Tradetalk), Sing Bargain, Cult Lore, Customs, Evaluate, Orate, Speak Own/Speak Other Language (any), Speak (Tradetalk), Worship Lhankor Mhy Read/Write (any), Lore (any), Sing Alchemy, Cult Lore, Evaluate, Lore (any), Read/Write (any), Worship Maran Gor 1H Axe or Mace, Dance, Intimidate, Speak Other Language (Earthtongue) Climb, Cult Lore, Dance, 1H Axe, 1H Mace, Scan, Throw, Worship Odayla Track, Peaceful Cut, Sing Climb, Hide, Missile Weapon, Move Quietly, Peaceful Cut, Scan, Survival, Track, Worship Orlanth Orate, Speak Other Language (Stormspeech), Sing, any sword, Dance 1H Sword, Battle, Cult Lore, Farm, Herd, Orate, Scan, Sing, Speak (Stormspeech), Worship Seven Mothers Speak Other Language (New Pelorian), Read/Write (New Pelorian), Sing Conceal, Cult Lore, Insight (Human), Listen, Lunar Empire Lore, 1H Sword (Kopis), Read/Write (New Pelorian), Scan, Speak (New Pelorian), Worship Storm Bull Cultural Weapon, Sense Chaos, Intimidate Battle, Cult Lore, Cultural Weapons, Ride, Scan, Sense Chaos, Track, Understand Herd Beast, Worship Waha Peaceful Cut, Spirit Combat, Sing Cult Lore, Peaceful Cut, Ride, Spirit Combat, Survival, Tribal Weapon, Worship Yelm Ride, Speak Other Language (Firespeech), Sing Bow, Cult Lore, Ride (Horse), Speak (Firespeech), Worship Yelmalio Celestial Lore, Speak Other Language (Firespeech), Sing Battle, Bow, Celestial Lore, Cult Lore, Listen, 1H Long Speak, Pike, Scan, Search, Speak (Firespeech), Worship Yinkin Speak Other Language (Beastspeech), Track Charm, Climb, Hide, Move Quietly, Scan, Speak (Beastspeech), Survival, Track, Worship 2 Quote Jonstown Compendium author. Find my publications here. Disclaimer: affiliate link. Social Media: Facebook Patreon Twitter Website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilHibbs Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 (edited) Correct, and not a discrepancy. Babeester Gor cultists are very intimidating, for example. It's a skill that they naturally tend to acquire, but it is not a skill that the cult values and rewards. So they get the skill, but it is not a "cult skill" for the purposes of advancement. I also allow the skills from the cult section to be chosen for the +20/+15 bonus. Edited June 11, 2019 by PhilHibbs 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumath Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 That makes sense. I can imagine skills like Sing and Intimidate being developed through communal practice and demeanour rather than through formal instruction. Speak Other Language could be picked up colloquially (if it's the lingua franca in the temple) or through language lessons. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imryn Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 I noticed the discrepancies as well, but assumed that it was a deliberate mechanism to steer starter adventurers into developing a more rounded range of skills. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Helsdon Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 'Sing' as a cult skill provides some insight to the nature of the worship ceremonies of the cult and hints that some cult spells and rites have to be accompanied by singing (or chanting). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecake Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 11 hours ago, M Helsdon said: hints that some cult spells and rites have to be accompanied by singing (or chanting). Or that they are usually accompanied by singing - it may not be a necessity, but simply a practice. I think, for example, that many Ernalda ceremonies involve singing, and it is a very common ceremonial method for them, but I don't think that means their spells require it, or (as it shows in the skill lists) priestesses are required to be good at singing (just like many many Christian churches). It may even be that while the congregation always sings, their singing is to augment the dance, which in turn is not required but simply the chosen method of ceremonial magic enhancement - which would still mean an initiate gets a lot of practice singing! Where singing is required to cast a spell it is usually directly specified (eg Comfort Song, Tree Chopping Song). I think singing well is not required for the magic to work, in most cases. It can give us plenty of cultural detail though, especially about the details between lay member/initiate ceremonies, vs inner mysteries. Yinkin lay members learn about cats, but the inner mysteries are about becoming (and being good at) being a cat. Yelmalio lay members sing hymns and learn the sacred language and about the skies - not everyone is expected to be part of the warrior culture. Most cults that require the Peaceful Cut sing it, and value singing. Even Lhankor Mhy and Issaries use singing in their ceremonies, though it seemingly has nothing to do with the inner mysteries of the cults. The Argan Argar cult outer mysteries are basically Darktongue language classes (which actually makes a lot of sense). And so on. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imryn Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 I think singing is probably a part of a bronze age persons general life, not just religious ceremonies - I'm thinking work songs and chants and just general entertainment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin Posted June 12, 2019 Author Share Posted June 12, 2019 On 6/11/2019 at 1:35 AM, PhilHibbs said: Correct, and not a discrepancy. Babeester Gor cultists are very intimidating, for example. It's a skill that they naturally tend to acquire, but it is not a skill that the cult values and rewards. So they get the skill, but it is not a "cult skill" for the purposes of advancement. I agree with this. The Gor sisters are freaky. This was more something I noticed and figured could be of interest to discuss. That being said, these are skills described on p.73 as "starting skills taught to [the cult's] members" which implies to me that they ought to be skills the cult values in the sense that they're intentionally teaching it rather than amorphously acquiring it (like Christians learning to sing, kinda, as pointed out above). Though the notion of new Gor initiates sitting in a classroom learning to glare appropriately does bring a smile to my face... 1 3 Quote Jonstown Compendium author. Find my publications here. Disclaimer: affiliate link. Social Media: Facebook Patreon Twitter Website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecake Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, Crel said: Though the notion of new Gor initiates sitting in a classroom learning to glare appropriately does bring a smile to my face... Maybe it is kind of like a haka? In earth cult ceremonies they have to ritually stomp, threaten, glare and look scary? 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kloster Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 54 minutes ago, Imryn said: I think singing is probably a part of a bronze age persons general life, not just religious ceremonies - I'm thinking work songs and chants and just general entertainment. In fact, this was still the case far after bronze aged finished. Up to the begining of 20th century, all human activities that required a regular rythm were guided by more or less 'ritual' songs. The 'Volga Boatmen' is a famous example. The first cinematographers (The Lumiere brothers ones) were singing 'Sambre et Meuse' to keep the rythm, and numerous songs were (and in some cases still are) used to teach alphabet and numbering (Does Ein Zwei Polizei, Drei Vier Offizier, .. raise some memories?). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilHibbs Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 32 minutes ago, Imryn said: I think singing is probably a part of a bronze age persons general life, not just religious ceremonies - I'm thinking work songs and chants and just general entertainment. That would be figured into the skill base chance, then. Some cults generally involve more singing than others, so for example maybe Ernaldans do more singing than Humakti. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiningbrow Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said: That would be figured into the skill base chance, then. Some cults generally involve more singing than others, so for example maybe Ernaldans do more singing than Humakti. "I let my sword do all the singing..." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryon1187 Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 On 6/12/2019 at 4:16 AM, Crel said: That being said, these are skills described on p.73 as "starting skills taught to [the cult's] members" which implies to me that they ought to be skills the cult values in the sense that they're intentionally teaching it rather than amorphously acquiring it (like Christians learning to sing, kinda, as pointed out above). I noticed the same thing with Earthtounge and Ernalda initiates. Hmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Absentia Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 On 6/12/2019 at 1:19 AM, davecake said: Maybe it is kind of like a haka? In earth cult ceremonies they have to ritually stomp, threaten, glare and look scary? I'd assumed that "instruction" in the skill of Intimidation involved enculturation in a general bellicose attitude (like in much of sports culture, say, boxing or American-rules football), but the haka, and any number of cross-cultural equivalents coinciding with ritual combat, is a very specific and purposeful example. Particularly if they're emulating the attitude and postures of their goddess(es), I reckon that's exactly what the followers of the Gors are doing. !i! 2 Quote ...developer of White Rabbit Green Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 On 6/12/2019 at 10:16 AM, Crel said: they ought to be skills the cult values in the sense that they're intentionally teaching it rather than amorphously acquiring it (like Christians learning to sing, kinda, as pointed out above). Christians learning to kinda sing... from my experience. While there are churches where the communities can carry a tune, they should consider themselves lucky. There are many people who are enthusiastic singers but at the same time really bad at it, and then there are people who don't have the confidence to sing the tunes correctly out loud for fear of clashing with the unholy mess those enthusiasts make out of their miscarriages of those tunes. But then, song, dance, or other ritual activities serve to enhance the participants' experience of the worship and sense of unity (if not with the deity, then with the other worshipers). These skills aren't about auditioning for a big stage. 1 Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cgeist7 Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 On 6/11/2019 at 2:35 AM, PhilHibbs said: I also allow the skills from the cult section to be chosen for the +20/+15 bonus. Interesting. I read it the other way (add bonuses to the Cult skills that get bonuses in the character creation chapter). Was this clarified somewhere? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilHibbs Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 3 hours ago, Cgeist7 said: Interesting. I read it the other way (add bonuses to the Cult skills that get bonuses in the character creation chapter). Was this clarified somewhere? The rules say that you pick skill that get cult bonuses. I would also, in addition, allow skills from the cult section to be chosen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill the barbarian Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 6 hours ago, Joerg said: But then, song, dance, or other ritual activities serve to enhance the participants' experience of the worship and sense of unity (if not with the deity, then with the other worshipers). These skills aren't about auditioning for a big stage. And they can augment magic and skills too! Quote ... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g33k Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, Joerg said: Christians learning to kinda sing... from my experience. While there are churches where the communities can carry a tune, they should consider themselves lucky. There are many people who are enthusiastic singers but at the same time really bad at it, and then there are people who don't have the confidence to sing the tunes correctly out loud for fear of clashing with the unholy mess those enthusiasts make out of their miscarriages of those tunes. In these situations I call out, "please, everybody -- agree on ONE key to sing in! I'll cover all the others, and hopefully y'all will drown me out!' (edit: Sorry, Bill. I know how much music means to you; I am strictly an appreciator. I couldn't carry a tune in a bucket if the bucket were hermetically sealed and duct-taped to my hand) Edited October 9, 2019 by g33k with apologies 1 1 Quote C'es ne pas un .sig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 9 hours ago, Cgeist7 said: Interesting. I read it the other way (add bonuses to the Cult skills that get bonuses in the character creation chapter). Was this clarified somewhere? You are reading it correctly. Cults have plenty of skills that are associated with being a member that are not part of becoming a Rune master. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmie Posted May 15, 2020 Share Posted May 15, 2020 Sorry to revive this thread, but I’m confused about an issue that’s discussed here. From what list can the additional +20/+15 cult starting skill bonuses (as referenced on p. 73) be applied? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilHibbs Posted May 15, 2020 Share Posted May 15, 2020 2 hours ago, Jimmie said: Sorry to revive this thread, but I’m confused about an issue that’s discussed here. From what list can the additional +20/+15 cult starting skill bonuses (as referenced on p. 73) be applied? I think officially it's just the ones in the character creation cult section, but I'd allow any cult skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akhôrahil Posted May 15, 2020 Share Posted May 15, 2020 I realized that half my players had thought that when I said "cult skills", I referred to those they get from start, not the ones in the cult description. I thought this design is asking for that kind of misunderstanding. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAZZA Posted May 15, 2020 Share Posted May 15, 2020 What surprised me was how few cults grant any sort of Read/Write. In RQ3 that was a standard Initiate occupation skill and, often, a requirement for Priest status. I'm not by any means suggesting this is wrong - heck, I can see why you don't want Storm Khans running around quoting whoever the Gloranthan equivalent of Shakespeare and P G Wodehouse are - but it did surprise me as a change (even somewhat more civilised deities like Yelm don't give it as a cult skill - you need to be in a specifically knowledge type cult such as LM). It has meant that when my group were signing the Lunar documents to be able to register themselves to be allowed to go into the Big Rubble and hunt for the gorp geyser that they all just marked it with an X and had to take the Lunars' word for it as to what it said; similarly with the contract they just signed with Duke Raus. I wonder if that was the case back in RQ2 days when these supplements were published. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kloster Posted May 15, 2020 Share Posted May 15, 2020 Yes. Read/Write skills are much more restricted now with RQG. For me, it made sense to have at least the priests of most cults to be able to read their sacred texts, even if badly and slowly. The mercenary contracts (of Borderlands, for ex.) are another matter. I think RQ2 authors didn't think especially about the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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