Cult Skill Discrepancies

[Austin]

I noticed something interesting recently: the starting skill bonuses an adventurer gets in the adventurer creation chapter due to their cult aren't always from actual cult skills. Most often this is Sing, but there are other examples like Intimidate for Babeester Gor and Maran Gor. This was relevant for my game because I had some players checking these lists for their seasonal occupation/cult skill checks. In addition, adventurers may add "+20% to one of these starting skills and +15% to another" (RQG p.73) during adventurer creation, which seems a bit odd to me because there's often a lot of cult skills which may not necessarily get a starting percentage, where those bonuses could be added (and which I'll probably allow in the future with my own players).

Mostly thought it was interesting and figured I'd share. Table comparing the Adventurers chapter & the Rune Cults chapter is below.

Deity:	Starting Skill Bonuses:	Cult Skills:
Argan Argar	Speak Other Language (Darktongue), Read/Write (Darktongue), Sing	1H Spear, Bargain, Cult Lore, Insight (Human or Troll), Read/Write (Darktongue), Speak (Darktongue), Worship
Babeester Gor	1H Axe, 2H Axe, Intimidate, Speak Other Language (Earthtongue)	1H Axe, 2H Axe, Battle, Cult Lore, Listen, Search, Track, Worship
Chalana Arroy	First Aid, Treat Disease or Treat Poison, Sing	Alchemy, Cult Lore, First Aid, Plant Lore, Treat Disease, Treat Poison, Worship
Daka Fal	Speak Other Language (Spiritspeech), Spirit Combat, Sing	Cult Lore, Speak (Spiritspeech), Spirit Combat, Spirit Lore, Worship (Ancestors)
Eiritha	Understand Herd Beasts, Herd, Sing	1H Axe, Animal Lore, Herd, Homeland Lore (local), Plant Lore, Understand Herd Beasts, Worship
Engizi	Boat, Speak Other Language (Boatspeech), Swim	Boat, Cult Lore, River Lore, Speak (Boatspeech), Swim
Ernalda	Dance, Animal Lore or Plant Lore, Sing, Speak Other Language (Earthtongue)	Animal Lore, Dance, Cult Lore, Farm, First Aid, Insight (human), Orate, Plant Lore, Worship
Eurmal	Dodge, Fast Talk, Charm	Charm, Conceal, Cult Lore, Dodge, Fast Talk, Sleight, Worship
Foundchild	Track, Peaceful Cut, Sing	Devise, Hide, Missile Weapon, Move Quietly, Peaceful Cut, Scan, Survival, Track, Worship
Humakt	1H Sword, Other Weapon, Intimidate	1H Sword, 2H Sword, Battle, Craft (Bronze or Iron), Cult Lore, First Aid, Scan, Sense Assassin, Worship
Issaries	Bargain, Speak Other Language (Tradetalk), Sing	Bargain, Cult Lore, Customs, Evaluate, Orate, Speak Own/Speak Other Language (any), Speak (Tradetalk), Worship
Lhankor Mhy	Read/Write (any), Lore (any), Sing	Alchemy, Cult Lore, Evaluate, Lore (any), Read/Write (any), Worship
Maran Gor	1H Axe or Mace, Dance, Intimidate, Speak Other Language (Earthtongue)	Climb, Cult Lore, Dance, 1H Axe, 1H Mace, Scan, Throw, Worship
Odayla	Track, Peaceful Cut, Sing	Climb, Hide, Missile Weapon, Move Quietly, Peaceful Cut, Scan, Survival, Track, Worship
Orlanth	Orate, Speak Other Language (Stormspeech), Sing, any sword, Dance	1H Sword, Battle, Cult Lore, Farm, Herd, Orate, Scan, Sing, Speak (Stormspeech), Worship
Seven Mothers	Speak Other Language (New Pelorian), Read/Write (New Pelorian), Sing	Conceal, Cult Lore, Insight (Human), Listen, Lunar Empire Lore, 1H Sword (Kopis), Read/Write (New Pelorian), Scan, Speak (New Pelorian), Worship
Storm Bull	Cultural Weapon, Sense Chaos, Intimidate	Battle, Cult Lore, Cultural Weapons, Ride, Scan, Sense Chaos, Track, Understand Herd Beast, Worship
Waha	Peaceful Cut, Spirit Combat, Sing	Cult Lore, Peaceful Cut, Ride, Spirit Combat, Survival, Tribal Weapon, Worship
Yelm	Ride, Speak Other Language (Firespeech), Sing	Bow, Cult Lore, Ride (Horse), Speak (Firespeech), Worship
Yelmalio	Celestial Lore, Speak Other Language (Firespeech), Sing	Battle, Bow, Celestial Lore, Cult Lore, Listen, 1H Long Speak, Pike, Scan, Search, Speak (Firespeech), Worship
Yinkin	Speak Other Language (Beastspeech), Track	Charm, Climb, Hide, Move Quietly, Scan, Speak (Beastspeech), Survival, Track, Worship

[PhilHibbs]

Correct, and not a discrepancy. Babeester Gor cultists are very intimidating, for example. It's a skill that they naturally tend to acquire, but it is not a skill that the cult values and rewards. So they get the skill, but it is not a "cult skill" for the purposes of advancement.

I also allow the skills from the cult section to be chosen for the +20/+15 bonus.

Edited June 11, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[Sumath]

That makes sense. I can imagine skills like Sing and Intimidate being developed through communal practice and demeanour rather than through formal instruction. Speak Other Language could be picked up colloquially (if it's the lingua franca in the temple) or through language lessons.

[Imryn]

I noticed the discrepancies as well, but assumed that it was a deliberate mechanism to steer starter adventurers into developing a more rounded range of skills.

[M Helsdon]

'Sing' as a cult skill provides some insight to the nature of the worship ceremonies of the cult and hints that some cult spells and rites have to be accompanied by singing (or chanting). 

[davecake]

11 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

hints that some cult spells and rites have to be accompanied by singing (or chanting). 

Or that they are usually accompanied by singing - it may not be a necessity, but simply a practice. I think, for example, that many Ernalda ceremonies involve singing, and it is a very common ceremonial method for them, but I don't think that means their spells require it, or (as it shows in the skill lists) priestesses are required to be good at singing (just like many many Christian churches). It may even be that while the congregation always sings, their singing is to augment the dance, which in turn is not required but simply the chosen method of ceremonial magic enhancement - which would still mean an initiate gets a lot of practice singing! 

Where singing is required to cast a spell it is usually directly specified (eg Comfort Song, Tree Chopping Song). I think singing well is not required for the magic to work, in most cases. 

It can give us plenty of cultural detail though, especially about the details between lay member/initiate ceremonies, vs inner mysteries. Yinkin lay members learn about cats, but the inner mysteries are about becoming (and being good at) being a cat. Yelmalio lay members sing hymns and learn the sacred language and about the skies - not everyone is expected to be part of the warrior culture. Most cults that require the Peaceful Cut sing it, and value singing. Even Lhankor Mhy and Issaries use singing in their ceremonies, though it seemingly has nothing to do with the inner mysteries of the cults. The Argan Argar cult outer mysteries are basically Darktongue language classes (which actually makes a lot of sense). And so on. 

[Imryn]

I think singing is probably a part of a bronze age persons general life, not just religious ceremonies - I'm thinking work songs and chants and just general entertainment.

[Austin]

On 6/11/2019 at 1:35 AM, PhilHibbs said:

Correct, and not a discrepancy. Babeester Gor cultists are very intimidating, for example. It's a skill that they naturally tend to acquire, but it is not a skill that the cult values and rewards. So they get the skill, but it is not a "cult skill" for the purposes of advancement.

I agree with this. The Gor sisters are freaky. This was more something I noticed and figured could be of interest to discuss.

That being said, these are skills described on p.73 as "starting skills taught to [the cult's] members" which implies to me that they ought to be skills the cult values in the sense that they're intentionally teaching it rather than amorphously acquiring it (like Christians learning to sing, kinda, as pointed out above).

Though the notion of new Gor initiates sitting in a classroom learning to glare appropriately does bring a smile to my face...

[davecake]

2 minutes ago, Crel said:

Though the notion of new Gor initiates sitting in a classroom learning to glare appropriately does bring a smile to my face...

Maybe it is kind of like a haka? In earth cult ceremonies they have to ritually stomp, threaten, glare and look scary?  

[Kloster]

54 minutes ago, Imryn said:

I think singing is probably a part of a bronze age persons general life, not just religious ceremonies - I'm thinking work songs and chants and just general entertainment.

In fact, this was still the case far after bronze aged finished. Up to the begining of 20th century, all human activities that required a regular rythm were guided by more or less 'ritual' songs. The 'Volga Boatmen' is a famous example. The first cinematographers (The Lumiere brothers ones) were singing 'Sambre et Meuse' to keep the rythm, and numerous songs were (and in some cases still are) used to teach alphabet and numbering (Does Ein Zwei Polizei, Drei Vier Offizier, .. raise some memories?).

[PhilHibbs]

32 minutes ago, Imryn said:

I think singing is probably a part of a bronze age persons general life, not just religious ceremonies - I'm thinking work songs and chants and just general entertainment.

That would be figured into the skill base chance, then. Some cults generally involve more singing than others, so for example maybe Ernaldans do more singing than Humakti.

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

That would be figured into the skill base chance, then. Some cults generally involve more singing than others, so for example maybe Ernaldans do more singing than Humakti.

"I let my sword do all the singing..."

[Bryon1187]

On 6/12/2019 at 4:16 AM, Crel said:

That being said, these are skills described on p.73 as "starting skills taught to [the cult's] members" which implies to me that they ought to be skills the cult values in the sense that they're intentionally teaching it rather than amorphously acquiring it (like Christians learning to sing, kinda, as pointed out above).

I  noticed the same thing with Earthtounge and Ernalda initiates.  Hmmm

[Ian Absentia]

On 6/12/2019 at 1:19 AM, davecake said:

Maybe it is kind of like a haka? In earth cult ceremonies they have to ritually stomp, threaten, glare and look scary?  

I'd assumed that "instruction" in the skill of Intimidation involved enculturation in a general bellicose attitude (like in much of sports culture, say, boxing or American-rules football), but the haka, and any number of cross-cultural equivalents coinciding with ritual combat, is a very specific and purposeful example.  Particularly if they're emulating the attitude and postures of their goddess(es), I reckon that's exactly what the followers of the Gors are doing.

!i!

[Joerg]

On 6/12/2019 at 10:16 AM, Crel said:

they ought to be skills the cult values in the sense that they're intentionally teaching it rather than amorphously acquiring it (like Christians learning to sing, kinda, as pointed out above).

Christians learning to kinda sing... from my experience. While there are churches where the communities can carry a tune, they should consider themselves lucky. There are many people who are enthusiastic singers but at the same time really bad at it, and then there are people who don't have the confidence to sing the tunes correctly out loud for fear of clashing with the unholy mess those enthusiasts make out of their miscarriages of those tunes.

But then, song, dance, or other ritual activities serve to enhance the participants' experience of the worship and sense of unity (if not with the deity, then with the other worshipers). These skills aren't about auditioning for a big stage.

[Cgeist7]

On 6/11/2019 at 2:35 AM, PhilHibbs said:

I also allow the skills from the cult section to be chosen for the +20/+15 bonus.

Interesting. I read it the other way (add bonuses to the Cult skills that get bonuses in the character creation chapter). 

Was this clarified somewhere?

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, Cgeist7 said:

Interesting. I read it the other way (add bonuses to the Cult skills that get bonuses in the character creation chapter). 

Was this clarified somewhere?

The rules say that you pick skill that get cult bonuses. I would also, in addition, allow skills from the cult section to be chosen.

[Bill the barbarian]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

But then, song, dance, or other ritual activities serve to enhance the participants' experience of the worship and sense of unity (if not with the deity, then with the other worshipers). These skills aren't about auditioning for a big stage.

And they can augment magic and skills too!

[g33k]

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

Christians learning to kinda sing... from my experience. While there are churches where the communities can carry a tune, they should consider themselves lucky. There are many people who are enthusiastic singers but at the same time really bad at it, and then there are people who don't have the confidence to sing the tunes correctly out loud for fear of clashing with the unholy mess those enthusiasts make out of their miscarriages of those tunes.

In these situations I call out, "please, everybody -- agree on ONE key to sing in!  I'll cover all the others, and hopefully y'all will drown me out!'

 

(edit:  Sorry, Bill.  I know how much music means to you; I am strictly an appreciator.  I couldn't carry a tune in a bucket if the bucket were hermetically sealed and duct-taped to my hand)

Edited October 9, 2019 by g33k
with apologies

[Jeff]

9 hours ago, Cgeist7 said:

Interesting. I read it the other way (add bonuses to the Cult skills that get bonuses in the character creation chapter). 

Was this clarified somewhere?

You are reading it correctly. Cults have plenty of skills that are associated with being a member that are not part of becoming a Rune master.

[Jimmie]

Sorry to revive this thread, but I’m confused about an issue that’s discussed here. From what list can the additional +20/+15 cult starting skill bonuses (as referenced on p. 73) be applied?

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Jimmie said:

Sorry to revive this thread, but I’m confused about an issue that’s discussed here. From what list can the additional +20/+15 cult starting skill bonuses (as referenced on p. 73) be applied?

I think officially it's just the ones in the character creation cult section, but I'd allow any cult skill.

[Akhôrahil]

I realized that half my players had thought that when I said "cult skills", I referred to those they get from start, not the ones in the cult description. 

I thought this design is asking for that kind of misunderstanding.

[GAZZA]

What surprised me was how few cults grant any sort of Read/Write. In RQ3 that was a standard Initiate occupation skill and, often, a requirement for Priest status. I'm not by any means suggesting this is wrong - heck, I can see why you don't want Storm Khans running around quoting whoever the Gloranthan equivalent of Shakespeare and P G Wodehouse are - but it did surprise me as a change (even somewhat more civilised deities like Yelm don't give it as a cult skill - you need to be in a specifically knowledge type cult such as LM).

It has meant that when my group were signing the Lunar documents to be able to register themselves to be allowed to go into the Big Rubble and hunt for the gorp geyser that they all just marked it with an X and had to take the Lunars' word for it as to what it said; similarly with the contract they just signed with Duke Raus. I wonder if that was the case back in RQ2 days when these supplements were published.

[Kloster]

Yes. Read/Write skills are much more restricted now with RQG. For me, it made sense to have at least the priests of most cults to be able to read their sacred texts, even if badly and slowly. The mercenary contracts (of Borderlands, for ex.) are another matter. I think RQ2 authors didn't think especially about the matter.