Jeff's FB notes on Kallyr

[jajagappa]

Some useful notes from Jeff I thought I'd get cross-posted here on Kallyr: FB Kallyr Starbrow notes

Notes on Kallyr Starbrow for the Homeland Book:

Dark Season 1625, Kallyr is acclaimed Prince. In some areas she has a lot of support, in others, not much at all. She didn't liberate the Colymar, Lismelder, Locaem, or Balmyr tribes. She's got no backing among the Pol-joni or other Praxians. but she has deep support among the Kheldon, Culbrea, Aranwyth, Sambari, and I think the Cinsina. That's where she draws her companions from.
When she is acclaimed, she needs a Ring who she trusts and who can work with her to do what she thinks needs to be done. And so she draws on companions and kin, as well as some friendly clans and tribes.

Randella and Insterid Fire Eyes are kin from her own clan, the Black Rock. A few thoughts on them - the Black Rock are a leading clan of the Kheldon, for as we know Ernaldinni Wolfkiller was on the Kheldon Ring when Sartar came to the land. They are largely matrilineal, and have lands around Sacred Top and Lambnet Fort. They of course also have homes inside Boldhome - the Kheldon are probably the most urbanised of all the tribes. They are a small tribe of four clans, surrounded by sacred hills and wealthy off Boldhome. Think of them like the Phocians of Ancient Greece.
Insterid is a Yelmalio cultist who is a maternal cousin of Kallyr. She's been the loyal bodyguard of Kallyr since the Batlle of Boldhome. Rendella is also a kinswoman - a trained scribe who joined the spirit society of Oakfed, and is drawn into Kallyr's Sky focus early on - probably as early as 1605, when Kallyr first quested for her star, back when she was 21 (a starting RQG character!). So you basically have three kinswomen - Kallyr, Insterid, and Rendella. This makes them a nice inverse of the wandering male kinsmen so common in stories.

Which btw brings us to an interesting point - Kallyr's Sky fascination. She's figured out the maxim As Above, So Below. In many ways, she would have made a good 2nd Age Dara Happan. Her quests are all based on a sky map that has been put together by herself, Randella, and Insterid over the decades. Of course Kallyr has Celestial Lore at 85%+ - but her Orlanth Cult Lore is much lower. That by the way is why she doesn't use the LBQ Ring. Umath was a Sky entity and that is what she is more comfortable with.
Orngerin is from the Greenhaft clan of the Cinsina (but were Culbrea until after Starbrow's Rebellion). He showed up with warriors to support Kallyr in the Rebellion and has been her chief lieutenant since then. He's a Wind Lord, and got his nickname from his ability to "hold fast" onto an enemy in battle, giving Kallyr time to hit them with everything she has in reserve. If I were Ivartha Wolfskinner, I'd be watching this guy. Especially once Kallyr puts him in charge of Jonstown.

Ernaldesta is an Earth Priestess of the Culbrea. She's not part of the Chan Dynasty that rules the Clearwine Earth Temple - Beneva Chan was down-right hostile towards Kallyr Starbrow. The Chans view Starbrow as an ambitious interloper. Ernaldesta has supported Starbrow since the beginning, and now gets to reap the reward of that support.
Elmalandti is a Storm Voice of the Culbrea Tribe. He's the lover of a river nymph, and is now installed as the high priest of the Boldhome Air temple.

As for friendly tribal kings, Kallyr enjoys the strong support of the Cinsina, Culbrea, Telmori, Aranwyth, and Sambari leaders. So that is Ivartha Skinner, Ranulf of the Culbrea, and whoever are the leaders of the Telmori, Aranwyth, and Sambari. Jonat Trollbane is probably the Aranyth leader. And the Ducks support her.

Opponents include the Colymar - in particular the Chans and Leika. Leika knows Kallyr, having been in exile with her. Both were lieutenants of King Broyan, but Leika stayed and fought at Pennel Ford, while Kallyr was involved in her Sky World Boat Quest. Leika was there when Broyan was killed by Lunar sorcery, while Kallyr was involved in the Dragonrise plot (which horrified both Leika and Kallyr). Leika shares her family's hostility towards Kallyr, and views her as an overly-ambitious rival. As the leader of the largest and most powerful tribe in Sartar, Leika views Kallyr as a peer with fewer resources than herself.

The Chans (Erenava and Erannina, as well as the Ernaldori clan) dislike Kallyr for a variety of reasons, all going back to 1613. They blame Kallyr for the rebellion that resulted in their exile.
The Pol-Joni are largely hostile to Kallyr's claims, as they already have thrown their support behind Argrath White Bull. The Malani are deeply suspicious as well, fearing the Lunar reprisal (remember Larnste's Table is in their lands after all).

Kallyr is a divisive figure among the Volsaxi. Some want her to claim King Broyan's mantle and take the Sword and Helm, while others blame her for not being present when Broyan was assassinated.
But in the end, Kallyr's biggest enemy is herself. She is proud, haughty, and volatile, and early goes into fits of shouting and accusations. Her loyalty to the nation of Sartar is unquestionable, but she will not allow it to ruined by fools and cowards. Although many of her outbursts are for dramatic effect, her haughty and unapproachable personality makes it difficult for her to work with strangers - people must earn her trust. As a result, she draws on those she knows and trusts - an increasingly narrow circle.

... Another thought is that Kallyr represents a more parochial and tribal aspect of Orlanth - and actually comes out of the Orlanth Thunderous cult. Her approach is Sky-oriented, and surprisingly conservative in its approach (with the exception of her Pole Star connection, which is both unsettling and cosmologically harmonious).
Argrath comes out of the Orlanth Adventurous tradition and is anything but conservative or parochial. His life in many ways mirrors Orlanth's myths. This may help to explain why he succeeded in the LBQ and Kallyr did not. Or it may not.

...

Q: What happens to the "Star" after Kallyr dies?

A: It returns to the heavens. The Starbrow is a minor star manifest as a bright light on Kallyr's forehead. Her allied spirit is also her Hero Soul, which powers her Heroquest Gifts. The star can lead her (or her soul) to the Pole Star at any time. When she dies, it returns to the Celestial Realm.

 

[Bill the barbarian]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Some useful notes from Jeff I thought I'd get cross-posted here on Kallyr: FB Kallyr Starbrow notes

 

Thank you, I can not support Zuckerberg at this point in time. so yer doing me a great service!

Edited August 20, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[Jape_Vicho]

I'm not sure if a question in such an old post will get an answer but I wonder how did Kallyr manage to be in the good side of both the Cisina and Culbrea and of the Wolfrunners. Aren't they at war and hate each other's guts?

[jajagappa]

12 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said:

but I wonder how did Kallyr manage to be in the good side of both the Cisina and Culbrea and of the Wolfrunners. Aren't they at war and hate each other's guts?

The Telmori due to the fact that Kallyr is heir to Sartar.

For the Culbrea, one of her key supporters is Orngerin who hails from that tribe and has many connections there.

As for the Cinsina, less clear given their opposition to the Telmori (and dislike of the Culbrea).  

[ZedAlpha]

no wonder she lost to the Lunars, while Argrath succeeds: you need a lot  of weird-ass allies to beat the Even Weirder-Ass Empire at its own game, and she was unwilling to bend to the winds of change. So she shattered.

[FungusColombicus]

4 minutes ago, ZedAlpha said:

no wonder she lost to the Lunars, while Argrath succeeds: you need a lot  of weird-ass allies to beat the Even Weirder-Ass Empire at its own game, and she was unwilling to bend to the winds of change. So she shattered.

That and the plain unpleasantness of the Colimar againts her...

[Grievous]

36 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

The Telmori due to the fact that Kallyr is heir to Sartar.

For the Culbrea, one of her key supporters is Orngerin who hails from that tribe and has many connections there.

As for the Cinsina, less clear given their opposition to the Telmori (and dislike of the Culbrea).  

Orngerin's clan is in the Cinsina (since 1613), though. Of course, this might actually change, too.  

[Eff]

1 hour ago, ZedAlpha said:

no wonder she lost to the Lunars, while Argrath succeeds: you need a lot  of weird-ass allies to beat the Even Weirder-Ass Empire at its own game, and she was unwilling to bend to the winds of change. So she shattered.

To be fair, she had some interesting mythical connections, what with all her star-related motifs, potentially direct involvement in the raising of the Boat Planet, etc.. Hypothetically, she could have leaned into that further and dived straight into astral Orlanth, the mysteries of the Many Suns, and possibly attempted to wrest the concept of the Moon Storm away from the Lunar Empire. But she didn't, and probably wouldn't have had that much more success if she did, just because she was dealing with a large heap of Circumstances. 

By the same token, I do think Argrath is only able to introduce so much radicalism because Kallyr had brutally demonstrated the old ways were no longer sufficient. 

Now, as for the alternate timeline where Kallyr leans hard into being Jar-eel's anime rival, look for that to be released in its full 654-page, Kentaro Miura- and Akiko Morishima-illustrated glory on February 31st, 2027. 

[Akhôrahil]

”Umath was a Sky entity”

I’m not sure I followed that... wouldn’t he be Air, not Sky?

[Eff]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

”Umath was a Sky entity”

I’m not sure I followed that... wouldn’t he be Air, not Sky?

Originally, Umath was a planetary entity. He then created the Middle Air as his own domain by separating Aether and Gata, or by dismembering himself in the way the dragons do, or by simply being so infuriated at the prospect of eternal servitude to the Emperor that his rebelliousness reshaped the world. But in origin, he was a thing in the sky, called Entekos by the Emperor. I think it's possible Orlanth's Ring is the shattered parts of his planetary body, since Dara Happans call it the Broken Planet.

[dumuzid]

Orlanth's Ring is a separate celestial body, Entekos is one of the eight regular planets that move along the Sunpath.  Her path marks the boundary between the Middle and Upper Airs according to the Guide.

[Eff]

11 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

Orlanth's Ring is a separate celestial body, Entekos is one of the eight regular planets that move along the Sunpath.  Her path marks the boundary between the Middle and Upper Airs according to the Guide.

The Entekos of the Sunpath planet is a separate divine entity and clearly marked out as such in the Glorious ReAscent. (And that planet is also associated with Dendara, the more obscure deity Moskalf, and is generally marked as related to the Earth cults- its Vithelan association is with a goddess of feasting.)

[aumshantih]

1 hour ago, Eff said:

 astral Orlanth, the mysteries of the Many Suns, and possibly attempted to wrest the concept of the Moon Storm away from the Lunar Empire.

Could you elaborate more on any of these?

[Eff]

1 minute ago, aumshantih said:

Could you elaborate more on any of these?

astral Orlanth- Orlanth has a shape in the Sky, of course, the Broken Planet, but at points during the God Time he seems to have been the overall sovereign entity of the Sky as a whole- against Tyram the Sky Tyrant, even Dayzatar can do nothing but withdraw from the world, but Orlanth is able to reassert the proper shape of the Sky with his thunderbolts. And of course, if we accept that the Little/Cold Suns are a single deity, Orlanth also establishes dominion over Antirius by defeating Yelmalio/bring Elmal in from the dark, which would seem to make him the celestial emperor in one very important respect. Now, almost all of this is not elaborated in the standard sources, so we can assume that it's hidden knowledge in contemporary Glorantha, and that someone wanting to play around with the boundaries between Sky and Air would need to do some digging to discover this.

Many Suns- Another event that lies on the fringes of our sources is the War of the Many Suns, which appears to have taken place after the Flood, and which prompts a central question: what defines a Sun? Is there only one Sun, or can there be many? We have, of course, the Blue Moon here, which is also referred to as the Water Sun in Six Ages. We have Sedenya the Turner identified as a wannabe Sun by Plentonius. We have the mysterious behaviors of the many Little Sun deities. We have Polaris and Ourania, who become the preeminent deities of the Sky after Lightfore disappears and Dayzatar descends after him. Now, the Emperor of Dara Happa has his authority because he is the living representation of the Sun. If there are multiple Suns, there can be multiple Emperors, and suddenly a great deal of the magic the Red Emperor uses to hold the core of the Lunar Empire together weakens substantially...

Moon Storm- This is the overarching goal of many in the Lunar Empire. The Moon can produce, via the Young Elementals, a Moon Sky, a Moon Dark, a Moon Sea, and a Moon Earth. The Young Elementals did not reach the stage of the spontaneous emergence of their own Umath equivalent. So the Storm remains defiant, outside the power of the Red Moon, refusing to acknowledge that while Umath set the Sky Dome to rocking, it is Sedenya the Turner, embodiment of Balance, who keeps it moving regularly and smoothly. It is therefore necessary to produce, like Hon-Eeel and Hwarin Dalthippa produced Lunar Earth and Lunar Water (and the Red Goddess herself unveiled Lunar Sky during the Four Arrows of Light, and possibly it was Jakaleel the Witch who showed Lunar Dark) Lunar Air or the Moon Storm, in order to bring the universe into harmony and allow Orlanth to acknowledge Sedenya's proper place in the universe.

Note that a Moon Wind does show up in King of Sartar, near the end of Argrath's Saga...

Anyways, if Kallyr had wrested that away, she would have been able to negotiate from more of a position of strength, as holder of something deeply precious to the Lunars. .

[Akhôrahil]

6 hours ago, Eff said:

Originally, Umath was a planetary entity. He then created the Middle Air as his own domain by separating Aether and Gata, or by dismembering himself in the way the dragons do, or by simply being so infuriated at the prospect of eternal servitude to the Emperor that his rebelliousness reshaped the world. But in origin, he was a thing in the sky, called Entekos by the Emperor. I think it's possible Orlanth's Ring is the shattered parts of his planetary body, since Dara Happans call it the Broken Planet.

This is some Dara Happan myth, then? In the Orlanthi version, the Birth of Umath is the separation of Earth and Sky, though?

Of course, Kallyr has every opportunity to pick up on more Sky-centric myths...

Edited February 5, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Leingod]

On 2/4/2021 at 9:49 PM, Akhôrahil said:

This is some Dara Happan myth, then? In the Orlanthi version, the Birth of Umath is the separation of Earth and Sky, though?

Of course, Kallyr has every opportunity to pick up on more Sky-centric myths...

Actually, most accounts of Umath presented in The Book of Heortling Mythology 1.) Place the separation of Earth and Sky after his birth, after the Emperor denies him a place in the world, and 2.) Repeatedly bring up his movements through the Sky (as the "Storm Gate"), which disrupts the other bodies up there and forces them off course until Shargash kills him, which actually causes further damage. "Umath's Movements," on page 28, makes this especially clear:

Quote

•  Makestina  rushes  towards  Yelm  with  the  news,  and  the Emperor is so angered he devours his son.

•  Jernedeus  follows  at  a  distance,  but  while  watching  Umath ignores his own progress and crashes off the east end of world.

• Derdurnus spins to watch, and goes spinning off the edge of the world.

• Zatora follows Umath at a great distance through his circle (later see Zator, below).

• Kargzant follows Umath, circling behind and low.

•  Jagrekriand  is  struck  directly  by  Umath,  and  thrusts  the  invader  onward  and  follows.  Umath  is  fatally  wounded and wobbles around the sky, sinking lower. Jagrekriand moves inside of Umath’s path, protecting the   Golden   City.   They   fight   with   missiles,   and   eventually  Umath  wavers,  and  then  crashes  down  in  the far north.

• Therados dodges up and out of the way.

•  Deumalos  drops  “like  a  rock”  to  dodge  the  coming  Umath, and is gone.

•  Zator  goes  into  the  Pit  and  is  never  seen  again.  The  first myriad of stars comes out.

•  Umath  crashes  upon  North  Camp.  This  starts  the  tilting    north-south    Dome    Movement.    It    goes    northward  first,  because  the  Pillar  there  is  broken,  until it is pushed back even harder by Kalikos.

•  The  sons  of  Umath  rise  out  of  the  ruined  North  Camp,  now  called  the  Storm  Camp,  bearing  the  weapons  of  their  dead  father.  Unknown  to  them,  a  Dragon pursues.

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by Leingod

[Joerg]

There is a general overlap between Air and Sky.

The "Lower Sky" is something that may describe the areas where the Sky Dome may interact with the Outer World, where it alternates between visibility and time in the Underworld.

In the Middle World, the Sky has been removed from the Earth, with Storm in between. Storm is present all the way up to the star-spangled sky dome. When Orlanth's Ring leaves the Sky Dome, it might even walk the backside, exposed to Dayzatar's light, but Storm doesn't reach all the way to the outermost dome.

The Middle Sky is where the planets wander and where the moon hangs. This is also the Middle Air, the realm above the surface air.

On 2/5/2021 at 12:11 AM, Akhôrahil said:

”Umath was a Sky entity”

I’m not sure I followed that... wouldn’t he be Air, not Sky?

Umath did not start out as a sky entity. While he was another son of the Primal Sky, he was born to the Earth, and then pushed his father's dome(s) up (and presumably his mother's cube down) to make room for himself. That did not make him a sky entity.

That changed when Umath entered the Middle Sky through what became known as Stormgate, an imperfection in the sky also known as "the Pit". Umath came in in a great spiral, as can be seen in the Copper Tablets, and his interaction with the Planetary Sons of Yelm changed the sky forever. It was Umath's arrival and that brought forth the star-bedecked sky dome, alongside the exit of Zator who entered "the Pit". All the stars emerged from Stormgate, including Pole Star and Ourania, the children of Dayzatar. You might call Umath the midwife of the stars.

While the ascent of Umath was stopped by Shargash, and then led to a mutual tumble and crash into the Northern Pillar, the fact that Umath cccupied the Sky remains written into the fabric of Gloranthan myth. None of the other celestial bodies that Umath encountered when entering the Sky did ultimately remain in the sky for the remainder of the Gods Age, either. Even Lightfore and Shargash disappeared, according to Yuthuppan Star Lore.

Unlike the surface world, Chaos never got a solid foothold in the Sky, with Orlanth defending it. A few pieces of the sky are known to have fallen to the surface, like Selon Mountain in the western Mislari chain or the island of Churanpur which I think is identical to Trowjang (its separate appearance in the God Learner mythical map is a mapping error similar to the Heron Hegemony - remember, the map is not the territory!).

What exactly does Orlanth's Ring stand for?

Umath never completed his ascension to the center of the Celestial City (which wasn't even visible in the sky when Umath entered). The four rebels appearing in Jar-eel's question "were the rebel gods liberated" in Prince of Sartar all have their own stellar bodies: the moon for Verithurusa, the red planet for Shargash, Artia for the Bat, 

[French Desperate WindChild]

Having seen the last white bull campaign episode (s2 e1), I have a question about Jeff description of windlords in Boldhome:

A lot of people hate Kallyr because the rebellion when other love Kallyr thanks to the rebellion

What do people reproach Kallyr for the rebellion ? Is it just because she lost or because her behaviour, her decisions , .. what was wrong from their perspective ?

Same for those who love her ? Because she tried ? because a lot of lunars were killed ?

Or everything is only loyalty and politic => you are from this tribe you love her, you are from that one you hate her ?

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

What do people reproach Kallyr for the rebellion ? Is it just because she lost or because her behaviour, her decisions , .. what was wrong from their perspective ?

People hate Kallyr for the same reason people hate Field Marshal Haig - they both got a lot of people killed.

 

[Leingod]

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Having seen the last white bull campaign episode (s2 e1), I have a question about Jeff description of windlords in Boldhome:

A lot of people hate Kallyr because the rebellion when other love Kallyr thanks to the rebellion

What do people reproach Kallyr for the rebellion ? Is it just because she lost or because her behaviour, her decisions , .. what was wrong from their perspective ?

Same for those who love her ? Because she tried ? because a lot of lunars were killed ?

Or everything is only loyalty and politic => you are from this tribe you love her, you are from that one you hate her ?

Well, obviously pro-Lunar Sartarites aren't going to be fans of Kallyr. Those who are more on the fence about it might resent her because they felt like things got worse in Sartar as a result of her rebellion, or because they lost family or friends as a result of it. Even of those who hate the Lunars, some don't like Kallyr because, well, she lost. She talked big, made a lot of grand promises, and then got a bunch of people killed and fully intends to do it all over again. It's easy to guess why some might not appreciate that, even if they also want a free Sartar. Some of them might not necessarily dislike her, but just question her ability to actually deliver on her promises. She's failed already, after all.

And of course at least some of them (*cough* Leika) don't much like Kallyr because they want to be the figure everyone gathers around looking to become Prince of Sartar and don't appreciate her hogging the spotlight.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Leingod

[jajagappa]

2 minutes ago, Leingod said:

Even of those who hate the Lunars, some don't like Kallyr because, well, she lost. She talked big, made a lot of grand promises, and then got a bunch of people killed and fully intends to do it all over again.

And there are those who simply find Kallyr to be arrogant and unwilling to compromise her goals, ambitions, and principles. 

On the other hand, there are those who see Kallyr as someone willing to stand up to the Lunars, and determined to see Sartar as free once again.

Personality traits are a big factor both for and against.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

People hate Kallyr for the same reason people hate Field Marshal Haig - they both got a lot of people killed.

 

True.  And hardly anybody is going to get killed by Argrath.  Or Harrek.  Everybody will love them.

(In case you can't tell, this is sarcastic)

[Rodney Dangerduck]

7 minutes ago, Leingod said:

some don't like Kallyr because, well, she lost

They are ignorant fools.  In the end, she wins.  Dying heroically at the Battle of Queens, leaving behind a Free Sartar.

"If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story"

[Leingod]

5 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

They are ignorant fools.  In the end, she wins.  Dying heroically at the Battle of Queens, leaving behind a Free Sartar.

"If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story"

A Free Sartar ripe to be turned into the foundation of Argrath's empire, presumably just yet another conquering boot trodding everything underfoot and calling its naked imperialism glorious and just. I'd like to think the irony wouldn't be lost on her.

[French Desperate WindChild]

8 hours ago, metcalph said:

People hate Kallyr for the same reason people hate Field Marshal Haig - they both got a lot of people killed.

I didn't know this man but, I have the french equivalent and understand the meaning

 

thanks all

so what I understand :

those who hate her :

• she did not try to preserve her warriors life, compared to other war leaders
• of course she was a @!##{
• she lost
• she had political rivals

 

those who love her :

• she tried
• she fought
• Sartar fought bravely

 

but do we have any "event", "anecdote", meeting with other leaders or speech or battle, where she demonstraded something (good or not) ?

For example how did she fight ? among her warriors, in the first line, behind everyone to see battle field and decide how to move, (no judgement, there are pro and cons for any position)

To explain what I m looking for, I think about the movie Henry V, with Kenneth Branagh , and how is described Henry V. I find particulary relevent this trailer

 

I m not discussing of how Shakespeare or Branagh views  fits with history, just about story telling,and there I consider them great (words for one, acting for the second) but that is not the point here, of course