source material from the perspective of someone tainted by chaos?

[Ali the Helering]

6 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I don't remember any chaotic god who is able to be a good guy (from a glorantha perspective). And the only "civilized / organized" chaotic gods I remember, are focused on society destruction. Not building another one, just destroy this one.

Nysalor?  Vivamort?

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I don't remember any chaotic god who is able to be a good guy (from a glorantha perspective). And the only "civilized / organized" chaotic gods I remember, are focused on society destruction. Not building another one, just destroy this one.

Besides the Red Goddess, others that might be considered are:  Ompalam, Gark the Calm, and perhaps Vivamort (e.g. the Vampire Kings of Tanisor).

[simonh]

Mere riffraff compared to the Mistress of Time.

[French Desperate WindChild]

7 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Sorry that so much type is being devoted to not answering your question, that is how we are around here. Ask a question and we will all ignore what you ask and riff on our own thoughts. Bear in mind I am not trying to escape guilt here, I did that exact same thing. Gads. Thankfully jajagappa will always come thorough with a great answer! soltakss might well as well. 

when you try to understand chaos, you cannot hope anything else than chaos

2 hours ago, simonh said:

Sedenya?

 

2 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Nysalor?  Vivamort?

 

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Besides the Red Goddess, others that might be considered are:  Ompalam, Gark the Calm, and perhaps Vivamort (e.g. the Vampire Kings of Tanisor).

 

Am I wrong to say that Sedenya, Nysalor and Vivamort are not Chaos gods but gloranthan gods who tried to obtain something from chaos (power or no-death) ? Tried to obtain and tried to keep not full chaotic.

Don't know a lot about Ompalam and Gark. Dit they came from Chaos or where tainted (oups blessed) by Chaos. Maybe they are gods from chaos but blessed (oups tainted) by Law

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by French Desperate WindChild

[g33k]

7 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

...

(I'll admit the old table in the RQG Bestiary p.89 gave a 1% chance, but this is superseded by the revised chart in the Red Book of Magic p.25, which removed that result).

...

Is there an erratum for the Bestiary on the matter?
(If not, then I assert that each chart is still canonical, each in its context)

[Nick Brooke]

3 minutes ago, g33k said:

(If not, then I assert that each chart is still canonical, each in its context)

Never change, man. You do you.

[soltakss]

23 hours ago, littlewitchmaus said:

so i'm curious- has anyone written any material from rhe perspective of folks who just happen to have born into association with chaos?

We have written Secrets of Dorastor, which gives a Chaotic viewpoint for many things.

Currently, we are working through Holiday Dorastor and have produced The Temple of Heads and will soon publish Spider Woods, with more to come.

I like to look at things from different viewpoints and Chaos is an interesting one to look at. Not all Chaots are ravening psychopaths and not all are misunderstood good guys. They tend to be evil simply because they are often forced down that path by having to join Chaotic Cults simply by being cursed by Chaos.

[Ali the Helering]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Am I wrong to say that Sedenya, Nysalor and Vivamort are not Chaos gods but gloranthan gods who tried to obtain something from chaos (power or no-death) ? Tried to obtain and tried to keep not full chaotic.

If they are not Chaos gods, I don't understand your definition. Do you only class Wakboth and Kajabor and surviving fragments (Cacodemon) as Chaos gods?

If you mean they didn't come from out of the Void, the same would be true of Thed, Ragnaglar, Malia, Tien, Atyar, Krjalk, Telmor etc etc.  I think you are trying to find a rationale that fits your definition, rather than questioning your assumptions.

[g33k]

2 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Never change, man. You do you.

Chaos is chaotic.

I find attempts to pin it down, define it precisely, limit it to (for example)  "the results of this d100 chart"  to be exactly antithetical to its limitless potential.

But -- as you say -- that's just me.
YGWV.

[French Desperate WindChild]

58 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

If they are not Chaos gods, I don't understand your definition.

My definition is a chaos god is a god dedicated to chaos

If Nysalor Illumination implies that illuminates become chaotic, that means the few about illumination I understood was wrong (why not, I m not satisfied with my understanding).

I agree that my answer about Vivamort is a little bit confused.

1 hour ago, Ali the Helering said:

I think you are trying to find a rationale that fits your definition, rather than questioning your assumptions.

 I just follow what the french version of chaos pantheon gave me years ago :

Quote

La structure du monde se fissura et, surgissant du vide, les dieux du Chaos s'y engouffrèrent. Ils se répandirent dans le monde, détruisant, corrompant et souillant sa quasi totalité.

so from google

"The structure of the world cracked and, rising from the void, the Chaos gods rushed into it. They spread throughout the world, destroying, corrupting and defiling almost all of it."

I don't know if it fits with the english canon but at least it does not explain that chaos gods try to do something good for Glorantha

 

[littlewitchmaus]

(to be clear, my use of the word 'tainted' is simply in relation to the literature i've seen on the subject and not meant to imply any inherent 'wrongness' and i do see the notion of 'taint' and 'blessing' as synonymous, in this regard.)

[Ali the Helering]

27 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

"The structure of the world cracked and, rising from the void, the Chaos gods rushed into it. They spread throughout the world, destroying, corrupting and defiling almost all of it."

I don't know if it fits with the english canon but at least it does not explain that chaos gods try to do something good for Glorantha

 

The Orlanthi and the Uz certainly had cause to identify Nysalor as chaotic, but he was a great builder of society.  Vivamort creates society by way of the vampire's dependence upon a stable group of prey.  Thanatar creates a society based on stolen knowledge.  Krarsht is the soul of corrupt bureaucracy.

Creating society is not the same as 'doing something good'.  

[metcalph]

12 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I don't remember any chaotic god who is able to be a good guy (from a glorantha perspective). And the only "civilized / organized" chaotic gods I remember, are focused on society destruction. Not building another one, just destroy this one.

Ompalam.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

"The structure of the world cracked and, rising from the void, the Chaos gods rushed into it. They spread throughout the world, destroying, corrupting and defiling almost all of it."

I don't know if it fits with the english canon but at least it does not explain that chaos gods try to do something good for Glorantha

Some things to keep in mind (and this depends a bit on the Creation myths)

1) the world was FORMED out of Chaos - without Chaos, there is no world to be

2) the dragons make no particular distinctions about Chaos, and you might consider that their utuma rituals return them to the Void (i.e. Chaos)

3) the dissolution of the world back towards Chaos may simply be inevitable - Things Fall Apart.  Direct use of Chaos may hasten this, but it still occurs. 

4) However, by returning to the Primal Chaos (e.g. the Primal Plasma), the world can be rebuilt/remade.  This is one of the principle aspects of the Red Moon (and Nysalor) - by incorporating Chaos, new Creation can occur by taking advantage of the raw Stuff from which the world is made.  Without this, you can never move beyond the elements, forms, and powers that are already in existence/defined.

 

[Scotty]

23 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Show me where on the current Chaotic Features table it says you can receive two chaos features.

(I'll admit the old table in the RQG Bestiary p.89 gave a 1% chance, but this is superseded by the revised chart in the Red Book of Magic p.25, which removed that result).

Following this up in case there was a copy/paste error. Both entries are identical, but it did flag a different typo:

RGB, page 89

RBM, page 25

 

[Nick Brooke]

45 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Following this up in case there was a copy/paste error. Both entries are identical, but it did flag a different typo:

RGB, page 89

RBM, page 25

 

Oh, you changed it again. Cool beans.

 

[Eff]

One fruitful way of understanding Chaos's dual role as fruitful void before everything, "Predark" and desolate wreckage of space and time, "Wasteworld", is to think about Chaos as potential. Chaos contains within it every possible way of being, all the myriad ways of existence. However, the Anthropic Principle holds in Glorantha. There are only a narrow range of these potentialities which are compatible with life and death. 

So Chaos is necessary for every act of creation, because creation requires potentiality. But creation transforms the Chaos into other things in the process, and letting the raw potentiality spill everywhere creates the Zone from Roadside Picnic, the Southern Reach from Annihilation, etc. 

(Now go back and read the myth about Umath and Harana Ilor and ask yourself whether "Howling Void" really is a distinct entity from Umath, the spiral wind with no center...) 

[Joerg]

14 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Some things to keep in mind (and this depends a bit on the Creation myths)

1) the world was FORMED out of Chaos - without Chaos, there is no world to be

The world was formed out of the Void, which is all potential - including destructive.

Chaos is an incursion of the Void into Creation, losing most of its potential but retaining the mutation and annihilation aspects.  This apparently happened as side effects of the Creation process, leading to what the Orlanthi call Predark, and which describes early Chaos opponents as far back as the early Golden Age.

 

14 hours ago, jajagappa said:

2) the dragons make no particular distinctions about Chaos, and you might consider that their utuma rituals return them to the Void (i.e. Chaos)

Dragons appear to regard all of Creation as temporary in nature. It isn't quite clear whether their utuma returns them to the Void, to Void-adjacent realms, or whether it takes them to and through the source.

Weirdly, the only dragons known to have committed unaided utuma are Ouroboros and Obduran the Flyer. Other dragons like Aroka or Sh'harkarzeel did accept Orlanth's assistance in undergoing utuma. Waertag and his heirs appear to have assisted quite a bit, too, although it isn't clear whether leaving a city ship behind hampers ascension.

 

14 hours ago, jajagappa said:

3) the dissolution of the world back towards Chaos may simply be inevitable - Things Fall Apart.  Direct use of Chaos may hasten this, but it still occurs. 

This has become so since the conception of Time. Whether it is still Chaos when the world has disappeared is another question. It might just implode.

 

14 hours ago, jajagappa said:

4) However, by returning to the Primal Chaos (e.g. the Primal Plasma), the world can be rebuilt/remade.  This is one of the principle aspects of the Red Moon (and Nysalor) - by incorporating Chaos, new Creation can occur by taking advantage of the raw Stuff from which the world is made.  Without this, you can never move beyond the elements, forms, and powers that are already in existence/defined.

I wouldn't phrase it that way. The Chaosium funnels creative potential into the world, separating it from its antithesis which is left outside of the cosmos. The Pseudocosmic Egg event with its creation of the Young Elementals may have been something else. Possibly an undeveloped twin of Time?

 

Primal Chaos is the cosmic Gorp - pure and irreversible dissolution into the blob. For a while, it may be used to creatively destroy only things that "don't look like the elephant". But when the elephant has emerged from the block of stone, the blob still needs feeding, and if only the elephant remains, then that was it for the elephant.

[Sir_Godspeed]

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

Chaos is an incursion of the Void into Creation, losing most of its potential but retaining the mutation and annihilation aspects.  This apparently happened as side effects of the Creation process, leading to what the Orlanthi call Predark, and which describes early Chaos opponents as far back as the early Golden Age.

 

I get your point, and that's probably how a lot of people in-universe see it, if they're aware of both terms, but I think it's basically like distinguishing between the fire in your hearth and the fire burning down the house. Essentially, they're both fire, but context shapes what they do and how we view it. 

I've made this particular comparison before: Chaos/Void is a bit like the radiation from the sun in the RW. Without it life would be impossible and no living thing on Earth could exist. But the sun itself is so utterly, terrifyingly, incomprehensibly dangerous and all-destroying that it could snuff out all life in an instant if parameters change only infinitesimally. And it WILL do so... eventually. 

[g33k]

12 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Oh, you changed it again. Cool beans.

<shrugs>
wotchergonnado?

They are the Chaosium...

 

[AlHazred]

My favorite quote is an excerpt from The Book of Drastic Resolutions. Don't know that it still fits canonical material, but it reads well, like something an insane chaos cultist would write.

Quote

The Devil is the Howling Void -- all chaos voids in Glorantha are The Devil. Each hole is a part of the Devil -- like individual leaks in a boat, yet all let in the same Ocean. The Devil is the Ocean. The personification of the Devil is a mistake or misconception resulting from ignorance. Wakboth is the Guise of the Devil -- the insulation between the Devil and Glorantha. He was the ultimate scab formed by the world to protect itself from the invasion of chaos.

Thed is called the Mother of the Devil, which is to say that she opened the hole into the Void. Her broo followers recreate this act when they worship her, creating other holes into chaos to sacrifice their foes and gain new allies.

Rashoran knew this secret, and tried to teach it to the gods of the world; but only a few understood it. The Unholy Trio killed him when they thought they had all his knowledge. They planned to reduce the world to its primal essence and then remake it in their own image, but they failed because they did not understand what Rashoran had tried to teach them. Thus, they were doomed to ultimate failure: The Devil remade them even as they made Wakboth, and they became their own nightmares.

Only I understand the terrible secret of Rashoran, and this has brought me to the sill of sanity. We are all chaos, for life itself does not exist. We are all Wakboth, fighting against ourself to save the non-existent world. I am Wakboth, I am The Devil, and I write this book to show you that you too are The Devil, if only you could realize it.

 

[soltakss]

On 6/22/2021 at 6:44 PM, Ali the Helering said:

If they are not Chaos gods, I don't understand your definition. Do you only class Wakboth and Kajabor and surviving fragments (Cacodemon) as Chaos gods?

My definition is that a Deity is Chaotic if it has the Chaos Rune.

 

[soltakss]

On 6/22/2021 at 10:08 AM, Nick Brooke said:

Paranoid nonsense. Show me where on the current Chaotic Features table it says you can receive two chaos features.

 

[Ali the Helering]

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

My definition is that a Deity is Chaotic if it has the Chaos Rune.

 

In which case, according to Cults of Terror, that does include Vivamort, Nysalor, and Thanatar.  While Krarsht lacks the rune, Primal Chaos is an associate cult, and she does grant Defend against Law and Face Law, which certainly implies something!  Bagog also has the rune, and has tribes ruled by queens, which strikes me as a social structure.

I think 'good for Glorantha' can all to easily be slanted as 'good for the cultures I like'.  

[David Scott]

There are also borderline cases such as Mallia, who has the Chaos rune when worshipped by Broos, but when propitiated doesn't. See Cults of Terror and Cults of Glorantha Gen Con Preview:

Quote

Mallia is associated with the Runes of Death and Darkness, her foundations and heritage. Where she is worshipped by broos she also is associated with the Chaos Rune.