Was there a time the Lunars could have Stopped Argrath?

[EricW]

Was there a time when Argrath was vulnerable, when a different decision by Lunars could have ended his rebellion or permanently destroyed him? What would have happened if they had?

[Ian_W]

He had to do a fairly desperate Lightbringers Quest to bring back Sheng Seleris, who did most of the actual destroying of the Lunar Empire for him.

 

He also had massive gregged-rune related plot armour regarding the Sartarites being 100% fine with bringing draconic mysticism back to Dragon Pass, after the last time it happened led to a destruction of the Orlanthi religion in the area in favour of dragon worship, followed by the killing of all humans in Dragon Pass by dragons.

 

Never the less, once the Praxian warlord brings back dragons, and dragon worship is installed in Sun County, the Sartarites are 'yay !' ... if they had noped out at this point, things get harder for him.

 

But everyone's favorite 1.5 dimensional cardboard cutout had a lot of plot armor, so he just rolled through it all.

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, EricW said:

Was there a time when Argrath was vulnerable, when a different decision by Lunars could have ended his rebellion or permanently destroyed him?

No. There’s no stopping a player character with a lenient GM. 🙂

Edited December 19, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Eff]

I have good reason to believe that there is a potion derivable from such plants as the beans of the Glycine genus, the yam, the oil of a palm tree's kernel, etc. which would be a most effective thing against Prince Argrath, one which would be irresistible in alchymical preparation. Such a potion might well drive him to an overindulgence that would immiserate some aspects of the Dragonspear.

This would perhaps be necessary, but not sufficient. Other such necessary-but-not sufficient aspects of Anti-Argrath Action (the other AAA) would include a tactical use of tantric liberation against Annstad of Dunstop to impair Argrath's infiltration of the Lunar Way, hiding the Red Moon briefly to hijack Argrath's oath, and possibly diverting influences like Mularik and Gold-Gotti. 

[Jeff]

What is the point of the question? To me this is absolutely no different from asking "could the Red Goddess have been stopped? or "Could Sartar have been stopped." The answer is of course, but we'd have a different setting.

Prince Argrath is hard-wired into the setting, just like the Red Emperor is. He's actually been there as long as the Lunar Empire, the Red Emperor, Harrek the Berserk, and the Kingdom of Sartar, and he's older than Orlanth or Yelm - and his name is older still. In short, he's one of the main iconic characters of the setting. 

 

[soltakss]

12 hours ago, EricW said:

Was there a time when Argrath was vulnerable, when a different decision by Lunars could have ended his rebellion or permanently destroyed him?

Yes, at any time.

Garrath Sharpsword could have been killed when in the Big Rubble, in New Pavis or in Prax.

Lunars could have killed him when on the Giant Cradle.

Lunar Assassins could have killed him in Alone.

He could have died during any of the battles with the Lunars.

12 hours ago, EricW said:

What would have happened if they had?

The rebellion could have continued under someone else's leadership, or could have died like Starbrow's Rebellion.

I prefer things like this to be played out at the gaming table, to be honest.

[David Scott]

I've beaten Argrath quite a few times in Dragon Pass. like all wargames, it requires some thinking though.

[Ian_W]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

What is the point of the question? To me this is absolutely no different from asking "could the Red Goddess have been stopped? or "Could Sartar have been stopped." The answer is of course, but we'd have a different setting.

Prince Argrath is hard-wired into the setting, just like the Red Emperor is. He's actually been there as long as the Lunar Empire, the Red Emperor, Harrek the Berserk, and the Kingdom of Sartar, and he's older than Orlanth or Yelm - and his name is older still. In short, he's one of the main iconic characters of the setting. 

 

Argrath might be hard-wired into the setting.

Argrath the GM's Pet that defeats every threat, ignores every restriction of the setting and has an overwhelming victory against the future of Glorantha isn't.

 

If Glorantha wins the Hero Wars against Argrath and the Dragons don't get to murder Glorantha's magic, then we get much more interesting futures.

 

And it's not just the Lunars that have reasons to want him stopped.

[Sir_Godspeed]

Complaining about Argrath seems a bit like complaining about how Alexander the Great is a Mary Sue or whatever.

[DreadDomain]

Personally I thought it would have been interesting to hear about when Argrath was the most vulnerable, how the Lunar could have taken advantage of said vulnerability, how it would have unfolded and if successful in removing him, what would have been potential consequences (Lunars win! is not the only possible outcome).

"Argrath is hard-wired to the setting!" is by far the least interesting, most defensive, least creative answer possible.

I was not aware Your Glorantha Will Vary had been cancelled (I am sure it hasn't).

Sure Argrath and his deeds are important to the setting but talking about where it could have gone wrong makes the character, and his exploits, more interesting, not less. 

Argrath is a polarizing figure both in Glorantha and on these forums it would seem.

[John Biles]

3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Complaining about Argrath seems a bit like complaining about how Alexander the Great is a Mary Sue or whatever.

The history of Glorantha is not real-world history which is dead and gone and can't be changed.

Every GM has every right to have Argath step on a rake and accidentally kill himself whenever it's convenient.

2 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

Personally I thought it would have been interesting to hear about when Argrath was the most vulnerable, how the Lunar could have taken advantage of said vulnerability, how it would have unfolded and if successful in removing him, what would have been potential consequences (Lunars win! is not the only possible outcome).

"Argrath is hard-wired to the setting!" is by far the least interesting, most defensive, least creative answer possible.

I was not aware Your Glorantha Will Vary had been cancelled (I am sure it hasn't).

Sure Argrath and his deeds are important to the setting but talking about where it could have gone wrong makes the character, and his exploits, more interesting, not less. 

Argrath is a polarizing figure both in Glorantha and on these forums it would seem.

Argath is most vulnerable in his early days when he doesn't have a lot of power, but conversely, the Lunars don't know he matters at that point.

After he takes Pavis is probably when he's most vulnerable - he's now prominent enough for them to care and they have incentive to kill him.

 

[DreadDomain]

1 hour ago, John Biles said:

Argath is most vulnerable in his early days when he doesn't have a lot of power, but conversely, the Lunars don't know he matters at that point.

After he takes Pavis is probably when he's most vulnerable - he's now prominent enough for them to care and they have incentive to kill him.

Would the liberation of Pavis be the event where Lunar would really start paying attention to him? Is it the moment when they realized he was a threat? Probably.

It makes sense that defending the cradle and then disappearing with Harrek for a few years probably did not put him very high on the list of imperial priorities. At the time the Empire was still  on the up and up in the region anyway. That changed between 1622 and 1625, when the Empire had to deal with many disruptive events (Auroch Hill, the Old Earth Alliance, the Wolf Pirate fleet, the dragonrise, etc...) involving various factions or leaders (Broyan, Kallyr, Samastina, Harrek, Argrath, etc...) so it may not have been clear before the liberation of Pavis that he was a real threat.

9 hours ago, soltakss said:

Lunar Assassins could have killed him in Alone.

This would be a real possibility.

 

All of this makes me realize, it's been too long since I read King of Sartar, I forgot most of it!

Edited December 20, 2021 by DreadDomain

[dumuzid]

1 hour ago, John Biles said:

Every GM has every right to have Argath step on a rake and accidentally kill himself whenever it's convenient.

At my table the 'canon' is that when Argrath led the Praxians into Dragon Pass in 1627 he found the Sartar brazier already lit--by Queen Leika of the  Colymar, who had was freshly acclaimed Prince of Sartar.  Argrath wrestled with himself, consulted his advisers, and in the end consented to a marriage alliance with Leika, making him the Prince-consort (or Princess) of Sartar.

[Joerg]

Argrath has already died at least one time without that stopping him, in his meet-cute with Harrek. Whoever is behind him won't let him off his oath that easily.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Argrath should be most vulnerable at a time when the PCs are somehow the only ones available (or alive) to help.  Or harm, if the PCs are Lunars.

[Nick Brooke]

23 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Argrath should be most vulnerable at a time when the PCs are somehow the only ones available (or alive) to help.  Or harm, if the PCs are Lunars.

This. All of it. We don’t know who’s playing in your game, @EricW, so none of us is particularly well-placed to advise you. But Rodney has nailed the only thing that matters. Your Glorantha Will Vary.

[Darius West]

On 12/19/2021 at 3:37 PM, EricW said:

Was there a time when Argrath was vulnerable, when a different decision by Lunars could have ended his rebellion or permanently destroyed him? What would have happened if they had?

According to KoS, there is a point where the Lunars manage to completely roll back the Sartarites to Prax, even retaking New Pavis, but the Lunars still manage to lose the war.  Of course, if someone had assassinated Garrath Sharpsword in New Pavis on 1616, well, Argrath means liberator, so was he the only one who could fill those shoes?  As to what would happen to him, well, the Lunars would likely try to send him to a Lunar Hell, but Argrath had already liberated Sheng Seleris from such a place, and while I can't quite see Sheng returning the favor, there are others who had raided into the Lunar Hells by this point, so the HQ paths there were open.

[Sir_Godspeed]

On 12/20/2021 at 1:36 AM, John Biles said:

The history of Glorantha is not real-world history which is dead and gone and can't be changed.

Every GM has every right to have Argath step on a rake and accidentally kill himself whenever it's convenient.

Sure. Just do it. I don't see the point in going on and on about it.