Who has True (weapon) rune spell?

[PhilHibbs]

And Crush, Pain Tooth, Seal Wound, Strike, not to mention the Trance spells. There's plenty of variety in weapon-enhancing rune magic!

[davecake]

I definitely think Babs is not missing out by having Slash as her damage enhancing spell, and while Crush is maybe not quite as good, it’s still nothing to complain about. 
Yelmalio, of course, is absolutely missing out, and is at the point where it’s kind of inexplicable how bad a warrior cult it is. Literally worse weapon enhancing magic than not being in any cult at all - they get no weapon enhancing magic offered, not even half price Bladesharp or Speedart, but lose access to Fireblade and FireArrow, both which would be incredibly useful. 
In full Pike and Shield mode they are at least decent opponents when in a shield wall, but otherwise they are pretty terrible! Lack of FireArrow reduces their effectiveness as skirmishes and archers, 1H spears are pretty terrible weapons (every other 1H weapon has a standard 1d8+1 version, but short spears do only 1d6 +1, and for some inexplicable reason the standard 1h hoplite spear (doru) appears not to exist in Glorantha, despite all those hoplites). And shield walls are much easier to break in Glorantha, with Demoralise and such. 
Notably Dara Happan hoplites do a lot better - they have access to True Spear via Hastatus (an associated cult of Polaris and others), and Fireblade. And have better archers too, with access to FireArrow, and Sureshot via Sagittus. 

So Yelmalios reputation as formidable troops relies, it seems, largely on no one else having learnt how to fight in a pike shield wall. Though it’s true that they are going to have a higher percentage of weapon masters due to Gifts, and the advantage of Gifts in war is that they do not require expenditure of magic points or Rune Points, so are always there. Still, Yelmalio always has been, and it seems still is, uniquely terrible at being a warrior god. And their only unique combat useful spell is Sunbright, which is very minor unless fighting trolls or undead, and they can only Enchant Gold, one of the least useful rune metals. 
Orlanth is probably the next weakest of the major warrior gods as far as weapon magic goes, and has excellent access to spirit magic, with half price Bladesharp and Strength, as well as excellent defensive, ranged attack and battlefield mobility magic, and can Enchant Iron. 

[JustAnotherVingan]

7 minutes ago, davecake said:

I definitely think Babs is not missing out by having Slash as her damage enhancing spell, and while Crush is maybe not quite as good, it’s still nothing to complain about. 
Yelmalio, of course, is absolutely missing out, and is at the point where it’s kind of inexplicable how bad a warrior cult it is. Literally worse weapon enhancing magic than not being in any cult at all - they get no weapon enhancing magic offered, not even half price Bladesharp or Speedart, but lose access to Fireblade and FireArrow, both which would be incredibly useful. 
In full Pike and Shield mode they are at least decent opponents when in a shield wall, but otherwise they are pretty terrible! Lack of FireArrow reduces their effectiveness as skirmishes and archers, 1H spears are pretty terrible weapons (every other 1H weapon has a standard 1d8+1 version, but short spears do only 1d6 +1, and for some inexplicable reason the standard 1h hoplite spear (doru) appears not to exist in Glorantha, despite all those hoplites). And shield walls are much easier to break in Glorantha, with Demoralise and such. 
Notably Dara Happan hoplites do a lot better - they have access to True Spear via Hastatus (an associated cult of Polaris and others), and Fireblade. And have better archers too, with access to FireArrow, and Sureshot via Sagittus. 

So Yelmalios reputation as formidable troops relies, it seems, largely on no one else having learnt how to fight in a pike shield wall. Though it’s true that they are going to have a higher percentage of weapon masters due to Gifts, and the advantage of Gifts in war is that they do not require expenditure of magic points or Rune Points, so are always there. Still, Yelmalio always has been, and it seems still is, uniquely terrible at being a warrior god. And their only unique combat useful spell is Sunbright, which is very minor unless fighting trolls or undead, and they can only Enchant Gold, one of the least useful rune metals. 
Orlanth is probably the next weakest of the major warrior gods as far as weapon magic goes, and has excellent access to spirit magic, with half price Bladesharp and Strength, as well as excellent defensive, ranged attack and battlefield mobility magic, and can Enchant Iron. 

Storm Bull's magic is nothing too spectacular either.

Face Chaos and Impede Chaos are only useful against Chaos obviously which leaves them with Berserker, Small Sylph and some decent spells from associated cults.

Better than Yelmalio but not as good for combat as Humakt or Babeestor Gor and lacking the range of spells Orlanth or Zorak Zoran have. 

[David Scott]

29 minutes ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

Storm Bull's magic is nothing too spectacular either.

Face Chaos and Impede Chaos are only useful against Chaos obviously which leaves them with Berserker, Small Sylph and some decent spells from associated cults.

Fortunately their role is Chaos Killer, The primary purpose of the Storm Bull is to prevent the rise of the Devil, or any associated form of Chaos.

[JustAnotherVingan]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Fortunately their role is Chaos Killer, The primary purpose of the Storm Bull is to prevent the rise of the Devil, or any associated form of Chaos.

True, but they are still going to get into fights against a variety of foes eg Lunar soldiers who aren't chaotic.

[davecake]

I think Storm Bull is fine. They are not particularly fearsome warriors (though they have decent spirit magic, and a few interesting tricks) - unless they use Berserk, which can be quite alarmingly effective even against non-Chaotic opponents, or are fighting Chaos, or both. And against Chaos they are very effective.

The spirits that a Storm Khan can have to support them (the Parts of the Bull) are nifty too - while the spells aren’t very powerful, they can cast spells even when the Storm Khan is Berserk. 

Of course Babeester Gor, and Zorak Zorak, both have access to a lot more magic as well as Berserk. But Storm Bull’s purpose is killing Chaos, and he is damn effective at that. 

[Godlearner]

Yelmalio - I believe it was stated before the Gregg wanted this cult specifically without good weapon enhancing magic. He wanted to see if people would play a cult for the "look and feel" as opposed to what they can get from it spell wise.

Orlanth - This one was always hard one, especially in the RG3. The really good spells were usually out of reach and single use, but at least there was no prohibitions on spirit spells as with Yelmalio  and they would make friends with an Issaries.

Storm Bull - another warrior cult without good weapon Rune spells, but as my GM once said: "Why would you want to make them more dangerous?". All of my Storm Bull characters consoled themselves with a few uses of Fear and Berserk

[Akhôrahil]

Berserk + Shield is going to be pretty decent even against non-Chaotics, I’m thinking.

[Akhôrahil]

2 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Yelmalio - I believe it was stated before the Gregg wanted this cult specifically without good weapon enhancing magic. He wanted to see if people would play a cult for the "look and feel" as opposed to what they can get from it spell wise.

Yelmalio really suffers under the RQG paradigm. It used to be that Rune Magic was far off but 90% in a weapon from a gift was a massive deal, but now that you have Rune Magic from start and can easily pick up 90% anyway…

[Godlearner]

5 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

It used to be that Rune Magic was far off but 90% in a weapon from a gift was a massive deal,

Yes, but even that was a random thing and if you did get it, there was a better chance of getting a killer geas to go with it.

[JRE]

I believe the strength of the Sun Dome Templars lies in two things that separate them from the typical orlanthi clan fyrd or Praxian raider band, and it is not magic. I see them more similar to the XVth century Swiss, professional soldiers by need, rather than inclination, rather than the unwieldy greek hoplites, supplying a reliable heavy infantry that is lacking among the armies that hire them.

- Training. Why is life so boring in the Sun Dome? Because they work, and train, and work some more. Your typical Yelmalian will be at a skill level closer to a weaponthane, though with much less useful magic. Working as mercenaries broadens also their experience.

- Morale. Resistance and your place in the file is everything. So they are much harder to break than the fickle orlanthi. Not critical at the skirmish level, but very important in bigger units.

That is why they are good as a unit, but can be beaten individually quite easily. It is a cult of soldiers, not warriors. Tactics will play a role, with heavily armored file leaders in the first rank, and increasingly less armored people with linothorax armor in the back. 

As a wargamer, your block of pikes most of the time are not engaged, as people prefer to maneuver around them, and they seldom can catch up any enemies, as they are the slowest. But they still play a big role, forming a rallying point, a strongpoint in the battle line, frightening enemy pursuers and sometimes earning their salary by grinding down the enemy's heavy infantry in a bloody attrition fight. 

What you really do not want is a templar believing he can beat that humakti champion one on one and leaving the formation. The Yelmalion solution to a humakti in a trance is to skewer him with 20 or 30 pikes. In the RW 5-6 pikes would be enough, but in Glorantha you need more punching power.

[JustAnotherVingan]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

I think Storm Bull is fine. They are not particularly fearsome warriors (though they have decent spirit magic, and a few interesting tricks) - unless they use Berserk, which can be quite alarmingly effective even against non-Chaotic opponents, or are fighting Chaos, or both. And against Chaos they are very effective.

The spirits that a Storm Khan can have to support them (the Parts of the Bull) are nifty too - while the spells aren’t very powerful, they can cast spells even when the Storm Khan is Berserk. 

Of course Babeester Gor, and Zorak Zorak, both have access to a lot more magic as well as Berserk. But Storm Bull’s purpose is killing Chaos, and he is damn effective at that. 

I agree they are fine as are. Probably the most popular "war" god amongst my players but if you're a minimaxer rather than a roleplayer they don't offer the most.

They are fun to play and being answerable only to yourself and the Bull as a Storm Kahn  is also appealing to players.

[French Desperate WindChild]

the point I always find weird :

 

players can choose their pc's god. They choose it with all the knowledge the GM and (players book) propose

spells, skills, geas, flavor, etc...

If I play a yelmalio, I know that would not be to have any divine "buff". It is interesting because as his god, his role is to lose, survive and finally save the society. Seems to me -at the basis level- more interesting than just be an humakti mercenary, paid to kill with success, but without challenge.

(Of course there are good humakti pc, not an issue, I m just speaking about the "root level" before any player enrichment)

If I play an orlanthi warrior, it would be more for the ranged options (including lighting, flight and tp) than my sword charge,

etc...

That's the GM's role  to build / adapt a campaign to allow even a trollkin-food pc to propose an interesting play.

 

Let the humakti be ambushed by bowmen or put the death machine in a situation where he has to choose between losing his honor and save his group, or losing his group and save his honor.

It is more interesting, from my perspective, than let the humakti be the only one to have fun in a close fight (aka best damage dealer, not my favourite fun by the way, even if there is, of course some gratification)

 

I have more concerns about a lankhoring scribe (issue to progress in the main archetype skills, less opportunity to even roll these skills) than to compare humakti versus stormbuller versus zorak zoran versus babs

 

 

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

lankhoring scribe (issue to progress in the main archetype skills, less opportunity to even roll these skills)

Sword Sages

[davecake]

2 hours ago, JRE said:

Morale. Resistance and your place in the file is everything. So they are much harder to break than the fickle orlanthi. Not critical at the skirmish level, but very important in bigger units.

Well, oddly enough - the Morale spell is the one that gives a unit amazing benefits from good morale. And Yelmalio doesn’t have it - Humakt does, though. And in RQG, Polaris (just to rub it in that Yelmalio doesn’t even come close to having the best hoplites, 

 

2 hours ago, JRE said:

That is why they are good as a unit, but can be beaten individually quite easily. It is a cult of soldiers, not warriors.

That’s the theory - but does it translate into practice well? 
 

2 hours ago, JRE said:

What you really do not want is a templar believing he can beat that humakti champion one on one and leaving the formation. The Yelmalion solution to a humakti in a trance is to skewer him with 20 or 30 pikes.

The problem with that theory is that Humakti also come in regiments - often of experienced mercenaries. With the Morale spell on them all. Throw a few javelins as they head in, Parry those pikes, that Sword leading them is there to break that shield wall…. and as soon as the Templar shield wall starts to fail it goes very badly for them. 

(I’ve actually run a fight with a Sword of Humakt and friends against Sun Dome Templars in formation. It did not go well for the Templars. Though Invictus was a tougher nut to crack). 
Similarly Templar shield walls against Orlanthi that Fly or Leap past them, trolls that hit hard enough to break through the wall, practically any other skirmish troops, etc.

Honestly, the only way it makes sense really is to assume the Yelmalions are using just as much magic as everyone, but mostly sticking to boring stuff like Healing and Repair, just spend it keeping the shield wall up as best you can - and even then it suffers from the problem that the Sun Domers are supposed to be elite, but Dara Happan hoplites like the Granite Phalanx are just better at hopliting in most ways. Morale spell, weapon enhancing magic, and backed up by better archers, and plenty of other cool magic.  

Even the other variants of Yelmalio, like Kargzant, are probably more effective - they at least might be able to be decent light cavalry. 
 

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

players can choose their pc's god. They choose it with all the knowledge the GM and (players book) propose

The issue is not that all cults should be the same, or have similar stories, or that you should only play the most effective - the issue is that the rules should reflect the fiction, and in the fiction Sun Dome Templars are supposed to be elite fighters among the most effective infantry around, and the rules make such a point of depowering them it’s now becoming a bit implausible. The rules don’t reflect the fiction well. 

 

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

If I play a yelmalio, I know that would not be to have any divine "buff". It is interesting because as his god, his role is to lose, survive and finally save the society

I’m running Sandheart right now, and it’s great fun, everyone is enjoying playing Yelmalions - but we are enjoying it because Yelmalio has, over the years, become among players the cult for a bit of light relief and fun low powered play. That shouldn’t really be what they are for! 
 

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Seems to me -at the basis level- more interesting than just be an humakti mercenary, paid to kill with success, but without challenge.

There is always challenge in RuneQuest! 

And Humakti, FWIW, are so much more easy to turn into rich role playing PCs! An inflexible code of honour, keeping their oaths above all, a code of duelling… the stuff writes itself - while Yelmalio really only works in Yelmalio centric campaigns (which as I said, tend to end up with a fair bit of comedy). 

And what you can’t do easily is run a game in which the Templars are tough grizzled veteran mercenaries, like they are supposed to be, because they just usually aren’t very good at it! 

[svensson]

Warrior cults tied to the Death rune. Babeester Gor, Storm Bull, Humakt, etc. Thanatar had it in RQ3 [True Garrote was UGLY]. Some cults tied to the Death rune DIDN'T have it in RQ3, and comparing who does and who doesn't gives a strong warrior cult bias.

[icebrand]

On 2/26/2022 at 3:35 PM, g33k said:

I'm having a hard time understanding how/why the Avenging Earth might NOT have True Axe ...

OTOH, ZZ is kinda patchwork, what with raising the dead, fire powers, etc...  I don't really see ZZ having the fixity of purpose to True anything at all.

MGF might suggest a high-grade combat magic like that "should" go to ZZ, but IMHO there are others more-suited to the god, and entirely adequate to the purpose (of making PC's wet themselves).

Because it's the special magic of humakt?

Because they have (used to?) Slash?

Why wouldn't humakt have great party and heal body?

Why would you play a humakti over a babeesterite then?

Why are people taking special, iconic spells and giving them to every other minor god that shouldn't have it?

/Rant

Edit: sword trance was a mistake, change my mind

Edited March 22, 2022 by icebrand

[icebrand]

On 2/26/2022 at 7:21 AM, soltakss said:

Kaarg used to get True Maul in Elder Secrets (I think)

Kyger Litor gets True Maul via Karrg, i can't remember if runelord (son of Karrg) only or free for all

[JRE]

Replying to David Cake on Humakt vs. Yelmalio, two short replies to avoid derailing the thread. I would not use Runequest to simulate any fight of more than a dozen people, and certainly not a large scale battle. And the Sun Dome Templars (the WB&R or Dragon Pass counter) represents roughly a thousand Yelmalio initiates with light sons, Wyter, priests and assorted support. To have an equivalent unit of Humakti you need all the Humakti in Dragon Pass, and I am sure no tribe chief or city will allow all their weaponthanes taken away, at least until Argrath starts to exploit and industrialize magic. 

I am sure we all agree that most Yelmalians suck at individual combat, and that the Sun Dome Templars are one of the best infantries in Dragon Pass. I still believe it is very compatible with the rules we have. 

[Dragon]

7 hours ago, davecake said:

Though if it is a loose Berserk equivalent, why does Babeester Gor get both? (Because they are awesome, that’s why)

Mythically, of course. When Babs killed all those people and Eurmal turned all their blood to alcohol...Babs wasn't doing it because she was in Axe Trance. She had gone Berserk. She must have used Axe Trance when she crossed weapons with Wakboth...because that fight didn't end with one side dead. QED.

[soltakss]

I love listening to Yelmalio fans bitterly lamenting how the Yelmalio Cult is screwed because everyone loves Humakt or the Orlanthi.

For refence, I played Shergar Sunhoof, a Centaur Yelmalian who never complained about Yelmalio's poor magic, he was too busy crushing them beneath his five hooves or biting them with his Spider Head.

[icebrand]

9 hours ago, JRE said:

 

Hahaha i used to run a quite high level rq3 campaign and BOY WAS BABY GOR BROKEN... Like an NPC priestess with a fraction of the skills and %s of a PC could fight them and it was even scarier than a zorak zorani... (Zorak zorani with 15 rune spells gave the humakti with 150 a run for the money, uz are epic).

Edit: misquoted i wanted to quote the post above sorry!!!

Edited March 23, 2022 by icebrand

[DreadDomain]

On 3/22/2022 at 7:32 PM, JustAnotherVingan said:

Storm Bull's magic is nothing too spectacular either.

As a war god, even if specialized with facing chaos, I agree his magic is a bit on the low side compared to say, Babs. However, I didn't want to turn him into a weapon specialist (weapon trance, slash, true weapon) and decided instead to focus on his Beast aspect rather than his Death aspect. Accordingly, I have added to the cult rune spells the equivalent of "Elk Strength" from the RboM. 

[g33k]

On 3/22/2022 at 12:52 PM, icebrand said:

Because it's the special magic of humakt?

Because they have (used to?) Slash?

Because  Axe is the sacred weapon of Earth,  and Babs is  the Earth Defender / Earth Avenger.

If there are non-Sword "True <Weapon>" spells floating round -- including True Axe -- then she's the only viable candidate for that one!  (fwiw, I'm pretty sure she has Slash in the RQG core book; but as per above, I think Babs should have  True Axe  over  Slash ).

 

On 3/22/2022 at 12:52 PM, icebrand said:

...

Why wouldn't humakt have great party and heal body?

Why would you play a humakti over a babeesterite then?

...

The God of Death is plenty badass in his own right (q.v. Sever Spirit) !  But spells like Heal Body are nothing to do with that.
I would play a Humakti over a B.Gorite (or a B.Gorite over a Humakti) for their different stories/orientations, not to minmax the magic loadout I carry.

[Scotty]

Please stick to the original subject, if you wish to discuss other topics please start a new thread.