Why does Argrath wipe out the Telmori?

[Eff]

44 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

@David Scott  Thanks for the link to Jeff's article on Well of Daliath.

While I realize that real life people must sometimes be pragmatic, and are flawed, IMO Jeff takes it too far.  Or, alternatively, some of the rules text, e.g. that Storm Bull Initiates are required to investigate any hints or rumors of Chaos personally, or that Orlanthi Wind Lords must fight it to kill it if possible, should be modified / toned down.  IMO, that would actually be a good thing.

e.g. I'd like to see more positive, aspirational material on achieving the Orlanth virtues.  Less bad poetry, and less strict "Thou shall" rules that are very often ignored.  

I have to admit, my eyebrows raised quite high at Telmori being barred from the Orlanth cult but the Orlanth cultists (or the god himself, it's not entirely clear to me) being willing to make use of the Telmori as inferiors. But as for the Storm Bull cult apparently only being held back from exterminating the Telmori due to their insufficient numbers, well... isn't that interesting? 

[Bren]

Regarding the timing of any demise of the Telmori, King of Sartar has a couple of relevant passages.

First, under the writeup for the Battle of Heroes:

Quote

 

  King Argrath would not tolerate the wolfmen’s attacks. He worked with all the priests and holy men who could do it, and they sniffed out their foes in the night and through dreams. They guided their men into battle, and sought the wolves through the most impossible lands.

  The fight against the wolfmen was arduous, and many good men died. But in the end Argrath was victorious. Afterwards, the tribe of the Wolf People was dispersed, and only bands of them were found anyplace, and then were hunted down. The human victors of Argrath’s battles against the wolfmen were called the Wolfskins, for they wore the pelts of their victims, and they were a very highly honored band of warriors wherever they were recognized.

 

Note that the battle is dated to 1628 and the discussion on the Telmori appears after the description of the battle and just before a marriage of King Argrath and the Feathered Horse Queen.

Second, the Events of My Life by Minaryth Blue has the following entry for the year 1629:

Quote

1629    Argrath marries Feathered Horse Queen and I get gifts from High King. We kill Dinacoli. Telmori promise revenge, quarrel with Argrath.

So any Argrath Telmori pogram would seem to occur after the Battle of Heroes, possibly in 1629.

I had always thought that the Wolf Runners unit in the Dragon Pass board game were the Telmori. But looking at the scenarios, that unit does not appear in scenario [18.3] ARGRATH'S RETURN or the two scenarios before it. The Wolf Runners are only available in three scenarios: [18.7] THE FULL GAME, [18.8] THE RISING OF TARSH, and [18.9] THE MARATHON GAME. It looks to me like the Wolf Runners probably are wearing werewolf cloaks from skinned Telmori.

[Dr. Devici]

2 hours ago, Eff said:

I have to admit, my eyebrows raised quite high at Telmori being barred from the Orlanth cult but the Orlanth cultists (or the god himself, it's not entirely clear to me) being willing to make use of the Telmori as inferiors. But as for the Storm Bull cult apparently only being held back from exterminating the Telmori due to their insufficient numbers, well... isn't that interesting? 

That bit about Orlanth is especially weird because shortly after it's mentioned that Orlanth judges people by their deeds and cannot sense chaos. That seems incongruous with the stated reason we don't have any Orlanthi-Telmori.

[Akhôrahil]

5 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Or they're too smart to sign up for his absurd crusade?

The only thing worse than being on Argrath’s side is not being on Argrath’s side?

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Dr. Devici said:

That bit about Orlanth is especially weird because shortly after it's mentioned that Orlanth judges people by their deeds and cannot sense chaos. That seems incongruous with the stated reason we don't have any Orlanthi-Telmori.

Doesn’t really matter what Orlanth thinks as long as the cult won’t admit them (as known Chaos-taintees). I think a lot of things in Glorantha (like CA Jains with brooms for bugs) make more sense if you consider that the cult might be a lot more strict than the god actually is.

[mfbrandi]

On 3/13/2023 at 8:15 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

But why does Argrath [wipe out the Telmori]?

I guess this can be looked at as “why them?” or as “why genocide?”. I won’t attempt to say why the Telmori were singled out: others have made a better stab at it than I could, and I don’t really feel like grubbing around looking for reasons to wipe out one group rather than another.

As for the other, I will attempt that — with the usual risk of being wrong and/or unpopular. I have a feeling that we are supposed to see Glorantha as a place with a very straightforward magical economy: sacrificing two chickens yields twice as much magical power as slitting the throat of one … and feeding grain to a hungry chicken gets you no power at all. (Possibly it is even grimmer than this, but this will do.) Also: more magical power = more mythical significance. Why? Because we are to think of myth as the actions of the gods — prayer POWered machines — rather than as stories?

Another way of looking at things might have the betrayal of a single unexceptional person — or a single act of compassion — as yielding as much magical power, as much mythical significance, as good a story as the skinning of an entire nation. But there is a current in Glorantha — presumably, not the only one, or we wouldn’t be here debating this — that says the bigger, the bloodier, the more revolting (wearing your victims’ skins) the better. In terms of entertaining us and “in world”.

So why would Argrath indulge in genocide? Because he is gathering magical power to remake the world — in his own image, presumably. Does this mean he is only “game mechanically” a hero? Not a bit of it — hero: a person admired for bravery, great achievements, or good qualities. It is very much or, not and.

Through the magic of selective quoting, I can maybe even make it seem like I am not the only one to have entertained these thoughts, that it is the standard model:

Quote

The Other Side refers to contact with the Godtime before time began, which is accessible to witness and to participate in, if you take enough drugs or concentrate enough on abstruse philosophy or chant for hours with sweaty like-minded people on a holy day or kill enough people or monsters to make a difference in terms of a god’s identity …

That’s why Glorantha is doomed, at about halfway through its 17th century of existence. Soon, from the time of play, the Hero Wars will overwhelm every culture and aggressive metaphysical experimentation will literally undo the fragile Compromise. The soft implication for the outcome is that the universe will be reborn in mundane terms, the Godtime will retreat into pure myth, and the magic and heroes we’ve played will be legends.

But legends aren’t trivial. What the new world will be like is shaped by the values and priorities that emerged during the Hero Wars. So it’s not about who wins, it’s about who speaks up and represents, and for what. — Ron Edwards, Why Glorantha?

Edited March 15, 2023 by mfbrandi
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[Dr. Devici]

31 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Doesn’t really matter what Orlanth thinks as long as the cult won’t admit them (as known Chaos-taintees). I think a lot of things in Glorantha (like CA Jains with brooms for bugs) make more sense if you consider that the cult might be a lot more strict than the god actually is.

And I'd be fully game for the local Orlanthi holy man talking big about freedom until people start exercising those freedoms to attempt things he doesn't like. But then, what about Sartar? He was the Orlanth Rex of an entire kingdom, and he happily made peace with the Telmori, made them a full tribe, and even married them into his bloodline, but then drew the line at initiating them into Orlanth? Why?

[Rodney Dangerduck]

7 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

So why would Argrath indulge in genocide? Because he is gathering magical power to remake the world

I can accept this, it's actually along the line of my original question, even if I expressed it poorly.  It at least makes Argrath rational, if still a monster.

What magical power did he gather?  I don't recall any stories about "After the defeat of the Telmori, Argrath grew to 10 feet tall and could shoot lighting out of his butt".

The Wolf runner chit from WBRM, whatever it's confusing history or much debated use, doesn't have very high numbers on it.

As for making the Cinsina and the Praxians "happy", yes, true.  But  wiping out a Tribe of Sartar sets a grim precedent.  Sending the Death Star to ~~Alderan~~, er, the Telmori, might make other tribes wonder if they are next.  This was pointed out by one of my PCs.

26 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

the cult might be a lot more strict than the god actually is

I don't buy this at all.  "The Gods are Real" is a constant Gloranthan refrain  (I sometimes find it annoying).  One can easily ask them. 

Divination:

Wind Priest: "Orlanth, why are Telmori forbidden?

Orlanth: "WTF?  If they breathe, are honorable and non-chaotic, welcome them" (That's about 10 words more or less)

p.s. bonus answer: "BTW, who is your High Priest?  He's gonna start itching and scratching."

 

[Eff]

2 hours ago, Dr. Devici said:

That bit about Orlanth is especially weird because shortly after it's mentioned that Orlanth judges people by their deeds and cannot sense chaos. That seems incongruous with the stated reason we don't have any Orlanthi-Telmori.

Yes, it is very incongruous. I actually had never really considered the question of "why don't Telmori initiate to Orlanth?" before that article, because it never seemed relevant- Telmori have such an unusual situation that the idea that they mostly stick with Telmor and sometimes go into "professional" cults like Issaries/CA/Lhankor Mhy and sometimes have embraced cults that offer a possible modification to the werewolf curse, like the Lunars in the immediate timeframe, always was my default.

But now I'm wondering just what's going on there.

[Eff]

24 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

As for making the Cinsina and the Praxians "happy", yes, true.  But  wiping out a Tribe of Sartar sets a grim precedent.  Sending the Death Star to ~~Alderan~~, er, the Telmori, might make other tribes wonder if they are next.  This was pointed out by one of my PCs.

You know, I think that you could run with this and the Free Army and make this whole incident part of an effort (by Argrath? by Argrath's supporters in Sartar?) to centralize Sartar and destroy the traditional tribal and city intermediaries and their independent power. Because nobody likes the Telmori and there's the whole "destroyed the Maboder" thing, they serve as the test case for setting up the authority of the Prince to destroy whole tribes as tribal governments. I doubt your game has done much if any groundwork to set this up, because it's a fairly specific thing derived from dull poli-sci books, but I thought of it and decided to say it for anyone to pick up and work with.

Separately, another option for "why do the Wolfrunners exist?" would be that the Prince of Sartar, for ritual reasons, needs to have Telmori bodyguards, and having people with flayed Telmori skins as part of his bodyguard is how Argrath takes care of that ritual reason. Again, bleak. Many of my contributions haven't been the most happy in this thread.

[John Biles]

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I can accept this, it's actually along the line of my original question, even if I expressed it poorly.  It at least makes Argrath rational, if still a monster.

Argath is the equivalent of Arkat and Arkat would shove anything into the meatgrinder to get an advantage.

 

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

As for making the Cinsina and the Praxians "happy", yes, true.  But  wiping out a Tribe of Sartar sets a grim precedent.  Sending the Death Star to ~~Alderan~~, er, the Telmori, might make other tribes wonder if they are next.  This was pointed out by one of my PCs.

Given the Telmori wiped out the Maboder, it can easily be depicted as justice for their crimes *and* everyone hates them.

4 hours ago, Dr. Devici said:

That bit about Orlanth is especially weird because shortly after it's mentioned that Orlanth judges people by their deeds and cannot sense chaos. That seems incongruous with the stated reason we don't have any Orlanthi-Telmori.

I can think of why Sartar would not want the Telemori initiating to Orlanth - the Telmori are Hsunchen and initiating to Orlanth basically would mean the beginning of the end of the Telmori and their special abilities.  Sartar created ways for groups to cooperate without losing their essential nature and the Telmori worship spirits and becoming Orlanthi means moving away from being Hsunchen.

 

[Bren]

3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

The Wolf runner chit from WBRM, whatever it's confusing history or much debated use, doesn't have very high numbers on it.

Actually it does have some high numbers. It's combat factor varies with the phase of the Red Moon ranging from a low of 3 to a high of 7 [3-4-5-7-6-5-3]. The average combat factor for other units in the Sartar Free Army is 3 and the maximum is 6. On 5 out of 7 days the Wolfrunners have an above average combat factor and on 2 out of 7 days their combat factor is at or above the maximum. Within the Glowline their combat factor is always 7, the highest combat factor of any unit (other than Harrek) in the entire Kingdom of Sartar.

For comparison, the unit representing the Colymar tribe, the largest tribe in Sartar, has a combat factor of 3.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

3 hours ago, John Biles said:

everyone hates them.

Maybe.  It's not clear to me that more distant Tribes, such as the Colymar, Locaem, and Lismelder, have any reason to hate the Telmori.  In fact, keeping the rival Cinsina tribe "busy" might be considered a good, or at least a neutral, thing by their more Machiavellian thinkers.

[metcalph]

I'm finding the theory being advanced that the Telmori could join the cult of Orlanth because the Orlanthi cannot sense their chaotic nature to be somewhat absurd.  There's a huge difference between not being able to sense the chaos of someone in front of you and having your chaotic nature exposed in an initiation ceremony.   For example:

Quote

Note: The Chaos Rune is taboo amongst the
Orlanthi and, if awakened during the adulthood
initiation rites, will almost certain result in you being
killed by your own clan

Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes p71

Whatever Sartar may have thought about them (Was he illuminated?  Was he wilfully blind?) is IMO unknowable and different people will have different theories about what he intended.  I think it easier just to say that Tarkalor used the Telmori as his Big Sticks whereas his successors, not having his heroic stature, resorted to using them to cow the tribes.  When the Lunars took over, everybody has bad memories of the Telmori.  

[Rodney Dangerduck]

11 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Whatever Sartar may have thought about them (Was he illuminated?  Was he wilfully blind?) is IMO unknowable

For our Glorantha, I'm going with "them" (the Telmori) aren't chaotic.

[DrGoth]

Just remember that KoS is written from in an in-Glorantha perspective - with all the subjectivity, errors and downright lying such documents involve

[radmonger]

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

For our Glorantha, I'm going with "them" (the Telmori) aren't chaotic.

I wouldn't say they are chaotic as individuals.

It is just that the practice of their traditional tribal religion has been corrupted by an external curse, such that those who practice it suffer chaotic effects. I don't think that Telmori who become, say, Humakti transform on wildsday.

Soul sight on a typical telmori werewolf would show they are infected by chaos, not inherently chaotic.

9 hours ago, Dr. Devici said:

But then, what about Sartar? He was the Orlanth Rex of an entire kingdom, and he happily made peace with the Telmori, made them a full tribe, and even married them into his bloodline, but then drew the line at initiating them into Orlanth? Why?

Because if they became Orlanthi, they would not be Telmori, and we would be asking 'why did Sartar genocide the Telmori?'

Having them able to become Sartarite without converting is why Sartar is a nation, and not just an Orlanthi tribal confederation. This is a new thing, as the various fully-assimilated tribes and clans with a hint of deer or whatever magic show. Argrath considered this novelty to be a mistake, and reverted it.

This is why he is unambiguously the villain of the setting, the final boss the players can only defeat in the last act.

[David Scott]

Here are a few of articles that may help explain Argrath's and the house of Sartar's relationship to the Telmori:

• Telmori Chaos Taint
• The Telmori
• The House of Sartar, Feathered Horse Queens, and Werewolves
• Sartar Telmori
• Defunct Sartar Tribes

[Eff]

6 hours ago, metcalph said:

I'm finding the theory being advanced that the Telmori could join the cult of Orlanth because the Orlanthi cannot sense their chaotic nature to be somewhat absurd.  There's a huge difference between not being able to sense the chaos of someone in front of you and having your chaotic nature exposed in an initiation ceremony.  

What theory? What people are reacting to is the statement that Orlanth only judges people on their deeds and yet simultaneously Telmori are banned from the cult due to being Chaotic/Chaos-tainted. So how do we reconcile these things together? Is it that Telmori failing to slit their own throats for being Chaos-tainted is sufficiently wicked of a deed to bar them from the cult?

[M Helsdon]

The Telmori in Sartar are longstanding enemies of the other tribes of Sartar; their Chaos taint and being werewolves each Wildday only exacerbates the conflict. Even if they were untainted, they would be outsiders to the Orlanthi tribes.

It's the old conflict between settled farmers and herders, and nomads, in this case hunter-gatherers for whom the crops and herds are there to be raided and predated. This is very different to the cattle raiding the Orlanthi perform amongst themselves.

The Temori are the natural enemies of the way of life of the majority of agrarian and pastoral Orlanth, Barntar, Ernalda worshipers in Sartar. Any adult Telmori will be recognized as such by their personal adornment, their Beast nature obvious, their deeds and way of life abhorred, making them at best unwelcome at any shrine or temple. Orlanthi hunters won't like them, as the Telmori are rivals, and rivals who in Beast form will hunt men, women, children....

Only Sartar and his dynasty befriended and allied with the Telmori. Argrath's use of the hostility of the Sartari tribes to the Telmori is suggestive that his dynastic claims are tenuous. His use of the Telmori as an enemy to be exterminated as a unifying force in binding the tribes together, under his rule, was very cynical. Add in to this that there were heirs of Sartar among the Telmori who were not assassinated by the Lunars, and his motives are even less pleasant. And when Lunar agents incite the already beleaguered Telmori into rebellion.....

Edited March 16, 2023 by M Helsdon

[mfbrandi]

11 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I can accept this, it's actually along the line of my original question, even if I expressed it poorly. It at least makes Argrath rational, if still a monster.

Oops — sorry. Didn’t mean to pass off your own idea to you!

Is pursuit of power — enough power to stand a chance of killing a Devil able to gobble up most of the gods in short order — usually all-that rational? Even if some aspect of the result is agreeable (a safer, thinner world), the whole enterprise is barking, no?

11 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

What magical power did he gather?  I don't recall any stories about "After the defeat of the Telmori, Argrath grew to 10 feet tall and could shoot lighting out of his butt".

I was thinking of storing it up, as in a battery. Taking down Wakboth is presumably not meant to be a small matter, if I have the Gloranthan way of looking at these things right. (I suspect that IRL myths measure power scales with a stretchy rubber ruler, but most RPGs and superhero comics not so much. As ever, I may be way off.)

12 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I don't buy [cults being stricter than gods about entrance requirements] at all. "The Gods are Real" is a constant Gloranthan refrain (I sometimes find it annoying). One can easily ask them.

The gods are “real”, but what kind of reality are they? Aren’t we often told that they lack free will — whatever that is — and aren’t we to imagine them as stuck in a Godtime loop “eternally” repeating their mythic deeds? Can they even “see” the world of Gloranthan mortals? I tend to think of a god as a vending machine attached to the game of Operation: if you are very careful, you can punch a hole into Godtime and extract a magical humerus or a cup of coffee that doesn’t taste of soup.

For the sake of your sanity, your Glorantha certainly should vary. What determines a god’s answer? Are their answers true and consistent? If they are, how hard do Gloranthans have to work to create religious schisms? I tend — foolishly, no doubt — to imagine that NPC diviners have ways of getting from (dictating to) the gods the answers they want: priest thinks “no” -> god says “no”. I don’t say this to preserve a notion of liberal, tolerant, politically correct gods with unfortunately nasty cults; I am just not sure “what the god thinks” even figures. If we were to look at the RQ2 Divination spell description …

Spoiler

This spell allows the character to ask a question of his god. The answer will usually be a short sentence of up to seven words, though it may, at the referee’s discretion, take the form of a vision.

The gods cannot see into the future, being bound by Time as the rest of Glorantha. The ritual takes 1 hour to perform, and must be done in a recognized holy place sacred to the god being questioned. The probability that a character will correctly read the signs (necessary in this ritual) given by the god in answer is POWx5 or less on D100. No one is perfect, so there is always the 5% chance (96-00 on D100) that the character will read the signs wrong. The referee must then make up a misleading answer. As usual in such cases, the referee rolls the dice.

Each POW point of this spell used allows one question to be asked. — RQ2, p. 66

… we would guess that the players got a seven-word answer, not the characters — they have to read the signs/entrails/goose flights — and that the status of a successful roll is unclear. I suspect the spell was for the players to get straight answers about “factual matters” from the GM, not for worshippers to doorstep deities with attitude surveys: “On a scale of 1 (coldly furious) to 5 (warmly embracing), Mr Orlanth, how do you feel about werewolves?”

5 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

For our Glorantha, I'm going with "them" (the Telmori) aren't chaotic.

I totally get the Telmori-are-people-too thing and that they deserve our sympathy for their curse and impending doom, but what is the motivation for making them non-chaotic? If a bunch of left-handed humans were being persecuted as supposed dragonewt sympathisers, would we immediately reach for “they are not really left-handed”?

[Jeff]

On 3/13/2023 at 11:19 PM, M Helsdon said:

The Telmori provided a loyal dedicated bodyguard for the rightful heir, and the tribe included potential heirs to the House of Sartar. The refusal of the bodyguard to protect Temertain, and their persecution by the Lunar Wulflanders perhaps as part of the suppression of the House of Sartar, and their worsening relationship with other tribes suggesting that Sartar's agreements with them (reliant on the presence of his heir on the throne) were no longer binding, and all.... suggestive. Perhaps Argrath's royal claims were more tenuous than he admitted, and their destruction removes questions over his legitimacy and removes rivals.

Argrath and Kallyr both have very thin royal claims - better than anyone else, but still not much. Neither were the child of a Prince, nor the grandchild. Kallyr was the great-granddaughter of Prince Jarolar (one of the second tier princes at that). Argrath had even less - his ties were entirely matrilineal, and his great-great grandmother was the famed Onelisin Catwitch daughter of Prince Saronil (admittedly a little more illustrious but even more distant). Temertain's wasn't great either - he was second cousin of Prince Salinarg. But at least that was a lot closer than those two.

Kallyr and Argrath are considered viable because they do have some kinship with the royal house, even if it is very distant, and they have people who will follow them.

Here's the notes on the Telmori uprising:

In 1628, encouraged by opponents of Prince Argrath, Telmori rebelled before Argrath’s army left Sartar to cross the Dragonspine. Rather than be distracted from his goal, Argrath ignored the Telmori. However, upon his return to Boldhome the following year, Argrath suppresses the Telmori uprising.

How the Telmori get suppressed is something that your campaign likely decides. Maybe Argrath sends in the Storm Bull cult and Humakti to do it, forcing the werewolves out of Dragon Pass. Maybe Argrath defeats the ringleaders and makes a new pact with the remaining Telmori. Who knows for certain, except in your campaign.

[Jeff]

Orlanthi cannot "sense Chaos" but someone tainted by Chaos cannot initiate to Orlanth. The magic just doesn't work.

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Orlanthi cannot "sense Chaos" but someone tainted by Chaos cannot initiate to Orlanth. The magic just doesn't work.

Unless they’re illuminated, of course. Like Argrath.

[Bren]

9 hours ago, David Scott said:

Here are a few of articles that may help explain Argrath's and the house of Sartar's relationship to the Telmori:

• Telmori Chaos Taint
• The Telmori
• The House of Sartar, Feathered Horse Queens, and Werewolves
• Sartar Telmori
• Defunct Sartar Tribes

Very helpful. Thanks!