The names of the gods

[Zac]

I was listening to the latest God Learners podcast with Jeff and I was intrigued by the discussion about the various issues surrounding the names of the deities in Glorantha. Jeff made mention to some Meso-American traditions with gods having multiple names but I always thought that this was a result of our experience with deities being not real. Would a deity, an actual physical presence with a personality, want to be known by more than one name?

Would the Gloranthan version of Heracles want someone to refer to him as Nio?

We can do it on earth because there is no actual deity going to pass judgement on us for misnaming them. Would that be that actual case in Glorantha?

Other than Eurmal who might think it was funny to appear to people as a totally different deity. 🙂 

[Ironwall]

The various names are likely gonna be descriptive, titles, nick names, assumed identities, individual portions of the diety who needs thier own name to differentiate themselves from the whole diety, or even just the way one languages pronunciation works

 

Plus a diety may not likely care what mortals call them so long as it's respectful 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Ironwall

[g33k]

Perhaps none of the mortal names are really representative, from the deities' POV?

All the names are just approximations... but they're only mortals, after all, and they're doing their best...

[French Desperate WindChild]

You @Zac in front of your computer have different names too 🙂 

 

A name is a kind of mask dedicated to a part of a bigger entity. It can be a local part, an activity part, etc

My « name » here is dedicated to runequest/Glorantha. 

 

you may not know but even here we can meet two masks of the same person:

one is the name of a fan/lover/player of the game, talking about his personal experience

a second is the name of the member of Chaosium, giving official answers

i let you find who’s who

[Richard S.]

3 hours ago, Zac said:

I was listening to the latest God Learners podcast with Jeff and I was intrigued by the discussion about the various issues surrounding the names of the deities in Glorantha. Jeff made mention to some Meso-American traditions with gods having multiple names but I always thought that this was a result of our experience with deities being not real. Would a deity, an actual physical presence with a personality, want to be known by more than one name?

Would the Gloranthan version of Heracles want someone to refer to him as Nio?

We can do it on earth because there is no actual deity going to pass judgement on us for misnaming them. Would that be that actual case in Glorantha?

Other than Eurmal who might think it was funny to appear to people as a totally different deity. 🙂 

Regardless of whether or not you believe in gods in our world, other people freely give them multiple names while fully believing that the gods can exact judgement on offenders. That's evidence enough for me that Gloranthan gods don't care either, except for cases where you're trying to name them as an entirely different god (a la Ernalda and Dendara vs. the God Learners). But you can call Orlanth Worlanth, West King Wind, Humat, etc. and the god will still respond, as those are all proven to be names/titles for the same being.

[AndreJarosch]

5 hours ago, Zac said:

I was listening to the latest God Learners podcast with Jeff and I was intrigued by the discussion about the various issues surrounding the names of the deities in Glorantha. Jeff made mention to some Meso-American traditions with gods having multiple names but I always thought that this was a result of our experience with deities being not real. Would a deity, an actual physical presence with a personality, want to be known by more than one name?

Would the Gloranthan version of Heracles want someone to refer to him as Nio?

We can do it on earth because there is no actual deity going to pass judgement on us for misnaming them. Would that be that actual case in Glorantha?

Other than Eurmal who might think it was funny to appear to people as a totally different deity. 🙂 

Zeus/Jupiter: The same god or two different gods?

Odin/Wotan: The same god or two different gods?

Zeus/Jupiter and Odin/Wotan also have a lot in common: Same deity or two/for different gods?

If the name of a god is pronounced dirfferent in another language, does that count as a different name?

What if the name of a god you worship has a different meaning in another language? Wouldn´t it be okay to have a different name in that other country?
 

You are Zac, other people might call you son or dad. Do you choose only to answer to one of them?


A lot of real world human cultures have different names for the same deity. Some of them were actually titles, but in the understanding of their worshippers that became their names. 

I find it totally acceptable to have multiple names for one glorantha deity. I actually prefer using local name variants in some of my games. 

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, AndreJarosch said:

Zeus/Jupiter: The same god or two different gods?

i think the OPs point is that very much the simplest explanation, held by pretty much everyone reading this, is that there are zero gods here. There are no facts about the real world where someone is likely to ask 'well, if Zeus doesn't exist, how do you explain that?'.

Gloranthan history and physics is resistant to the zero-gods interpretation, in some cases violently. 'if orlanth doesn't exist, then why am I being struck by lightning' is a pressing question to a surprisingly large number of people. Though rarely for long enough to fully work through the philosophical implications..

As to how you distinguish between one, two or many, then in Runequest rules terms, it is pretty straightforward. You use your _worship zeus_ skill, and see if you  can regain rune magic you learnt at the temple of Jupiter. In most plausible cases, someone has already tried this; it either worked or didn't. Either way, there will likely be an elder or sage your character knows who is pretty certain they know the answer.

Of course, the magical fiction writer AC Clarke's first law says:

Quote

When a distinguished elder states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

[Nick Brooke]

“You say I took the Name in vain: I don’t even know the Name. But if I did, well really, what’s it to ya? There’s a blaze of light in every word: it doesn’t matter which you heard, the holy or the broken Hallelujah.”

[Akhôrahil]

8 hours ago, Zac said:

Would a deity, an actual physical presence with a personality, want to be known by more than one name?

What we can presumably say is that the god, for whatever reason, doesn't instruct people in what to call him or her. Or at least isn't consistent about such things.

I personally like the idea the the cults are at best semi-accurate at representing the "reality" of the gods, so it makes sense that they'd differ. The gods mostly don't care enough to punish for doctrinal differences, or even instruct anyone in the details. And if you really set out to learn the truth, such as with a heroquest, you will probably just end up verifying your prejudices.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[jajagappa]

9 hours ago, Zac said:

Would a deity, an actual physical presence with a personality, want to be known by more than one name?

As they have multiple titles, which are effectively names, why not?

And given that a deity can appear in whatever form they wish to manifest in, possibly with a distinct personality with that form, why would that manifestation not convey how they wish to be known to whoever they appear to?

[Ali the Helering]

If you Google "Biblical names of God" you will find the estimates range between 3 and 967 for that one volume alone.  Similarly the, 7, 10, 50 or 100 'names of Jesus'.

As ever, if you want to emulate the RW in your Glorantha, go as wildly complex as you can!

[Leingod]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

As they have multiple titles, which are effectively names, why not?

And given that a deity can appear in whatever form they wish to manifest in, possibly with a distinct personality with that form, why would that manifestation not convey how they wish to be known to whoever they appear to?

Orlanth's myths even have him explicitly giving himself a new name when he invents something new or does something for the first time, like calling himself "Varanorlanth" when he lived in the wild and "Desemborth" when he stole something. And don't even get me started on the weird thing the Earth goddesses have going on with names and identities.

The gods treat names and faces the way mortals do with clothes: You wear whatever you've got that's appropriate for the occasion. What does the volcano god care if he's answering to Lodril or Veskarthan? If your worship is pleasing to him, he'll wear either set of clothes just as gladly.

[Joerg]

16 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

Zeus/Jupiter: The same god or two different gods?

Learned Graeco-Roman authors made little distinction.

16 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

Odin/Wotan: The same god or two different gods?

Hard to tell since all sources about Wotan/Woden were burnt under Louis the Pious, undoing a generation of scholarly work on the myths of the Saxons and pre-Christian Franks after slaying their carriers of tradition, too. Graeco-Roman visitors assured us that they worshiped Mercury/Hermes.

 

16 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

Zeus/Jupiter and Odin/Wotan also have a lot in common: Same deity or two/for different gods?

Fairly different. While Norse Mercury had rulership aspects in addition to his mediatorship to the underworld (hanging himself from the world tree), the Sky Father (Dyaus Pitar) arrived in Norse myth as Tyr (Tiu/Tiwaz), god of the oath and the sword, while lightning and thunder would be the realm of Donar/Thor. The pagan visitors would not have identified the one-eyed king of Asgard with their Olympian king.

Whenever you reduce a deity to a name, you are applying a mask or a very specific PoV onto the elephant whole of the deity, and if you are lucky, that mask/perspective offers trunk, tusk and ears in one go.

 

We have texts talking about the 49 names of Orlanth (in Heortling culture), and there are doubtless others in other places, recognizing different places of birth, possibly different mothers. That list will change from place to place, too.

Lodril has a bunch of names when associated with certain fire mountains - Ladaral/Laddy, Lodik, Turos (ViTuros, KetTuros...), ViSaruDaran, Veskarthan, Solf, Balumbasta, Baba  Ulodra...

 

The identification game gets interesting when you exploit the clear parallels of clearly distinct entities to either flip between their roles in myth, or replacing one with the other. Like making Tolat the sword bearer who stabbed and dismembered Yelm, and then went to Hell for the reunion with all the others he sent down there to attend the Ritual of the Net.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Joerg

[Zac]

On 10/9/2023 at 5:40 PM, radmonger said:

i think the OPs point is that very much the simplest explanation, held by pretty much everyone reading this, is that there are zero gods here. There are no facts about the real world where someone is likely to ask 'well, if Zeus doesn't exist, how do you explain that?'.

Gloranthan history and physics is resistant to the zero-gods interpretation, in some cases violently. 'if orlanth doesn't exist, then why am I being struck by lightning' is a pressing question to a surprisingly large number of people. Though rarely for long enough to fully work through the philosophical implications..

I have to assume that I just wrote my original post inelegantly as @radmonger has summed up what I was trying to say in a better fashion than I did. 

On 10/10/2023 at 8:05 AM, Joerg said:

Lodril has a bunch of names when associated with certain fire mountains - Ladaral/Laddy, Lodik, Turos (ViTuros, KetTuros...), ViSaruDaran, Veskarthan, Solf, Balumbasta, Baba  Ulodra...

@Joerg has an example of when a deity might have a different name. The people refer to it based on a landmark. 

There are also instances when a language doesn't have a phonetic match for a sound and so there is phonetic substitution that changes the name of the deity. 

On 10/9/2023 at 11:32 PM, Leingod said:

Orlanth's myths even have him explicitly giving himself a new name when he invents something new or does something for the first time, like calling himself "Varanorlanth" when he lived in the wild and "Desemborth" when he stole something.

This is more a throwback to our own culture is it not? Human cultures would often do this and this is more a side-effect of the zero-gods issue I would think. There would be linguistic conditions that would cause this. Agglutinate languages could have new "names" for a deity that would just be "Thor drinker of egg-nog" and not a distinct deity. 

[radmonger]

One thing is that when you meet (or embody) a deity on a Heroquest, you are not speaking Sartarite or Esrolian, but Storm Speach or Dark Tongue. In other words, one language per rune, presumably with a fluency equal to your rating in the rune.

The capability to speak those runic languages outside the context of a ritual or quest is esoteric knowledge that few have, and vanishingly fewer master. So translating the words, names and titles used in a runic language to a human one is a far from perfect art. Nevertheless, it is one of great significance if you want to explain, plan or prepare for a quest beforehand.

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by radmonger

[Richard S.]

3 minutes ago, radmonger said:

One thing is that when you meet (or embody) a deity on a Heroquest, you are not speaking Sartarite or Esrolian, but Storm Speach or Dark Tongue. In other words, one language per rune, presumably with a fluency equal to your rating in the rune.

The capability to speak those runic languages outside the context of a ritual or quest is esoteric knowledge that few have, and vanishingly fewer master. So translating the words, names and titles used in a runic language to a human one is a far from perfect art. Nevertheless, it is one of great significance if you want to explain, plan or prepare for a quest beforehand.

What's your source on this? I haven't seen anything about rune tongues being the only languages you can speak on a heroquest (though they're probably helpful to know).

Basic ability with elemental languages is pretty common. Boatspeech, Dara Happan, Heortling, and Pure Horse Tongue all give 1/5 fluency with their elemental counterparts, which usually puts you at or close to "may get across simple requests and function living day-to-day" level.

[radmonger]

Prince of Sartar has the teenage Argrath, on his adulthood initation, 'speaking with the strange gods and making a plan', and discussing abstract philosophical concepts with a son of king vingkot..

No 16 year old stickpicker built according to RQ rules is going to have much of a rating in Old Vingkotling, especially when you consider that happened before education in cult skills.

http://www.princeofsartar.com/comic/3-the-underworld/

 

 

[Nick Brooke]

Yes, but the Strange Gods want to communicate with this weird kid, and they have Strange Powers. So it’s a silly objection.

[Joerg]

I wonder in which age communication between different entities became a problem requiring magic. As a rule, the further we go back to Creation, the fewer problems would be involved - the Green Age did not even require fire, the Golden Age did not require much in harvest magic, Storm Age required magic to supplement the missing sun, etc.

[Ali the Helering]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

I wonder in which age communication between different entities became a problem requiring magic. As a rule, the further we go back to Creation, the fewer problems would be involved - the Green Age did not even require fire, the Golden Age did not require much in harvest magic, Storm Age required magic to supplement the missing sun, etc.

and after Argrath?  One is always in awe of Greg's vision.

[radmonger]

Note also Trade Talk, the only magical runic language still in everyday human use. 

No doubt that goes away at the end of the 3rd age.

[coffeemancer]

I checked out the episode today. Was very good. I have a newfound appreciation for Jeff's perspective.

[The_Wombat]

I think back to Alice Through The Looking-Glass.

"The name of the song is called ‘Haddocks’ Eyes.’”

“Oh, that’s the name of the song, is it?” Alice said, trying to feel interested.

“No, you don’t understand,” the Knight said, looking a little vexed. “That’s what the name is called. The name really is ‘The Aged Aged Man.’”

“Then I ought to have said ‘That’s what the song is called’?” Alice corrected herself.

“No, you oughtn’t: that’s quite another thing! The song is called ‘Ways and Means’: but that’s only what it’s called, you know!”

“Well, what is the song, then?” said Alice, who was by this time completely bewildered.

“I was coming to that,” the Knight said. “The song really is ‘A-sitting On A Gate’"

I also think back to my old professor of Classical Greek History who was very fond on minor shrines to the gods.  He found one on a mountain switchback that was dedicated to Zeus, He of the Skies, He Who Drives Away Flies.  Those latter two appelattives could be construed as titles, but just as easily they could be seen as separate names. 

[mfbrandi]

On 10/9/2023 at 4:40 PM, Zac said:

Would a deity, an actual physical presence with a personality, want to be known by more than one name? … We can do it on earth because there is no actual deity going to pass judgement on us for misnaming them.

Perhaps these represent the poles in deities’ attitudes:

• names don’t matter: they are just labels
• names are power: no one gets to use my true name

Egyptian gods were keen not to give away their true names — not even to other gods. (See “The True Name of Ra” in Geraldine Pinch’s Egyptian Mythology, pp. 69–71. It is not “Ra,” obviously, but crafty Isis manages to get it out of him.)

For some gods of the lozenge, one might see the progression over time from proper name to “my [lord|lady]” to simply “the name.” Deities might want to put a bit of distance between their name (or names) and their worshippers’ lips. “But how do we route worship?” Proxy servers, onion services (Tor), darkweb (Pratzimnet) — all available from Krarsht, whose true name is unknown.

“Misnaming” sounds like a problem for thoroughly modern mortals (who protest that they are not all Millie). To be misnamed, misgendered, and unseen might suit some ancient gods down to the ground. 😉

[soltakss]

On 10/9/2023 at 4:40 PM, Zac said:

Would a deity, an actual physical presence with a personality, want to be known by more than one name?

Names are just titles, they all point to the same deity. So, the deities won't mind being called different things.

Look at our world, Paul, Pablo, Pavel all refer to the same person. Sean, Jean, John, and Johan are the same name in different languages.