How to Found a Minor Temple?

[Squaredeal Sten]

How to Found a Minor Temple?

Let me quote some background first before I pose my two questions, if only to show that I have indeed read the rules:

Campaign background of the question:

Note that for Issaries,  temples are markets, so the ambition to found one’s own minor temple seems a logical long term goal for any developed Issaries character who has a fixed base away from an existing temple.

Rules background:

p.282  of the rules [Roleplaying in Glorantha]  says somewhat casually that a Priest  can become a Chief Priest by qualifying to Found Own Temple of the cult.  The qualifications as printed are not impossibly demanding for a highly developed player character qualified as a priest: 15 rune Points and 90% ability  in three cult knowledge skills.  And “often” the permission of the High Priest “which is easy to get if the Priest goes somewhere else to set up the temple, and has sufficient funds to do so. “

I have found one additional item, essentially a change not included in Rune Fixes,  in the Well of Daliath Q&A from Jason Durall:

“Qualify to Found Own Temple of the Cult: To do this, a Rune Priest or Rune Lord must have the support of at least 150 lay members and initiates that will follow them to the new temple. This often requires the permission of the High Priest, which is easy to get if the Priest goes somewhere else to set up the temple, and has sufficient funds to do so. “  https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-players-book-print/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-13-rune-cults/

Question 1: It seems to me that the requirements as written  in the book are  too easy, though the Q&A change primes the GM to set a barrier and avoid the issue.   A PC may object that the temple is to be founded in a place where 150 lay members and initiates already live, at least within half a day’s journey.    But what does founding a minor temple mean in practical game terms?  A temple gives bonuses for worship rolls, and it seems inconsistent with other parts of the same book for it to only be a cabin with a carved image in one corner  or a plot of land with a “Temple” sign tacked up.    

Why inconsistent? 

A.      If you want  to replenish rune points in any  unofficial plot of ground, you have to use the Sanctify rune spell (p.338) and presumably if you want to use more than 15 minutes of  Ceremony  to  improve your odds of success that Sanctify will have to be combined with Extension (p.328 ).  Using this method we are already up to a cost of 5 rune points just to accommodate one Holy Season.   

B.      Given the explanation in Rune Fixes 2, that long-term Extensions tie up both the caster’s  rune points and the character’s other activities, it doesn’t seem practical to say that the priest just casts Sanctify and Extension frequently to make a minor temple.  Why? Because while that Extension is in effect  the priest won’t be able to perform other useful  rune spells to benefit the community, won’t be able to teach spirit spells,  and also won’t be able to regain his own rune points.   Also, if you do that spell combination on one Holy Day or in Sacred Time,  you’re very low on rune points until you can visit another temple.  When you make that trip to the other temple, your store is no longer a temple.   The local initiates may thank you for leading worship.  But you can’t support yourself as a priest this way and I question whether you have a temple as indicated in the rules.

C.      Therefore a temple founded on those terms (just casting Sanctify and Extension) can’t possibly operate in the long term and can’t benefit its community with only one priest or god talker, as the two examples in Apple Lane operate.  My conclusion:  To have a Minor Temple as a permanently or at least long-term sanctified area must require more, something really special, much more than just a single priest hanging out his or her shingle. 

So Question #1: what should the ambitious priest expect and what should the gamesmaster require for actually setting up a minor temple that can satisfy the standard and  basic worship bonus functions indicated on pp. 315-316? 

Question 2: While I ask that about founding a temple, the same question applies to setting  up a shrine, which gives no worship bonuses but evidently does allow rune point replenishment and even in some places possibly sacrificing POW and gaining  one rune spell.   Here we do have an example, for a shrine to a spirit rather than a god, p. 378.  That example  requires a “focus of power” (a relic?), a shaman, and at least ten initiates who will guarantee sacrifice of 1 magic point each every week.  But what would a god require to set up and maintain a shrine?   I only count three Issaries initiates in and around  Apple Lane, but there is an Issaries shrine there.    It must not take the same maintenance as a spirit shrine .  Presumably a god’s shrine is more durable and not so high-maintenance.  And in discussion I see talk about nomad shrines in Prax, which would not have a population every week but only seasonally.

Edited April 9, 2020 by Squaredeal Sten
took out excess line feeds.

[Dissolv]

You might be a bit too focused on the rules.  They exact requirements will of course vary from cult to cult for one thing.  More importantly they will vary with the vision of the Glorantha you are in.  You have learn those rules, not so much the rule book rules, if that makes any sense. 

#1) The answer is to ask your gamemaster.  I've never had a player ask to found a temple before, but you clearly need to have people worshiping there, or you really just founded a very large shrine with extra seating.  So I would have the player go somewhere clearly lacking in said cult, have an adventure of some type (likely a fairly long and epic one), and show the people the worth of his chosen god, defeat/trick/overcome their foes/problems/anxieties, and then actually go through the process of physically founding the temple.  Ideally this happens somewhat organically through play.

#2) Same answer -- ask your game master how his Glorantha varies.  But in mine that would be a very easy task in comparison, although as always, a shrine on the site of a great victory for that deity over *something* is 1000% better than some random statue to Zorak Zoran in the middle of a road for no reason.  

[Darius West]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So Question #1: what should the ambitious priest expect and what should the gamesmaster require for actually setting up a minor temple that can satisfy the standard and  basic worship bonus functions indicated on pp. 315-316? 

Firstly, lay-membership is very fluid.  If you show up to worship, pay your clack and spent your magic point, you're a lay-member.  Those who want to get more involved in the temple and aim for initiate status will be a lot more serious about their lay-membership, and it will be pretty obvious who those people are.  It is therefore pretty easy to scrape together 150+ lay-members, and often a tribal ring will insist that the numbers, sacrifices, and payments be met for the sole purpose of keeping a temple and its blessings available.  So think in those terms; a priest who wants to found a new temple should plan to get on the good side of their tribal ring, or find a place that is sacred to the deity where they can set up a myth-specific temple.  Obviously things like sacred items/relics are important too.

Most temples will have a consecrated space, and also substantial wardings, and perhaps a number of discorporate spirits or elementals in service to the deity operating to support the defenses.  The temple may also earn enough to support some guards, but these will largely be dependent on how threatened the temple is.  These defenses will become permanent fixtures, potentially supported by initiates who are "doing work for the temple for a season".

Each associated cult will need its own sub-altar, but these serve the double benefit of providing income from associated cultists who come in.  For example, an issaries priest can wander into an Orlanth temple and go and pray at the Orlanth Temple's Issaries votive statue alcove, and leave a donation, and meet their cult requirements that way.  On the other hand, if an Orlanth initiate wants to obtain Issaries' Lock spell, he would need to join the associated cult when the Issaries priest next comes to perform a ceremony there.  This sort of thing is handled as between games day-to-day business of the temple, governed by the Manage Household skill.

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I only count three Issaries initiates in and around  Apple Lane, but there is an Issaries shrine there.    It must not take the same maintenance as a spirit shrine .  Presumably a god’s shrine is more durable and not so high-maintenance.  And in discussion I see talk about nomad shrines in Prax, which would not have a population every week but only seasonally.

 The Issaries shrine at Apple Lane used to be maintained by Gringle Goodsell, before the Lunars, but I believe he was cleaned out after Starbrow's Rebellion in 1613.  The fact that there are 3 initiates doesn't mean that there aren't other people around the area who don't benefit from Issaries worship who will drop in to do business in Apple Lane.  Passing Issaries priests will be able to manage the shrine as they need it, and it is likely that there is at least one priest from one of the Colymar settlements who works at the larger temple, but travels to the shrine periodically, but doesn't live there.  Back in RQ2, the possibility for people to rent space under a Create Neutral Ground spell that would allow them to set up a temporary worship space for their deity, then pack up and ship off when their time elapsed, typically later that afternoon.  Presently the rules are not specific about this sort of thing. 

In the case of spirit cults, especially Praxian ones, the spirit will be tied not to a place, but to a sacred object, and the reverenced object will be carried about, and a new shrine set up wherever it and its shaman are.  Divine relics may perform in a similar fashion, but often the place itself becomes enchanted by being touched by the deity as worship feedback.  It benefits a deity to connect to the world, as it supports their power, much like farmers will plant an orchard, and come back seasonally to pick the fruit.  There is no reason not to suppose that deities are not sustained by worship, and will return to be fed again periodically.  If they stop being fed, they will signal their displeasure however.

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

If you want  to replenish rune points in any  unofficial plot of ground, you have to use the Sanctify rune spell (p.338) and presumably if you want to use more than 15 minutes of  Ceremony  to  improve your odds of success that Sanctify will have to be combined with Extension (p.328 ).  Using this method we are already up to a cost of 5 rune points just to accommodate one Holy Season.    B.      Given the explanation in Rune Fixes 2, that long-term Extensions tie up both the caster’s  rune points and the character’s other activities, it doesn’t seem practical to say that the priest just casts Sanctify and Extension frequently to make a minor temple.  Why? Because while that Extension is in effect  the priest won’t be able to perform other useful  rune spells to benefit the community, won’t be able to teach spirit spells,  and also won’t be able to regain his own rune points.   

You're forgetting the temple wyter. It can put up said Sanctify and Extensions.

As well, presumably, there's some other mechanics for a "permanent" sanctified space, probably like an enchantment ritual. 

[PhilHibbs]

I was about to say the same about the wyter. And, I don't think a permanent temple needs Sanctify constantly re-casting anyway. Whatever magical ritual is used to create a permanent temple is not described in the rules.

[Sumath]

Creating new consecrated ground for a minor temple could require some kind of Heroquest, I suppose. 

[Austin]

10 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

You're forgetting the temple wyter. It can put up said Sanctify and Extensions.

As well, presumably, there's some other mechanics for a "permanent" sanctified space, probably like an enchantment ritual. 

That's the same path my mind was walking.

• "Any community with an associated Passion has a wyter" (RQG 286)
• "these magical entities have become wyters through heroquests that bind the spirit and the community together" (Ibid)
• Temples have an associated Loyalty (temple) Passion.
• Therefore, founding a temple requires a heroquest.

I'm not sure if founding a shrine is the same, because I don't know of current examples where a shrine has an associated Passion. I'm willing to assume that part of the founding heroquest is what makes the temple a sacred space, not continuously maintained Sanctify spells.

[soltakss]

We used to play that every temple had to have a sacred item at its heart, but that probably isn't canon.

To a certain extent, a room with "Temple" written on the door might actually be enough. What you really need is some kind of altar for sacrifices of various kinds and an idol to focus worship. Once you have those and begin regular worship then you attract attention. Summoning a wyter to guard the temple makes it more powerful. for every 100 Initiates worshipping at the temple, it gains 1 Rune Point that can be cast once per day to cast a spell. Small temples might use that to gain a permanent Sanctify

[Squaredeal Sten]

Of all the answers to far. Crel's makes the most sense to me:  A heroquest, from which the successful quester comes away with a wyter that is intended for the new Temple.  More or less by definition, wyters make Loyalties/Passions possible or at least enhance them.    (We are told on pp. 286-287 that if the wyter is destroyed, the community and its passions and loyalties dissolves.)

The table on p.287 indicates that for an actual temple 251+ members of the community are needed, but less , as few as 50, for a shrine.  I don't see a requirement that all of the 251 be initiates. 

I do see that the wyter gets magic points at worship time (p.297), so presumably the wyter would not be sparing of its magic points.    But it looks as though the wyter must use its rune spells very sparingly, because (pp.286-287) it spends POW points and not rune points, and that POW will only be replenished by sacrifice of characteristic POW by members of the community.  Therefore  I don't see how the the wyter would be casting Sanctify regularly.   Wyter Rune spella can't be the source of daily Temple status because characteristic POW from the priest and congreagation would quickly run out.   Instead the wyter's existence and (I suggest)some dedication-event enchantment boosted by a large ceremony must create the Temple or shrine status, after which the status persists as long as the wyter does, if not perpetually then for  a very long time, without eroding as long as the site is in use for worship. 

By the same reasoning,  i don't see the wyter using its own rune spells / own POW often to do favors for the worshippers, despite the suggestion in the book.  Why resurrect one individual or bless one pregnancy if you come closer to dissolving the community?  That had better come from the priest, not the wyter.

This, like pp.286-7, brings up the topic of defense of a temple, which might be a game play  event:  Or the player characters foolishly deciding to raid an enemy cult temple.

Because of the limit on repeated rune magic available to a wyter (POW points not rune points),  it is in the priest(s) and the temple community's interest to begin acquiring cult spirits for the defense of the new temple.   A temple wyter has to defend with its own POW for last ditch efforts  only,  normally using any worship-acquired magic points for spirit magic and for rune spells relying on the cult spirits and the temple rune points (see next paragraph below).    I would guess that in extremis the wyter would attempt a divine intervention, with a 100%? worship skill and temple plus, and if the temple has been established long enough for lots of initiates to sacrifice POW to it that should fry most enemies unless the GM has it in for the temple. 

I do see on p.288 the part about temple rune points for every 100 initiates worshiping there, thanks for pointing that out.  The temple gets one rune point/100 initiates for defense and that DOES regenerate daily.  The book doesn't say the initiates must worship daily, just that they must worship there, presumably with some regularity or maybe that they at least were initiated there, wherever they may roam thereafter.   I  suggest that the count would include not only visiting initiates and any initiates of associated cults hat worship there,  but also  initiates with a Loyalty (or Passion?)  to the temple community.    I also suggest that the wyter which is the core  and definition of that Loyalty can be presumed to keep the roll of these rather than the chief priest worrying about it and inquiring into everyone's loyalty and passion like a bronze age KGB agent.     (No specific caster is designated for those rune points, so I  suppose the caster might be the wyter or the chief priest or maybe any priest or maybe the temple just operates on is own from the god's awareness, GM's choice.)   

I note that not all of the community of 251+ will be initiates, so depending on demographics a new minor temple may not be getting those defensive rune points.  On the other hand the great temple of Issaries in Nochet, a center of world trade that might expect a visit from many Issaries initiiates some time in their lives, would have hundreds or thousands of rune points for defense: Come to desecrate it and you are simply erased from the universe in one melee round, here's a match to set fire to your character sheet.  No wonder the Lunars couldn't take Nochet.

Follow up questions:

A. Why would an initiate sacrifice POW to the wyter rather than to the god? 

B. If a player sacrifices POW to the wyter, as distinct from sacrificing POW to the god, does that increase Loyaly?  Give a Passion check?  One would think.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by Squaredeal Sten
spelling

[French Desperate WindChild]

My view :

sanctify is a ritual, no instant, no temporal => sanctify doesn't need extension. Once the ritual is done, the area is sanctified while all other conditions (worship, sacred objects, enough members / sacrifice, no profanation, no curse, etc) are filled

I m not sure that Wyter is the good answer :

Quote

the wyter of the Ernaldori clan is bound to a corn snake, held sacred by members of the clan. It has POW 32 and CHA 17. The wyter resides in the Clearwine Earth temple and communicates with the High Priestess (who serves as the wyter’s priest).

Here we have a clan wyter, and this wyter lives in a temple, but it is the clan wyter, not the temple wyter.

then another type of wyter, the temple wyter :

Quote

 . Temple Defense: The deity worshiped defends its home. A temple can defend itself with magic, even without the presence of priests or worshipers, with guardian spirits called wyters, or other means of magical defense.

here you don't need to sacrifice to this kind of wyter: It is a guardian spirits sent by the god to protect its own temple.

 

As clan member you sacrifice your pow to your clan (aka clan wyter => if the clan wyter is destroyed, the clan is destroyed so wyter = clan )

As religious person, you sacrifice your pow to your god , and your god is able to manage powerful spirits, some of them are called temple's wyters

[dumuzid]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I do see that the wyter gets magic points at worship time (p.297), so presumably the wyter would not be sparing of its magic points.    But it looks as though the wyter must use its rune spells very sparingly, because (pp.286-287) it spends POW points and not rune points, and that POW will only be replenished by sacrifice of characteristic POW by members of the community.

Of the three example wyters in the Bestiary, two out of three have rune points in cults that they can spend for rune magic without having to burn their POW.  They regain those points by worshiping on appropriate holy days the same as any other spirit with rune points.  

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 4/9/2020 at 6:03 PM, dumuzid said:

Of the three example wyters in the Bestiary, two out of three have rune points in cults that they can spend for rune magic without having to burn their POW.  They regain those points by worshiping on appropriate holy days the same as any other spirit with rune points.  

Which seems to directly contradict the passages on Wyters i referred to, p.286 and 287  How to reconcile this?

"a wyter spends points of its characteristic POW instead of Rune points when casting Rune spells, with a chance of success equal to its CHA x 5."

"A wyter is incapable of recovering its own magic points.   Instead, the community worships the wyter and gives its magic points on the wyter's season holy days.  This worship is often combined with that of a local cult, such as Orlanth or Ernalda, making the wyter a subcult of the greater cult."

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by Squaredeal Sten
clarify my reference, spelling

[Squaredeal Sten]

7 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

My view :

sanctify is a ritual, no instant, no temporal => sanctify doesn't need extension. Once the ritual is done, the area is sanctified while all other conditions (worship, sacred objects, enough members / sacrifice, no profanation, no curse, etc) are filled

Reading the explanation of Sanctify, p. 338: It is "ritual, stackable" -  pp.245-246 and the spell glossary on p.247  explains ritual preparation, which can last from half an hour to 20 years, but no indication it changes the duration of effect of a spell once cast.    And p.317 Characteristics of rune spells:  "Unless the description says otherwise, all rune magic spells are passive with a duration of 15 minutes and a range of 160 meters"  = nothing in the description of Sanctify says it lasts longer than 15 minutes.  The description does say 1 point only covers a 10 meter radius.  So the description does take the trouble to indicate the casting time is "ritual" = at least 30 minutes, and the range is non standard, but the duration  of effect is not changed from the default 15 minutes.  This looks to me as if sanctify is a device for letting a party of adventurers regain rune points in the field, but 15 minutes had better be long enough for them to do that.  They can be performing their own rituals to increase Worship % while the priest Sanctifies, but when he is done with the ritual they had better be done in 15 minutes.. 

Ready, perform - rituals! Pray fast, men, we attack in an hour.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Squaredeal Sten
clarify reference

[Austin]

4 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

nothing in the description of Sanctify says it lasts longer than 15 minutes

This is something that has confused/frustrated me as well. In particular, in my campaign what came up was the adventurers wanting to use Divination while away from town (which requires being cast within a Sanctify).

I've ruled for my game that Sanctify basically lasts "as long as needed to do one thing." So if you need it up all night to get an answer in your dreams from your Divination spell, it's there. If you need it for three hours so you can do the Dance of the Falling Rains for Orlanth to get your Rune points back, it's good for that too. But it wouldn't be enough to sanctify a temple indefinitely—that only comes about through heroquesting (I don't think even an enchantment ritual does it, although I can see the heroquest requiring sacrifices of POW or other characteristics/goods).

it's also worth keeping in mind that some locations are inherently sanctified, like Larnste's Table and the Hill of Orlanth Victorious. They're sacred, and considered a temple, not because of the actions of mortals but because of what happened there during the God Time.

[soltakss]

6 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

nothing in the description of Sanctify says it lasts longer than 15 minutes

Temporal spells last for 15 minutes, Sanctify is not a Temporal spell, so Sanctify does not necessarily last for 15 minutes.

The description of Divination says that Divination can be cast in a Sanctify-blessed area.

Quote

This ritual must be performed in a holy place of the caster’s deity such as a temple or a Sanctify spell-blessed area that is undisturbed for the duration of the ritual.
This spell allows the caster to communicate with their deity. For each point of the spell cast during the ritual, the communicant may ask a simple question and they either receive an answer of up to ten words or a brief vision or dream of the answer. This procedure requires one hour per point of Divination used.

The description of using Divination on p271-272 says that you can cast Divination in a sanctify-blessed area. Casting Divination takes 1 hour per point used, so takes a minimum of 1 hour to cast. The description does not mention casting Extension.

Quote

Example: On the cliffs above Snakepipe Hollow, Yanioth decides to cast the Divination spell to determine what her goddess can tell her about the possible location of the item she and her allies seek: the famed Snake Pipe from which the area takes its name. 

To prepare for the spell, Yanioth must first cast Sanctify to ready the space for her Divination. Yanioth spends 1 Rune point to cast the spell and rolls to see if the spell casting is successful. As Sanctify is a common Rune spell identified with the R Rune, she can use the cult Rune affinity of her choice, so Yanioth chooses to roll her Earth Rune affinity, a 90% chance. She rolls a 35, a success, and thus the ground is Sanctified.
Now Yanioth can cast Divination. Like Sanctify, it is a common Rune spell and she can select the cult Rune affinity of her choice to cast it, so again she uses her Earth Rune. Even a roll as high as 82 is successful, so she checks off another Rune point as the Divination is cast successfully. 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by soltakss

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, Crel said:

I've ruled for my game that Sanctify basically lasts "as long as needed to do one thing."

I think with Sanctify it's better to consider it the other way: it lasts until something de-sanctifies/defiles the ground (and what that condition is will likely vary by deity)

If I go up to the hilltop needing to perform a rite to Orlanth, I go ahead and sanctify the ritual space.  I conduct a worship or a divination.  All good. Now, if I want to protect that space, I either need guards sitting on the hilltop (who hopefully don't do something offensive to Orlanth) or a warding or perhaps enchanting an air spirit into the place. But if I just leave, the sanctified space will likely be sullied by something.  Maybe its the bright light of Yelm falling upon it under a cloudless sky. Maybe its a serpent that squirms across the ground. Or a raven lands within the space....

[Akhôrahil]

22 hours ago, soltakss said:

To a certain extent, a room with "Temple" written on the door might actually be enough. 

I think the big difference here is between a properly permanently consecrated space, and one where you need to cast Sanctify every time first. Your example might be a temple, but not a Temple.

[soltakss]

18 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think the big difference here is between a properly permanently consecrated space, and one where you need to cast Sanctify every time first. Your example might be a temple, but not a Temple.

That's where Temple Defences come in. As soon as it gets 100 active initiates worshipping it, it gets a Temple Defence spell, which is probably sanctify, making it permanently sanctified.

[Squaredeal Sten]

Wow, about shrines;  Today (4/15/2020) I found this in Well of Daliath:  

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-players-book-print/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-13-rune-cults/

Temple Sizes (page 284)

How does one set up a new shrine for a Rune cult?

The book talks about this being a thing one might be asked to do by one’s cult but only details of how to start a spirit shrine are given.

This is a task beyond any hard-and-fast rules set. You’ll need to work with your gamemaster to determine the costs of the physical location, the social/civil negotiation required to build it, the procurement of labor and materials, and the process of having a Rune Priest or God-talker come in and Sanctify the place. If in doubt, consider it a case of casting a multi-point Sanctify with Extension to last at least a year. The particular god may have requirements above and beyond these, such as Ernalda demanding an underground chamber, Yelm an eternal fire, etc.

The upcoming RuneQuest Campaign Guide contains a bit more about temples and shrines, with some ballpark prices, but does not go into great detail.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Squaredeal Sten
took out extra line feeds.

[Lordabdul]

On 4/8/2020 at 2:40 PM, Squaredeal Sten said:

A temple gives bonuses for worship rolls, and it seems inconsistent with other parts of the same book for it to only be a cabin with a carved image in one corner  or a plot of land with a “Temple” sign tacked up. 

[...]

what should the ambitious priest expect and what should the gamesmaster require

Besides all the good stuff already share here, one thing that stands out to me is that the players may not realize what they're in for? It's like saying that you want money and free meals, so you're going to open a restaurant... obviously, you're going to get money and free meals only after having worked your ass off actually, you know, managing and maintaining the restaurant (hiring cooks and waiters, managing permits, handling supplies, fending off mafia thugs, kicking out drunken people, establishing a rapport with the neighbourhood, etc.). Similarly, you don't just open a temple to get easy POW and Rune points and expect to not do some hard work. For this reason, I think the players and GM need to discuss this because it would logically refocus the campaign around that temple's affairs and agenda.

Another thing is that I'm not sure a character would have enough traction to attract 150+ people to a new temple? Unless there was a big vacuum caused by the destruction of a previous temple? I might make it clear that it's easier to start with a Site and move on to a Shrine and then to a Minor Temple. Kinda like starting with a food truck or hole-in-the-wall place before moving on to a proper sit-down restaurant. And yes, I'm all about restaurants. I miss restaurants these days! Anyway...

Last, remember that a site/shrine/temple can start with only lay members -- most likely people from a nearby community that the priest and their entourage will provide ongoing services to. You only need to accumulate actual initiates when you want free temple defenses I think?

[jajagappa]

56 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Similarly, you don't just open a temple to get easy POW and Rune points and expect to not do some hard work. For this reason, I think the players and GM need to discuss this because it would logically refocus the campaign around that temple's affairs and agenda.

This is a very critical point.  Even the effort to found a shrine is challenging, and will require refocusing PC efforts.

To get the number of people needed, you either need to be in:  a city (and face challenges from other temples, nobles, etc.), a clan (and convince them why they should support it, and likely overcome the clan chieftain, and clan priests), or a mercenary unit (how many battles have you and your deity won?). 

It's clearly easiest to found a new shrine within an existing temple - you've rescued a hero or spirit of old, probably as part of a heroquest, and that has some immediate benefit to the temple and the clan. 

But there are examples where this could be done.  Establishing the spirit cult of Firshala was noted as a potential event in Griffin Mountain.  Establishing a shrine at Raus Fort in the Borderlands was a possibility. 

[Squaredeal Sten]

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Wow, about shrines;  Today (4/15/2020) I found this in Well of Daliath:  

........ This is a task beyond any hard-and-fast rules set. You’ll need to work with your gamemaster to determine the costs of the physical location, the social/civil negotiation required to build it, the procurement of labor and materials, and the process of having a Rune Priest or God-talker come in and Sanctify the place. If in doubt, consider it a case of casting a multi-point Sanctify with Extension to last at least a year. The particular god may have requirements above and beyond these, such as Ernalda demanding an underground chamber, Yelm an eternal fire, etc. ,,,,

I like Lordabull's approach, though I think an additional layer or ceremony and sacrifice would be appropriate.  Something like ten initiates sacrificing a point of POW during the dedication.  The god may maintain the sirine's magical essence after that, but  it's got to be difficult to establish or every street corner would have a shrine. 

Of course in Nochet it appears that every street corner MAY have a shrine, depending on how you want to interpret the description in "Esrolia, The land of Ten Thousand goddesses. " p.9 "there  are a thousand temples and shrines to the deities, spirits and essences that reside here."

[Bill the barbarian]

7 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Besides all the good stuff already share here, one thing that stands out to me is that the players may not realize what they're in for? It's like saying that you want money and free meals, so you're going to open a restaurant... obviously, you're going to get money and free meals only after having worked your ass off actually, you know, managing and maintaining the restaurant (hiring cooks and waiters, managing permits, handling supplies, fending off mafia thugs, kicking out drunken people, establishing a rapport with the neighbourhood, etc.

As a former Red Seal Chef who graduated academically at the top of his class in the entire province (middle of the class practically, a good cook, but one who knew what was what), what Ludo says is very accurate (enough to make me think you have a bit of history in a kitchen or have read a lot of Anthony Bourdain). We are finding this out with podcasting

But yeah, transitioning these thoughts to temples and shrines, I have nothing to add. Everything above says it all except look to MGF for a way to make it good for the table (cooking or RPGing). 

Edited April 16, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[Joerg]

A temple can get a regular attendance by throwing feasts, which means a sufficiently rich sponsor can attract enough of a crowd for regular attendance if they can do so by exchanging some magic for food and booze. Having a good fair-like atmosphere around your festivals will attract more.

If you have a sufficient number of tenants, those will provide a good portion of the attending crowd for the festivals - it is when they can partake of the portion they provide to the shrine.

Having a suitable relic, occupying an accessible yet suitably magical place, and impressive sacral architecture can take you onward.

If your players establish themselves in a role similar to Duke Raus, they should be able to maintain a couple of shrines or a small temple on their own. That does alter the pattern of adventuring, though, and will put some focus on domestic trouble-shooting. Effectively King of Dragon Pass/Six Ages style table-top role-playing.

 

Or, once you have sufficient means to just throw resources at it, you create a follower who runs that temple for you and generates the occasional plot hole hook.

[Lordabdul]

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

A temple can get a regular attendance by throwing feasts, which means a sufficiently rich sponsor can attract enough of a crowd for regular attendance if they can do so by exchanging some magic for food and booze. Having a good fair-like atmosphere around your festivals will attract more.

I wonder if that can be a plot where the PCs are trying to disrupt some local deity by expanding the realm of their own deity equivalent. Basically, instead of the heavy handed Lunar methods of conquest, you instead do some sneaky (but possibly coordinated!) cultural/religious overtaking of your neighbours.... I mean, if you offer very similar blessings as the other temple, but you also have free t-shirts and honey-glazed pork chops every Wildday, maybe people will switch over to your deity! Better keep some armed guards on retainer, though, because the other temple will sooner or later become very upset about it...

Is there any precedent for this kind of stuff? I mean, when you create your own temple, I don't think there's many options besides:

1. The old temple got destroyed, or the old priest got killed or went away, and you're the replacement.
   1. Under Lunar occupation, the old priest might have been anti-Lunar and you've got some agreement because you're a dirty Lunar collaborator.
   2. After the Dragonrise, the opposite might be true: the old priest was pro-Lunar but died in the Dragonrise, or got lynched by the local population. You were in the rebellion and people support you.
   3. Anything else could happen to the temple and/or priest otherwise (troll/tuskraiders/etc raid, accident, previous priest moving on up or dying of old age, etc.)
2. You're going to a place where your cult doesn't exist yet, and there's no competing cult.
   1. Going to Balazar/Elder Wilds/some other mostly unpopulated place.
3. You're going to a place where you cult doesn't exist yet, but there is a local competing cult.
   1. So yeah, free t-shirts!

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Or, once you have sufficient means to just throw resources at it, you create a follower who runs that temple for you and generates the occasional plot hole hook.

I imagine that a temple priest would indeed have some NPCs around to manage the day-to-day stuff... although given the correct PC party composition, that could be the party itself, and that's what they do between adventures.