Belintar

[Richard S.]

32 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

No more information than we had previously, though.  Origin unknown.

Origin unknown, yes, but we know that he is an actual, full-on God who follows similar rules to the Red Emperor, and resides in both the god world and mortal world simultaneously as an intermediary. AFAIK we never had all that confirmed, though some may have been guessed.

[Revilo Divad Of Dyoll]

6 hours ago, David Scott said:

Here's a map of the UK / Dragon Pass overlaid. It was made by Colin Driver who created the Guide / AAA maps for a map talk at Dragonmeet. It's the UK as the Con we were at was in the UK and Colin and myself live there.

I'm sure there's a US and continental European one somewhere.

 

Is there any relationship between Blackpool (England) and Blackwell (Esrolia)?  I've never been to either.

Thanks,

David.

[dumuzid]

56 minutes ago, Revilo Divad Of Dyoll said:

Is there any relationship between Blackpool (England) and Blackwell (Esrolia)?  I've never been to either.

One of the allies Only Old One called up to oppose Belintar's conquest was an enormous monster, which may or may not have been a true dragon.  When Belintar slew it late in the conquest its body formed the Lead Hills.  The Blackwell is a settlement Belintar commanded the trolls to build after he won the war, to keep watch on the place where the slain beast's brains leaked up onto the surface.

[Ali the Helering]

4 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

One of the allies Only Old One called up to oppose Belintar's conquest was an enormous monster, which may or may not have been a true dragon.  When Belintar slew it late in the conquest its body formed the Lead Hills.  The Blackwell is a settlement Belintar commanded the trolls to build after he won the war, to keep watch on the place where the slain beast's brains leaked up onto the surface.

Not entirely unlike Blackpool....

[Tindalos]

3 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

No more information than we had previously, though.  Origin unknown.

The depiction in the guide (page 238) and in Prince of Sartar (pages 44-45, referred to as his original body) has the appearance of someone from God Forgot, and dressed in their clothing. In the comic, he's even blue, suggesting he may be a Zzaburi!

[7Tigers]

For Belintar and the City of Wonders, don't forget to check:
http://www.princeofsartar.com/comic/29-the-city-of-wonders/

[Ali the Helering]

37 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

The depiction in the guide (page 238) and in Prince of Sartar (pages 44-45, referred to as his original body) has the appearance of someone from God Forgot, and dressed in their clothing. In the comic, he's even blue, suggesting he may be a Zzaburi!

My problem with this is that anyone can wear anyone else's clothing, that there are plenty of Blue People in Glorantha (and have been still more in the past) and that we have no idea who he (it?) is or what their origin is.  

 

3 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Origin unknown, yes, but we know that he is an actual, full-on God who follows similar rules to the Red Emperor, and resides in both the god world and mortal world simultaneously as an intermediary. AFAIK we never had all that confirmed, though some may have been guessed.

Unless we know Belintar's origin it is impossible to know whether he breaks the Compromise in some way or not.  Is he a creature from Outside or Within Time?  Is he from Glorantha or (shivers) somewhere else (duh duh duuuuuh).  How he functions is all very interesting, but it doesn't begin to cover WHY he functions.

[Eff]

A very serious theory: Belintar is the subject of the Eiffel 65 song "Blue (Da Ba Dee)" despite existing at least 15 years before said song did. 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Ali the Helering said:

My problem with this is that anyone can wear anyone else's clothing, that there are plenty of Blue People in Glorantha (and have been still more in the past) and that we have no idea who he (it?) is or what their origin is.

The OOO never managed to find out.  Do we need to?  We know what he did and accomplished.  We know he's now passed on and is not returning in the Hero Wars. 

I think we just need to accept that his origin will remain one of the Mysteries of Glorantha.

 

[dumuzid]

i like the symmetry implied by him somehow being OOO's lost son, who was murdered by Eurmal in the nadir of the Lightbringers' Quest, but there's no more evidence to support that than any other origin

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, Tindalos said:

The depiction in the guide (page 238) and in Prince of Sartar (pages 44-45, referred to as his original body) has the appearance of someone from God Forgot, and dressed in their clothing. In the comic, he's even blue, suggesting he may be a Zzaburi!

I'm not seeing the God Forgot origin of his clothing (the Guide mentions an Orlanthi torc for example_ and think it unlikely considering the Only Old One would identified him if he was from God Forgot, whereas we know that the Only Old One couldn't.  Moreover Carvak Zirian dresses quite differently than Belintar and he's a Zzaburi from God Forgot.

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

My initial hunch was that Belintar-as-God is not breaching the Compromise because he is essentially coopting the position of the Only Old One. He satisfies the requirements for a position that was instituted before Time (ie. the divine ruler of Kethaela) and "the Compromise" (not really a force in itself, but you get my point) doesn't recognize any appreciable difference. 

This, however, doesn't explain the powers and feats he did before killing the OOO, admittedly.

Edited February 10, 2021 by Sir_Godspeed

[Tindalos]

8 hours ago, metcalph said:

I'm not seeing the God Forgot origin of his clothing (the Guide mentions an Orlanthi torc for example_ and think it unlikely considering the Only Old One would identified him if he was from God Forgot, whereas we know that the Only Old One couldn't.  Moreover Carvak Zirian dresses quite differently than Belintar and he's a Zzaburi from God Forgot.

Which is interesting as the representative of God Forgot in the guide is clearly wearing a similar torc, and is in their traditional costume.

I agree he's certainly not in Zzaburi clothing, even if his skin would be right, but if the turban, the jewel in the forehead, the earrings, and it looks like the himation as well are traditional God Forgot clothing, then they're probably what the Talar wears -- suitable for the God-King.

[Jape_Vicho]

14 hours ago, Tindalos said:

The depiction in the guide (page 238) and in Prince of Sartar (pages 44-45, referred to as his original body) has the appearance of someone from God Forgot, and dressed in their clothing. In the comic, he's even blue, suggesting he may be a Zzaburi!

I thought of that too initially, but we have to remember that the Brithini are massive cynical jackasses, while Belintar is a mystic and somewhat of a good guy (no ruler can be really good but as statesmen go, he is benevolent and preoccupied of life and well-being).

[davecake]

He has the wrong facial hair for a zzaburi? More like a Horali, with that natty little moustache. 

[Joerg]

Belintar's epithet "the Stranger" makes it unlikely for any of the six parts of Kethaela to claim him as a native. That said, his facial features appear to be Wareran (almost undistinguishable from the  guy in the center of the five elemental representatives. But then, is that guy really the God Forgot representative, or is it a repetition of Belintar? And what is that dragon head below (or if you flip the image, to the left of) the Islander head doing in this image, and why isn't it mentioned in the explanations?)

Prince of Sartar presents Belintar as blue-skinned (and bleeding), presumably as he was on his arrival in Kethaela. The ascension tableau in the Guide uses almost the same optics (or vice versa), but tells us that Belintar has bronze skin (i.e. his tone of skin blends in well with the rest of Kethaela).

 

The Red Emperor has recognized offspring in just about every noteworthy noble lineage in the Empire.

Dormal is in all likelihood a son of Belintar. Did the Godking leave other offspring behind? Did any of these offspring (if they exist) start a noteworthy lineage outside of the City of Wonders (or did any such lineage branch outside of the City of Wonders)?

 

I don't think that Belintar would have conformed to any Malkioni caste, although he might have been a man-of-all, one who truly mastered all of the castes. He lacks the Innsmouth-like features one would expect from a Waertagi, but then those don't necessarily manifest in all Waertagi. (Judging from that Noloswal street scene, the Waertagi do interbreed with non-Waertagi. There is no other likely green-skinned ancestral influence for that palanquin-bearer.)

Was the body that swam ashore Belintar's original body?

[metcalph]

7 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Which is interesting as the representative of God Forgot in the guide is clearly wearing a similar torc, and is in their traditional costume.

The person concerned looks to me more like Belintar surrounded by five of the Holy Country Rulers.  I know the text says that's God Forgot is there as well but the text in the Guide is never quite alined with the pictures.

7 hours ago, Tindalos said:

I agree he's certainly not in Zzaburi clothing, even if his skin would be right, but if the turban, the jewel in the forehead, the earrings, and it looks like the himation as well are traditional God Forgot clothing, then they're probably what the Talar wears -- suitable for the God-King.

The text describes him a Bronze-coloured and I don't see any evidence for the God Fogotten having turbans, bindis and big earings.

[Sir_Godspeed]

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Dormal is in all likelihood a son of Belintar.

Wait, what?

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Was the body that swam ashore Belintar's original body?

Ooooooooohhh....

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Wait, what?

Prodigy of Belintar and Valira Delainaeo.  This is noted in the Guide p.142: "These included the Esrolian noblewomen Valira, appointed by Belintar and bearing his special knowledge" and "Dormal himself may have been critical to this success. He was the child of Valira and an unnamed father (who was proven to be Belintar in one of his earlier bodies)."

Also noted in the Glorantha Sourcebook p.28 regarding the Queens of Esrolia: "Valinyr (1564–1585). Born 1540 to House Delainaeo (great-granddaughter of Bruvala and niece of Brengala). Called the Sage. Overshadowed in history by her cousin Valira (the lover of Belintar and mother of Dormal), Valinyr
was a shrewd ruler and a generous patron of many temples (particularly the Temple of Knowledge). Retired to become Reverend Grandmother."

By the way, it is quite possible (or at least my theory) that the old woman who became Belintar in 1614 and is subsequently slain by Jar-eel was Valira.

Edited February 11, 2021 by jajagappa

[Charles]

Belintar and the Compromise: Heroes that achieve godlike powers are (AFAIK) referred to as Demi-Gods these days, replacing the much abused term Superhero. Belintar and the Red Emperor are quite similar in their manner of maintaining simultaneous godhood and mortal existence (and the last person to refer to this in the court of the Red Emperor disappeared, assumed executed).

Other Demi-Gods of the early Hero Wars period include Godunya, Jar-Eel, Cragspider (with her tamed Black Dragon), Harrek (wearing the Polar Bear God skin) and Ralzakark (who may have 'cheated' to get the position by having the exotic chaos feature of multiple bodies).

[Joerg]

6 hours ago, Charles said:

Belintar and the Compromise: Heroes that achieve godlike powers are (AFAIK) referred to as Demi-Gods these days, replacing the much abused term Superhero.

I don't think that the two terms are interchangeable.

Demigods could be quite minor in their powers, and you can be born a demigod (like e.g. Siglat or Moonson, or Kallyr's son).

Both Harrek and Jar-eel are demigods, too - Jar-eel by birth, Harrek by fusion with Rathor's pelt. But none of the other demigods like e.g. the Red Emperor have battle powers or magic control anywhere in the vicinity. The Red Emperor is both a demigod and a capital H Hero. Argrath is a capital H Hero, as is Ironhoof, Ethilrist, or the (incoming) Feathered Horse Queen.

Worshiped heroes are just that, not even warranting a capital H yet - think of Hofstaring Treeleaper, for instance. If their cult gets big enough, they might be Great Living Heroes like Renvald Meldekbane or Hachrat Blowhard were in the Second Age.

Both (super)heroes and demigods may wield immense magical powers. That doesn't break the Compromise, as they are operating inside Time obeying its rules. Neither does Kero Fin embodied in her mountain, or the various masks/cognates of Lodril embodied in theirs. Orlanth's manifestation as the world hurricane is as much part of the Compromise as is Yelm making his loops overhead.

Killing a normal god (like the God of the Silver Feet) doesn't necessarily break the Compromise (although it does break the world, at least regionally). Killing a "universal deity" like Orlanth at Whitewall may scratch at breaking it.

Manifesting a deity unleashed does break the compromise. Palangio going beyond acting as the avatar of Daysenerus at the Battle of Night and Day, and the uz manifesting the Black Eater at the same time and place. Renvald manifesting Orlanth in response to the Flesh Machine achieving godhead without ascension. The Red Goddess raising the moon definitely broke both the compromise and the world. (But then, the world is quite broken, anyway.)

Bringing back Genert could be done without breaking the Compromise, but on the other hand, it is quite unlikely that whoever achieves that will care much about the Compromise.

The Bridling of Kargzant late in the First Century apparently did not break the Compromise. But what was that huge barbarian warrior?

6 hours ago, Charles said:

Belintar and the Red Emperor are quite similar in their manner of maintaining simultaneous godhood and mortal existence (and the last person to refer to this in the court of the Red Emperor disappeared, assumed executed).

Trained to be one of the next Egi? 😉

6 hours ago, Charles said:

Other Demi-Gods of the early Hero Wars period include Godunya, Jar-Eel, Cragspider (with her tamed Black Dragon), Harrek (wearing the Polar Bear God skin) and Ralzakark (who may have 'cheated' to get the position by having the exotic chaos feature of multiple bodies).

Pluripresence is a power that already capital H heroes and demigods can manifest, according to Arcane Lore, but Ralzie is unusual in having three in the mundane plane. But then, he is his own Shadow, and the mirage in between, too.

[Jape_Vicho]

55 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Killing a normal god (like the God of the Silver Feet) doesn't necessarily break the Compromise (although it does break the world, at least regionally).

Just throwing in ideas but given that one of the consequences of the Syndics Ban was the birth of Lord Death on a horse, whose kingdom has a strong chaotic component, maybe the murder of the God of Silver Feet did break the compromise. 

[Ali the Helering]

On 2/10/2021 at 1:32 AM, metcalph said:

I'm not seeing the God Forgot origin of his clothing (the Guide mentions an Orlanthi torc for example_ and think it unlikely considering the Only Old One would identified him if he was from God Forgot, whereas we know that the Only Old One couldn't.  Moreover Carvak Zirian dresses quite differently than Belintar and he's a Zzaburi from God Forgot.

 

I knew I had seen him somewhere before

 

[IronDuck]

On 2/9/2021 at 6:55 PM, jajagappa said:

The OOO never managed to find out.  Do we need to?  We know what he did and accomplished.  We know he's now passed on and is not returning in the Hero Wars. 

I think we just need to accept that his origin will remain one of the Mysteries of Glorantha.

I don't think we need an official answer as he is obviously either a very powerful demi-god and/or someone standing in as a replacement for OOO. However, I don't know why anyone would say that he is not coming back for the Hero Wars. He is a very tempting target of the LightBringer heroquest by a group of Satar PCs. Rivalry with themselves as representative of Satar? Check. His death brought chaos and uncertainty? Check. His return to help fight a greater enemy i.e., the Lunar Empire? Check. Plus, I would imagine bringing Belintar back would be much easier and saner than trucking with Sheng Seleris.

[soltakss]

11 hours ago, IronDuck said:

He is a very tempting target of the LightBringer heroquest by a group of Satar PCs. Rivalry with themselves as representative of Satar? Check. His death brought chaos and uncertainty? Check. His return to help fight a greater enemy i.e., the Lunar Empire? Check. Plus, I would imagine bringing Belintar back would be much easier and saner than trucking with Sheng Seleris.

The trouble is that Belintar is only interested in the Holy Country.

Sure, he fought the Lunars at the Battle of Building Wall, but only because they invaded. 

Once the Lunars have been thrown out of the Holy Country, Belintar loses interest in them.

Sheng Seleris hates the Lunars with a vengeance that is both personal and mythical. He hates the Red Emperor more. He is utterly ruthless and bloodthirsty. Belintar is none of these, which is why Sheng Seleris is a good ally to bring down the Lunar Empire.