Yelmalio Analogy for changes over the years

[Scotty]

15 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Maybe in the fuller God's book Yelmalio will gain a few good spells from his associates.

• Speak with Birds comes from Vrimak, and is a cult special anyway.
• Command Horse from Hyalor (Southern Peloria & parts of Dragon Pass)
• Clear Sight from Sun Bird (Impala & Sable Praxians)

One of my players is a yelmalio merchant, and was very excited by Command horse.

 

[Richard S.]

I think the biggest disconnect is that Yelmalio is primarily a Light god whose worshipers just happen to be soldiers, but we expect him to be primarily a soldier god whose worshipers just happen to use Light magic.

[Eff]

2 hours ago, Richard S. said:

I think the biggest disconnect is that Yelmalio is primarily a Light god whose worshipers just happen to be soldiers, but we expect him to be primarily a soldier god whose worshipers just happen to use Light magic.

I don't think that distinction means all that much on its own. For one thing, the standard sets of elemental associations from broader culture only apply infrequently in Glorantha- Fire is associated with being cool and dispassionate, Earth is associated with being cunning- and for another thing, the determination of what makes a "Light god" in Glorantha- ascetic, sex-repulsed- is plainly derived from the development of Yelmalio in the early period of Gloranthan gaming. I think it is just as valid to say "Yelmalio is a Light god, so Yelmalio should have a Rune spell that fires lasers that are mechanically similar to the Lightning spell in damage," or "Yelmalio is a Light god associated with birds, so Yelmalio spirits are likely angelic and angels famously form a heavenly army that smites people, Yelmalio should have relevant Rune magic to this." 

Answers entirely from within the "setting canon" are not especially meaningful to anyone who isn't already invested in the canon, and they also can't really explain why Yelmalio being a Light god means that Yelmalio worshipers are significantly more restricted in the boons from their god than Orlanth worshipers are. To do that, you have to step outside the setting and talk about the meaning or connections of this decision or that one. 

[metcalph]

34 minutes ago, Eff said:

and they also can't really explain why Yelmalio being a Light god means that Yelmalio worshipers are significantly more restricted in the boons from their god than Orlanth worshipers are. To do that, you have to step outside the setting and talk about the meaning or connections of this decision or that one. 

An in-glorantha answer might look like this.  Yelmalio is associated with the faraway Sky which has been separated from the Earth by Storm.  To bring themselves closer to the Light, the Yelmalion must use Truth, not in the sense of factual knowledge, but in austere knowledge of mystical wisdom.   The real question is not why Yelmalio is weaker than Orlanth but why Yelamlio is weaker than Humakt.  Death, sadly, is stronger than Light.

[Eff]

9 minutes ago, metcalph said:

An in-glorantha answer might look like this.  Yelmalio is associated with the faraway Sky which has been separated from the Earth by Storm.  To bring themselves closer to the Light, the Yelmalion must use Truth, not in the sense of factual knowledge, but in austere knowledge of mystical wisdom.   The real question is not why Yelmalio is weaker than Orlanth but why Yelamlio is weaker than Humakt.  Death, sadly, is stronger than Light.

That's not really an in-Glorantha answer, that's an out-of-Glorantha answer- Yelmalio worshipers are weak materially because the concept that Yelmalio represents is weak materially in the Gloranthan context. Mystic practice won't preserve your life against those things which might try to end it. Which is a perfectly fine answer to go with. (The weirder, loopier take on this might be that with Death as separation, Yelmalio is weaker than Humakt because embracing Humakt-Death-separation is part of mystic austerity... but that's not as good for explaining specific Yelmalio rules that aren't directly associated with Humakt.)

[metcalph]

27 minutes ago, Eff said:

That's not really an in-Glorantha answer, that's an out-of-Glorantha answer-

It is an in-Gloranthan answer in that it is one that could be made by a Gloranthan.  

27 minutes ago, Eff said:

 

 

[davecake]

On 11/17/2022 at 6:23 PM, MOB said:

Yelmalio cultists: "We win but not losing"

Less kind voices say they don’t lose only because they refuse to end the game. 

[davecake]

On 11/18/2022 at 2:32 AM, Richard S. said:

I think the biggest disconnect is that Yelmalio is primarily a Light god whose worshipers just happen to be soldiers, but we expect him to be primarily a soldier god whose worshipers just happen to use Light magic

What gets me is that Yelmalio isn’t even close to being good at ‘happening to be soldiers’. In the Cults draft he is, I think, the third best at fighting of the three different light gods that are also fighting gods in the book, after Polaris and Yelorna? Even maybe fourth, after Kargzant, which is just a slightly better sub-cult?

There seems to be a serious effort to maintain that Yelmalio must have no useful combat magic, not even spirit magic. Any reason a cult that love the bow can’t grant Speedart or Multimissile? Why a cult that loves spears can’t have Bladesharp? Why a cult whose pride, and biggest myths, are about standing firm and continuing to fight can’t have Vigor or Protection? Why, if Yelmalio are supposed to be so effective because of their perfect training and esprit de corps, why Humakt gets Morale but they don’t? 

This is one of the things that keeps being said about Yelmalio - that players are mistaken that Yelmalio is a serious fighting god. The real joke is that no, it’s Yelmalions who are mistaken that they worship a fighting god. Yelmalio obviously has no interest in having soldiers as worshippers… 

Yet the lore, before even Cults of Prax, tells us that Yelmalio troops are really dangerous an effective in battle, against any opponent, not just trolls - and then the RQ rules give us virtually no reason to think that is remotely plausible. 

(IMG, Yelmalio regimental wyters tend to grant something like Morale, just to give them a chance. Or even just mass Fanaticism, as their defensive abilities are not needed if they just keep the shield wall strong. Face Darkness, analogous to Face Chaos, would make a pretty good Yelmalio sub-cult spell)

 

Edited November 19, 2022 by davecake

[Darius West]

I also think that a warrior cult that has no weapon enhancement Spirit spells is dubious.  Obviously Yelmalio can't have firearrow, but it should have multimissile and speedart, and definitely Bladesharp.  It probably wouldn't hurt if they had some sort of defensive spell as well.

I know that Yelmalio gets gifts, and they include weapon masteries, but having access to a few other spirit spells won't seriously unbalance this cult. 

[Russ Massey]

The Sun Dome Templars are a professional fighting force. In large scale fighting this should give them major advantages against non-professionals such as tribesmen and barbarians. This is not easily represented in the skirmish level actions typically seen on the RPG table top, but if you created a random action chart for non-professional warriors (so one could cast a defensive spell, while his mate fires a bow and a third man charges the eneny, and the fourth chants his augmenting war song) while the Yelmalions can act uniformly and in perfect sync (like PCs always tend to) then you'd see the advantage in action. It's the Roman army vs the Gauls, where professionalism can defeat a numerical advantage with relative ease.

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

There seems to be a serious effort to maintain that Yelmalio must have no useful combat magic, not even spirit magic. Any reason a cult that love the bow can’t grant Speedart or Multimissile? Why a cult that loves spears can’t have Bladesharp? Why a cult whose pride, and biggest myths, are about standing firm and continuing to fight can’t have Vigor or Protection

If Yelmalio losing his fire to Zorak Zoran means that his worshippers can not use fire magics, what does losing his weapons to Orlanth mean?  

But Ernalda provides Strength and Vigor while Aldrya and Yelorna provides Speedart and Multimissile.  All three will be present at the Sun Dome temple in Sun County.  What Yelm provides and whether he is also there is unclear.  Since there is no categorical prohibition on Bladesharp (which I'm not sure is useful for spears) or Protection, it doesn't follow that Yelmalions won't have it.  

But IMO standing in formation with a big pike trumps most spirit magics that their opponents have.

 

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

The real joke is that no, it’s Yelmalions who are mistaken that they worship a fighting god. Yelmalio obviously has no interest in having soldiers as worshippers… 

you don't understand 😛

 

Yelmalio, by luck, intelligence and skills, survived when the other gods were dead

but one day, the other gods came back from Hell

and here is the issue and the explanation

 

Yelmalio, the only one, of course seduced a lot of wives, of course as there was no competitor, and life (and lust) must go on.

but  they came back...

on his left, he saw Lodril, what can he do to compete with big oak spear ?!

on his right, he saw Orlanth, what can he do to compete with a poet warrior king ?!

... confine his wives

 

so you understand what provide Yelmalio to his worshippers .. ability to keep their wives at home (command hawk, the day, when they work outside to alert them if their wives are suspect), survey them the night (catseye) to follow them if they did something. And sunbright to show the fault to all and obtain a rightful judgement

you have even the magic anti-competitor like cloud clear against Orlanth...

Yelmalio was a very powerful war god... but too jalous now, he is focused on other affairs

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, davecake said:

Yelmalio obviously has no interest in having soldiers as worshippers… 

Yelmalio is a Golden Age warriors' cult, stranded in the Gods War and History.

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Since there is no categorical prohibition on Bladesharp (which I'm not sure is useful for spears) or Protection, it doesn't follow that Yelmalions won't have it.

Absurdly minimalist. We know that Yelmalians are happy to work with Humakti, and vice versa. There's your Bladesharp.

(And Bladesharp works on "any cutting, stabbing or hacking weapon." How exactly are you wielding your spear? That may be the problem)

Edited November 19, 2022 by Nick Brooke

[Jose]

I  think like Dave, Yelmalio is not about war, is about persistence and resilience. The Light which survived against all odds. If you are under the dominion of an Empire which consort with chaos, try to pervert your culture, tax your goods, and have powerfull magic units that sweep you away from the battlefield... If I were a young man of that clan/tribe/country... Maybe Yelmalio gives me the answers I desperately need. 

"When the wind stops, 

When the earth and waters are quiet,

When the fires are ashes, 

And the Crimson shadows grow strong... 

The time has come for the Last of lights to Shine! 

Come forth Yelmalio! Last light of Hope!"

Unknown poet, third age. 

 

Edited November 19, 2022 by Jose

[Jeff]

5 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Absurdly minimalist. We know that Yelmalians are happy to work with Humakti, and vice versa. There's your Bladesharp.

(And Bladesharp works on "any cutting, stabbing or hacking weapon." How exactly are you wielding your spear? That may be the problem)

Yeah, Yelmalio can learn Bladesharp by being a lay member of Humakt. Which is easy to do and IMG most warriors are lay members of Humakt for exactly that reason. At least most warriors capable of following Humakt's Code of Honor (which is supported by the cults of Orlanth and Yelmalio anyways) do.

[Baron Wulfraed]

15 hours ago, davecake said:

 Why a cult whose pride, and biggest myths, are about standing firm and continuing to fight can’t have Vigor or Protection? Why, if Yelmalio are supposed to be so effective because of their perfect training and esprit de corps, why Humakt gets Morale but they don’t? 

I could suggest it is that selfsame "pride" -- "We don't need no stinking magic assistance!"

[Darius West]

On 11/17/2022 at 9:23 PM, MOB said:

Humakt cultist: "I win by winning"

Yelmalio cultists: "We win by not losing"

Don't Yelmalios win by using Phalanx formations supported by cavalry archers as skirmishers?  Those Phalanx Rules in RQG are impressive.

Edited Thursday at 12:17 AM by MOB

[Videopete]

In among the Orlanthi, Elmal wasn't just the Sun God, but the Warrior who stayed behind to defend the home.  The trusted friend and ally who served as the Major Domo. Who fulfilled certain roles with in the light bringer quest, but the less glorious parts.  Then during the 3rd age, one of the members of the dynasty "figured out" (through God Leaner shenanigans) thar Yelmalio was Elmal, wich in my mind doesn't work as Elmal was a trusted friend and in charge of guarding the homestead, while Yelmalio is more antagonistic to Orlanth.  This is where the OH, they were thr same guy, routine doesn't work.

Also we have to remind our selves, Orlanthi and Yelmalians(?) aren't monotheistic, they worship many gods.  So they arnt locked to just their spirit magic.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

26 minutes ago, Videopete said:

Also we have to remind our selves, Orlanthi and Yelmalians(?) aren't monotheistic, they worship many gods.  So they arnt locked to just their spirit magic

By this logic, why bother listing spirit magic by cult at all?  Just assume anybody can learn anything.

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

By this logic, why bother listing spirit magic by cult at all?  Just assume anybody can learn anything.

Because the cults are a (usually cheaper) source for buying spirit magic, with lay membership or associate initiate status often enough to access those spells.

[Videopete]

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

By this logic, why bother listing spirit magic by cult at all?  Just assume anybody can learn anything.

Because access still requires Layman membership which still has memebership requirements, not every town has a temple to every god.  So as you travel to different locations access to various temples may become restricted, and the deity that offers the spell might be opposed to one of the gods you worship. So being able to regain Rune Points becomes a plot point. Even then the best instructors for spirit magic are shamans, wich as a society becomes more organized and bureaucratic Shamans become less common, heck by the 4th or 5th age spirit magic and rune magic may become incredibly rare and restricted to a priest class, resulting in a world more resembling Magic World, and less 3rd age glorantha.

 

It's one of the reasons I wish RQG offered an option for characters that don't start start as initiates.  Heck in my planned Gangs of Pavis game I got rolling in my head, while the Lunars rule Pavis a lot of the Orlanthi can't regain RP or even initiate as when they become adults because thier Priests have to become more leary of accepting new members. 

[radmonger]

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

By this logic, why bother listing spirit magic by cult at all?  Just assume anybody can learn anything.

There rules are pretty explicit on spirit magic: see RBoM p105. Barring taboos and cult secrets, anyone can learn anything, for hard cash. In most parts of the world, a given market is more likely to contain a shaman selling spells than it is a redsmith selling bronze weapons. The cost (p109) is high enough that relatively few characters will be able to afford it with money earned during downtime, rather than adventuring.

Cults teach magic for services provided, often free or at a discount, during character creation or downtime. 

Shamans or priests, when they act as patrons giving out adventures[1], often pay in spirit magic training. Listing magic by cult shows what they have available for this purpose. 

There are a couple of things that are less than explcit:

• cult high holy days often offer initiates the chance to participate in minor heroquests rituals with the reward of a specific spirit magic spell for free. This should usually be played out as an adventure or cameo, but can just be a freebie at GM discretion.
• money gained during character creation can be used to buy spiriit magic spells as above. So a sentence in the characetr creation section saying 'now see pxx to buy extra spells or gear' might help some people.

[1] i.e. politicians hiring muscle

[theconfusingeel]

On 11/19/2022 at 11:00 AM, Joerg said:

Yelmalio is a Golden Age warriors' cult, stranded in the Gods War and History.

It's funny you say that about a god that came into existance the moment the golden age ended
either way this mentions yelorna and shargash being golden age war cults, and i don't know about Yelorna, but Shargash has what seem to me like good combat rune spells(berserk, summon   fire elementals and demons of all sizes, shield plus absorbtion, true sword and spear, and fire spear from associates, and maybe other cause this is just what somebody said was in the previews) and I imagine he provides most of the combat spirit spells too.

[Joerg]

2 minutes ago, theconfusingeel said:

It's funny you say that about a god that came into existance the moment the golden age ended

That's just Antirius. Reladivus Kargzant was present for Umath's invasion of the Sky, and was the one planetary son of Yelm not leaving the sky. He started his wanderings then. There may have been other Lightfores even older.

Otherwise, I still think that statement captures a lot of this cult's nature.

Shargash until the collision with Umath was a Golden Age warrior cult as well - there is this comical scene where he and his drummers all but drown standing before the advancing Sshorg(a) before Murharzarm had her turned into (somewhat) tamed Oslira. When Shargash dove down into Hell to dismember Umath, he merged with a being of Hell, Shadzor, and emerged changed, a brutal monster often without any civilized restraint. And we know what became of Verithurus(a).

Yelorna doesn't show up in the Dara Happan catalogues, except maybe her birth as one of the many stars in the wake of Zator leaving the Sky Dome through Stormgate.