Humakti Duel Advice and Tactics

[Rodney Dangerduck]

We've run a lot of Humakti Duels, but always with "no magic allowed".  Pretty simple.  The disputants whack each other until somebody misses a parry, crits, or whatever.

With magic allowed, especially with Allied Spirits, it's hard to imagine all the possible tactics.  Should the quickest draw (highest DEX) just cast an attack spell for a roughly 50% chance of a win?  (Or Thunderbolt, if they have it, for a sure win?) Does it just become an accounting battle of stored magic points for your casting of Sword Trance?

If anybody has actually run some of these, between high level combatants, any tips, "action replays", etc. would be appreciated.  @soltakss?    Thanks.

[hipsterinspace]

There’s an account of a duel between Nameless and Alain at Tourney Altar in Cults of Prax that’s pretty good. It paints a nice picture of how they both make creative use of magic in an attempt to gain an advantage over the other.

[Joerg]

21 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

There’s an account of a duel between Nameless and Alain at Tourney Altar in Cults of Prax that’s pretty good. It paints a nice picture of how they both make creative use of magic in an attempt to gain an advantage over the other.

With Sword Trance absent, this duel is hardly applicable to RuneQuest: Roleplaying in Glorantha rules. This spell should be banned from Humakti duels (alongside Sever Spirit) as it basically means a victory for the duelist able to pour the most magic points into the spell.

Edited March 18, 2023 by Joerg

[Bren]

Do you mean that the Salamander that Naimless summoned should have been banned or that Sword Trance should be banned?

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, hipsterinspace said:

There’s an account of a duel between Nameless and Alain at Tourney Altar in Cults of Prax that’s pretty good. It paints a nice picture of how they both make creative use of magic in an attempt to gain an advantage over the other.

I agree that it's a great account.

However, it too is confusing: it contradicts the rules for fighting to "First Blood".  Naimless was clearly wounded first (when her shield was sheared away), since, afterwards,  "Naimless used Healing to put her fingers back in place".

[hipsterinspace]

Just now, Rodney Dangerduck said:

However, it too is confusing: it contradicts the rules for fighting to "First Blood".  Naimless was clearly wounded first (when her shield was sheared away), since, afterwards,  "Naimless used Healing to put her fingers back in place".

If you want to take it totally literally, if her fingers were broken there’s a good chance she didn’t actually lose any blood.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

As a bit of a followup to my own question, I could really see this becoming like chess openings.  A bunch of Humakti are sparring at temple, and boasting of their previous duels:

"Of course, I opened with the Ruy Lopez, best by test!  Alain countered with the Deferred Steinitz defense (each of these meaning some combination and order of rune spells and spirit magic named after a previous Humakt Hero).  My Ally launched the Duras variation".

[radmonger]

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

This spell should be banned from Humakti duels (alongside Sever Spirit) as it basically means a victory for the duelist able to pour the most magic points into the spell.

Sword trance is only broken if it gets to reduce the opponents parry chance.  I think the 'official' fix to that spell is that multiplicative modifiers don't cause parry chance reduction. But that then gets tangled in a mess of which modifiers apply in which sequence.

Honestly it is much simpler to just drop the special-case rule about skills over 100%. Maybe it was necessary to reduce combat length of a no-magic duel between fully armored western knights. But for anything in Dragon Pass, 6, or even 9, points of armor is not going to delay first blood by much. Using a great sword (2d8 + db) against an opponent without iron armour, almost all unparried hits will get though. And any special will break most things you can parry with, and quite likely get through armor afterwards. You don't even really need Truesword, unless you want to actually kill your opponent.

The standard opening to a Humakti duel, assuming no-precast magic and only cult magic, is both sides face each other pumping up their sword trance. One or the other decides enough is enough, and declares an attack. That first strike will has a ~30% chance of winning the fight right there. However, if it is parried, the one who put more into sword trance will have the long term advantage. This is generally considered the prestigious way to win, and gives the best boasting rights.

Casting enough points of shield to not take a wound from a greatsword attack is considered extravagant and perhaps cowardly, but can be effective. However, it becomes likely that some associate of the one you defeated wants to repeat the challenge, and this time they will use Truesword.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Or you dismiss the other person's Sword Trance.

[Joerg]

20 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Or you dismiss the other person's Sword Trance.

Just the one point of rune magic, or the twenty-something magic points put into the percentage?

[Zit]

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

Sword trance is only broken if it gets to reduce the opponents parry chance.  I think the 'official' fix to that spell is that multiplicative modifiers don't cause parry chance reduction.

I don't realy see why a fix would be needed here. The "above 100%" rule does not mean that the defender becomes less good at parrying, but that the attacker is so skilled that s.he becomes uneasier to parry. The defender's skill is not affected, but the attacker's. It does not contradicts Humakt's rules of honour.

[svensson]

I tend to run Humakt duels with a touch of the European code duello of the 17- and 1800s mixed with certain aspects of a Norse holmgang.

- Anyone may challenge a Humakti to a duel. The challenge must be public. To do otherwise is to plot secret murder.

- It is customary to have a neutral Humakti who is acceptable by both duelists as an observer/referee. They are in charge of enforcing the conditions of the duel. Their word is binding on all parties. In certain cases, someone other than a Humakt worshiper is allowable as the referee. Lhankor Mhy lawspeakers, Issaries heralds, and other such third parties have been used. These worthies must swear a public oath that they will abide by the law and spirit of the duel. This is often sealed by an Oath spell.

- The two duelists then set the conditions:

--- What constitutes victory? Proof of skill, first blood, submission, death, etc.

--- Is magic acceptable or  simply 'natural skill'? If magic is acceptable, what types? Are spirits allowed? etc.

--- What is the point of the duel? Honor? An apology? A piece of equipment or treasure? A specific right or privilege? Whatever this point is must be clearly stated and agreed upon by both duelists.

- Note: Humakti duels are ALWAYS settled by the sword. However, any type of sword may be matched against any other type.

- The time and place of the duel will then be set. The duel will be public; to do otherwise is to commit secret murder.

- Spectators may support either combatant by betting, words of encouragement, etc. However, once the match begins strict silence reigns. No spectator or witness may approach within arm's reach of a duelist until a victory condition is met.

- NO spectator, witness, or supporter may assist the duelists in any way, shape or form. Everything from loan of equipment to magic support is forbidden. Violators of this stricture can expect be challenged to a duel to the death on the spot.

- Once the victory conditions are met, the point of the duel [be it an apology, item, right/privilege, etc.] is exchanged. At this point the matter is concluded. No lawsuit for weregeld, no feud, no ongoing series of challenges, etc. is acceptable. What happens in the dueling circle stays in the dueling circle and results are final.

- Humakt NEVER resurrects a dead duelist.

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by svensson

[soltakss]

On 3/18/2023 at 5:13 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

We've run a lot of Humakti Duels, but always with "no magic allowed".  Pretty simple.  The disputants whack each other until somebody misses a parry, crits, or whatever.

With magic allowed, especially with Allied Spirits, it's hard to imagine all the possible tactics.  Should the quickest draw (highest DEX) just cast an attack spell for a roughly 50% chance of a win?  (Or Thunderbolt, if they have it, for a sure win?) Does it just become an accounting battle of stored magic points for your casting of Sword Trance?

Generally, Humakti wouldn't have Thunderbolt or similar spells. They have Sever Spirit but that is usually banned. Turn Undead is possible, but Humakti wouldn't normally duel Undead, unless the Undead challenged them to a duel and they had a Geas of "Always accept a duel".

On 3/18/2023 at 5:13 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

If anybody has actually run some of these, between high level combatants, any tips, "action replays", etc. would be appreciated.  @soltakss?

Normally, the combatants start with swords drawn, otherwise something like Quickdraw can be used effectively.

Our duels are normally to the first blood, so the first blow that causes damage wins. They often have no magic, or only Humakt Magic, or even no magic cast on the opponent, to counter magicians. After all, a Humakt Duel is about Honour, Sword vs Sword and that sort of thing.

Our normal rules are:

• Only Humakti Magic
• No magic to be cast on the opponent
• No poison
• First Blood (Rambo-style)

Sometimes, duels could be fought to Incapacitation, but they are serios ones, designed to counter the "Lucky Blow Win". 

I have seen Humakti who have allowed an opponent retrieve a dropped sword, or to put armour back on.

The funniest duel I saw was someone put into a gladiatorial contest in an arena, he was a Humakti with geases of "Never use Small Shield" and "Never use an Axe", so the organisers gave him a small shield and an axe, as it was funny to see him drop them when facing an armoured and armed foe in his loincloth. The combat went like this: NPC attacked, he Dodged, he Grappled the NPC, grabbing his sword arm, next round he ripped the NPC's arm off, doing something like 17 point of damage with a special STR vs STR roll, then he proceeded to club the NPC to death with the bloody end, as, in his own words, "I have always wanted to do that and I am not banned from using a club".

 

 

[jajagappa]

26 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Sometimes, duels could be fought to Incapacitation, but they are serios ones, designed to counter the "Lucky Blow Win". 

I'd probably use First Fall as First Blood likely comes quick.

[Shiningbrow]

18 hours ago, svensson said:

The duel will be public; to do otherwise is to commit secret murder.

I don't get this... especially since most duels aren't to the death. There would be nothing wrong with a non-public duel.

[Shiningbrow]

On 3/19/2023 at 2:55 AM, Joerg said:

This spell should be banned from Humakti duels ... as it basically means a victory for the duelist able to pour the most magic points into the spell.

Rubbish!

Any decent Sword Trance is going to take a round or 2 before it takes effect, and that's more than enough time to get in a hit, especially if you allow spells cast by spirits. Even a simple Befuddle is going to make that Sword Trance obsolete.

And, as @PhilHibbssaid, Dismiss works wonders! (Can you Dismiss a Rune spell while it's still charging up??)

A 1-pt Disrupt is much more likely to go off well before a Sword Trance, and and even a Shield (with a few points... and you're not putting up a 2-pt Shield for this sort of duel).

Even a thrown dagger is a quick way to end a duel.

 

(I agree with banning Sever Spirit, but I would presume that's almost always banned anyway... except for those rare duels to the death because the opponent is really evil)

[svensson]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I don't get this... especially since most duels aren't to the death. There would be nothing wrong with a non-public duel.

There is always a possibility of death in a duel. There's ALWAYS a 1% chance you could max out on a critical success in an 'instant kill' location.

The duel being public serves two purposes: a] it 'clears the air' when two people have grievances for everyone involved [family, clan, cult, etc.] and b] 'secret murder' is one of the gravest and explosive charges that can be brought before a clan ring. It publically accuses someone of not being honorable, of being a backstabber and a cheat. By inference, it also accuses the clan and its leadership of being so dishonorable that it would tolerate a murderer among them. It isn't just a matter of honorable behavior, one has to be SEEN being honorable. It's not just how one acts, it's the public perception of how one acts.... just like nowadays, huh? 😉

The public declaration of a duel and the public fighting of a duel puts the matter right out where everyone can see that it was a fair fight and not a murder. What's more it ends the grievance; there can be no familial or clan claim of weregeld or feud. Both parties agreed to the duel and everyone has to accept the duel's result, and it's all completely above-board.

Mind you, you can run Humakt duels how you like. This is just the way that I see duels at my table. Some of this comes from my SCA fighting experience, some from my historical reading, and some comes from reading how other games handle the subject of dueling. This is just how I see the custom of dueling as working best for Storm worshipers.

Edited March 20, 2023 by svensson

[Jeff]

The Humakti Duel

The nature of the Code of Humakt is such that arguments, discussions, or any sort of disagreement can be settled by a (hopefully) non-fatal duel. The cult strongly encourages such duels. The rules for these duels are few and simple:

·       Both duelists must be at least lay members of Humakt. Thus, all involved parties know that the Honor Passion will be foremost.

·       The fight is to the first fallen. After one combatant drops to the ground (e.g., through incapacitation or unconsciousness) or drops their weapon, the duel is over.

·       Any Rune or spirit magic is allowed, except for Sever Spirit. The use of allied spirits is allowed, but not that of bound spirits or other companions.

·       The loser must pay some reward to the victor, as agreed upon beforehand.

[PhilHibbs]

On 3/19/2023 at 10:51 AM, Joerg said:

Just the one point of rune magic, or the twenty-something magic points put into the percentage?

Just the one point, I'd say. In RQG now you can pump extra MP in to protect a spell from being dismissed, so that might be a good idea if you're investing 20MP in a spell, maybe put 5 of them in to prevent dismissal and live with 15 points of boost. I'm not a fan of being able to boost a spell to prevent dismissal. If you want that, cast Shield on yourself.

Also it takes a long time to cast that Sword Trance. Do you allow unlimited time before the duel to charge up your buffs?

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, svensson said:

There is always a possibility of death in a duel...

The duel being public serves two purposes: a] it 'clears the air' when two people have grievances for everyone involved [family, clan, cult, etc.] and b] 'secret murder' is one of the gravest and explosive charges that can be brought before a clan ring.

No, killing in a duel isn't secret murder. I think there's some rule that you can't pass more than two houses before approaching one of them to inform them that you just killed someone, and then it's not secret murder, not that it was murder anyway. So you should be able avoid the dead person's closest and most vengeful kin if you're worried that they will just kill you in revenge. Maybe that was a Viking rule, I might be muddling that up.

The key point is "secret". If you murder someone, you don't have to announce it to the community beforehand. You just have to admit it as soon as you can afterwards.

It's still murder, so you're open to some form of comeuppance, but not secret murder.

Edited March 20, 2023 by PhilHibbs

[soltakss]

9 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Any decent Sword Trance is going to take a round or 2 before it takes effect, and that's more than enough time to get in a hit, especially if you allow spells cast by spirits. Even a simple Befuddle is going to make that Sword Trance obsolete.

What, you don't allow your opponent to cast their spells before the duel starts? You just rush in and attack before they are ready?

9 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

And, as @PhilHibbssaid, Dismiss works wonders! (Can you Dismiss a Rune spell while it's still charging up??)

Not if the duel forbids casting spells at the opponent, a common condition.

 

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Sever Spirit is banned.  At least, it was in the Herowars era publications.  A good call.

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 3/18/2023 at 7:55 PM, Joerg said:

With Sword Trance absent, this duel is hardly applicable to RuneQuest: Roleplaying in Glorantha rules. This spell should be banned from Humakti duels (alongside Sever Spirit) as it basically means a victory for the duelist able to pour the most magic points into the spell.

from a game design perspective I agree with you, the one with the more mp is probably the winner (except tactics like @PhilHibbs and @Shiningbrow note it, so maybe powerful but not too much)

 

however, from a background perspective : sword transe = you become one with your sword, you serve your sword, you serve the Sword, you are one with the sword.

How/Why will you ban the better way to know who is the best Sword ?

 

so imo, i would say that humakti must use sword transe to prove their "sword affinity" and some choose to dismiss their oponent, to prove that their opponent's affinity is a little bit ... tenuous.

Then two tactics I can see to open the fight: 

offensive = sword transe (hoping your opponent will not hurt you during the cast) and attack;

defensive = attack before, without magic, then dismiss sword transe, hoping your armor will protect you, then show what it is a true sword man

[MOB]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

• Both duelists must be at least lay members of Humakt. Thus, all involved parties know that the Honor Passion will be foremost.
• The fight is to the first fallen. After one combatant drops to the ground (e.g., through incapacitation or unconsciousness) or drops their weapon, the duel is over.
• Any Rune or spirit magic is allowed, except for Sever Spirit. The use of allied spirits is allowed, but not that of bound spirits or other companions.
• The loser must pay some reward to the victor, as agreed upon beforehand.

Any rules, conditions or variations beyond these time-honoured basics must have the assent of both parties - for example, agreeing to not use magic in the duel, or restricting the duel to certain weapons, or banning the use of Healing, or (in extreme cases) fighting to the Death instead of first fallen, etc.

23 hours ago, svensson said:

- Anyone may challenge a Humakti to a duel.

Sure, but there's a difference between duelling with a Humakti and fighting a Humakti duel. Unless both parties are at least lay members of Humakti, they're not fighting a "Humatki Duel".

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I don't get this... especially since most duels aren't to the death. There would be nothing wrong with a non-public duel.

The Humakti doing the fighting know they're honourable. Although there are many good reasons to have such duels in public, they may not care what society thinks. 

[Akhôrahil]

On 3/19/2023 at 11:51 AM, Joerg said:

Just the one point of rune magic, or the twenty-something magic points put into the percentage?

My understanding of the current interpretation is that you don’t have to overcome the MPs used to improve the attack, but that tje caster can also put purely ”Size”-boosting MPs into it, which do have to be overcome. Since you will likely have vast amounts of MPs available, a mix is recommended, and will quickly make dispelling unfeasible.

Humakti don’t really need to duel - they can just count up MPs available and then declare the winner. Only if things are reasonably close (within say 20 MPs) does it even become a fight.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Akhôrahil